Jehovah's Witnesses

[Solo]

Well, Solo, all of that, including the "discerning/judgement" alibi I have heard so often, sounds wonderful, but as long as you can enter posts like this:

I know that we are all going to be judged, so the judge not lest ye be judged doesn't mean much to me, other than I am getting a head start judging others by the Word of God by whom we all will ultimately be judged.

and as long as you consequently demonstrate that our Saviour's words, if not some of our Saviour's most essential words, don't mean a thing ("doesn't mean much to me") to you, the ideas you and I have about Christianity differ so much, that I don't think that there is much sense in exchanges.

You misunderstand again. Your misinterpretation of the meaning of my Lord and Savior's words doesn't mean much to me. Your misunderstanding of what he was talking about is wrong. That is ok though, you have time to get the truth of it before you die. Good luck.

 

[Lonelyguide]

.
.
.
Bless you.
.
.
.

 

[Free]

I have, in different parts of this world, spent a great deal of my life studying such "disciplines" as philosophy, psychology and spirituality, I have been allowed to meet some rather unusual human beings and I have been blessed with some rather rare spiritual privileges. All of this, however, has primarily taught me that I am not young enough, Free, to believe or pretend that I know everything. I am merely old enough (nearly 56) to know how very little I know.

We are all equal, Free ... in the eyes of our Father none of us is more than another ... but there is a path and reality is that we haven't all progressed equally far on that path. Thus, some of us are somewhat better equipped to help others on their path, whereas others aren't. By the way, am I right if I say that you are about half my age?

I trust that you understand that what you now "see" in "me", Free, are merely your own projections and that these projections consequently are primarily a reflection of what resides in you.

I have had discussions with many spiritual people and have/am studying many different aspects and practices of Christian spirituality; I am not nearly as ignorant as you probably think I am. The problem I see, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that you accept all/most things spiritual even if it is contradictory to the Bible. In the face of such contradiction you simply state that there is an understanding of the Scripture that is too deep for one who is "not" spiritual.

You seem to be espousing that "all paths lead to God," at least for those who know true love and accept all without judging. But this is absolutely fatal for a Christian to believe. Again, if I am wrong, please correct me.

The more people get involved with spirituality outside of Christianity, the more they move away from Christian spirituality. This grave problem seems to be rampant among those who claim to be spiritual on these forums. To be sure there are many parallels among Christian spirituality and those of different religions, but there are some essential, fundamental differences that can lead one astray from Christianity and Christ altogether.

To claim love is most important (which it is) while ignoring the biblical mandate to judge true teaching from false, to be aware of false prophets who are accursed for preaching a false gospel, is to actually be unloving to those who need the truth.

But the main problem is this: if we cannot judge true teachings of Scripture from those that are false, we can literally throw out the Bible and believe whatever we want. Christianity and all of it's distinct claims become useless.

Please answer this one question: Are JWs truly Christian or not?

And I am a little over have your age.

 

[guibox]

Are JWs truly Christian?

If you are judging them solely based on their beliefs of the Godhead (which, face it folks, is the biggest thing and practically the ONLY thing that would classify them as a 'cult' or non-Christian) then..

No.

However, if that is the standard that you judge them by, there are many on this forum who would not be considered 'Christian' because they blatantly deny the Trinity doctrine.

There is a tendency to label groups that don't belong to the mainstream views as 'cultic'. That doesn't make them cultic.

A 'cult' is a poor word to describe the JWs unless your definition is 'One who doesn't believe in the divinity of Christ'.

The JWs believe in the divinity of Christ, just not in the Trinity.

So do many other Christians on this forum who aren't JW.

What is your definition of a 'non-Christian'?

 

[AHIMSA]

Especially when you consider that the Trinity is a post-biblical proclaimation...it can hardly be the standard by which Christians are judged.

 

[Free]

The JWs believe in the divinity of Christ, just not in the Trinity.

Be careful here, you are committing the fallacy of equivocation in the way you are using "divinity". They believe Jesus is a god but not God; they believe he is divine, but it is not divinity in the same way as the Father. That is their fatal error - Arianism.

What is your definition of a 'non-Christian'?

For starters, it would be someone who denies the full deity of Christ.

Especially when you consider that the Trinity is a post-biblical proclaimation...it can hardly be the standard by which Christians are judged.

That it was formulated "post-biblical" (something which you have to define) is irrelevant to whether or not it is a standard, a belief which is necessary for being a Christian.

 

[Solo]

No one is a Christian unless they are born of God. If they are born of God, they know Jesus is God, and they know the Holy Spirit is God, and they know God the Father. If they do not know Jesus is God they are not Christians.

 

[AHIMSA]

The trinity is an interpretation at best. No where in the Bible is this trinity mentioned. Latter church fathers determined that the Trinity was a conclusion they felt they could make based on seeing God expressed in three different ways. The earliest Christians, Paul for example, held no such belief. They were Jewish, and the trinity would have been a MAJOR redefining of God, one certainly worthy of commenting on. Yet Paul never mentions, never mind makes a case for such a thing. If Paul didnt believe in the trinity, it can hardly be an issue upon which one's salvation depends.

 

[Solo]

The trinity is an interpretation at best. No where in the Bible is this trinity mentioned. Latter church fathers determined that the Trinity was a conclusion they felt they could make based on seeing God expressed in three different ways. The earliest Christians, Paul for example, held no such belief. They were Jewish, and the trinity would have been a MAJOR redefining of God, one certainly worthy of commenting on. Yet Paul never mentions, never mind makes a case for such a thing. If Paul didnt believe in the trinity, it can hardly be an issue upon which one's salvation depends.

When you become born of God you will understand the Godhead of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Until then you are just spinning your tires.

Jesus is God

Pauls letter to the Colossians.

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; Colossians 1:15-19

Paul's letter to Titus.

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:3-4

Paul's letter to the Philippians.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:5-8

http://www.jimfeeney.org/deityofjesuschrist.html

Holy Spirit is God

Paul's letter to Timothy

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:1-5

Paul's letter to the Corinthians

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:10-16

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1 Corinthians 12:11

Paul's letter to the Romans.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11

So the Holy Spirit is a person, but in what way is He related to God. The Bible speaks of other beings with a personal nature, which God uses to accomplish His will, but who are very definitely part of the created order and so less than God Himself. What would make us regard the Holy Spirit as being anything more than a created being? There are passages in the Old Testament, which are ascribed to God, which in the New Testament are ascribed to the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 6:8ff and Acts 28:25ff, Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 10:15-16). Lying to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3) is lying to God (Acts 5:4). The Holy Spirit is omniscient (I Corinthians 2:10-11) for one can only fully know one who is omniscient by being omniscient. Though not freely poured out before Pentecost the Holy Spirit was present all through the Old Testament, speaking through the prophets, and was even then regarded as omnipresent (Psalm 139:7ff). The Spirit has supernatural power (Romans 8:11), raising Jesus from the dead and giving spiritual life to mortal bodies. Though Jesus was God, He did not do His works by His own power, rather it was by the power of the Holy Spirit He cast out demons (Matthew 12:28), preached (Luke 4:18), and healed the sick (Acts 10:38). It is no coincidence that the ministry of Jesus did not commence until after the descent of the Holy Spirit at His baptism. With Christians, all supernatural manifestations are by the power of the Spirit (I Corinthians 12:9-11), and their salvation comes from the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). The Spirit is treated as divine by being named with God and Christ in the benediction of II Corinthians 13:14, and by the baptismal formula (Matthew 28:19), where there is but one name into which people are baptized (the baptism is not into the names of, specifically), but that one name, God, has a threefold dimension (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The way Jesus regarded blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31, Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10), and what happened to those who lied to Him (Acts 5:1-10) also strongly suggest that the Holy Spirit be regarded as fully God and no less. Thus we can see why Christians have viewed it a serious heresy to ascribe any status lower than fully God to one who is in no way less than God, and since that is the clear position of the Scriptures they should continue to endorse that position vigorously. Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spiri ... testantism

 

[Lonelyguide]

I have, in different parts of this world, spent a great deal of my life studying such "disciplines" as philosophy, psychology and spirituality, I have been allowed to meet some rather unusual human beings and I have been blessed with some rather rare spiritual privileges. All of this, however, has primarily taught me that I am not young enough, Free, to believe or pretend that I know everything. I am merely old enough (nearly 56) to know how very little I know.

We are all equal, Free ... in the eyes of our Father none of us is more than another ... but there is a path and reality is that we haven't all progressed equally far on that path. Thus, some of us are somewhat better equipped to help others on their path, whereas others aren't. By the way, am I right if I say that you are about half my age?

I trust that you understand that what you now "see" in "me", Free, are merely your own projections and that these projections consequently are primarily a reflection of what resides in you.

I have had discussions with many spiritual people and have/am studying many different aspects and practices of Christian spirituality; I am not nearly as ignorant as you probably think I am. The problem I see, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that you accept all/most things spiritual even if it is contradictory to the Bible. In the face of such contradiction you simply state that there is an understanding of the Scripture that is too deep for one who is "not" spiritual.

You seem to be espousing that "all paths lead to God," at least for those who know true love and accept all without judging. But this is absolutely fatal for a Christian to believe. Again, if I am wrong, please correct me.

The more people get involved with spirituality outside of Christianity, the more they move away from Christian spirituality. This grave problem seems to be rampant among those who claim to be spiritual on these forums. To be sure there are many parallels among Christian spirituality and those of different religions, but there are some essential, fundamental differences that can lead one astray from Christianity and Christ altogether.

To claim love is most important (which it is) while ignoring the biblical mandate to judge true teaching from false, to be aware of false prophets who are accursed for preaching a false gospel, is to actually be unloving to those who need the truth.

But the main problem is this: if we cannot judge true teachings of Scripture from those that are false, we can literally throw out the Bible and believe whatever we want. Christianity and all of it's distinct claims become useless.

Please answer this one question: Are JWs truly Christian or not?

And I am a little over have your age.

I understand that for some such things as doctrine, dogma and a plethora of who's right and who's wrong subjects may be very interesting and may very well constitute their particular search for truth, but for me they are not.
I find e.g. the subject whether the JWs are truly Christian or not particularly uninteresting. And I also cannot see the point of spending too much time on that subject since most who see fit to call themselves "Christians" will ... for me ... have to make "quite a few" changes to be able to call themselves "true Christians" anyway.
No, what I think right now converges much more on such subjects like whether or not I'm going to spend some time away from this forum for a while.

 

[Free]

One of the main problems with the modern search for spirituality is that there is a false conception that orthodoxy, tradition and the Church are in error, that they have strayed from what was intended by Christ. While there are certain doctrines and practices that are questionable, it is a grave error to reject all of Christian doctrine and practice.

To be fair, I certainly see how many Christians, especially in the West, have falsely rejected spirituality and elevated theology to heights it was never meant to go. They know about God but they don't really know him. I believe in personal experience of God but that that experience must be centered around the revelation of God in Christ, a strictly Christian doctrine.

My point is that spirituality and theology should never be separated. Spirituality should find its moorings in theology but theology finds its fullest expression in spirituality and should lead one to personally experience Christ in the fullest. Theology and spirituality are mutually dependent. A spirituality based on an errant theology will only lead into more error - wrong belief leads to wrong practice.

You are right in that we must seek Christ within and love everyone above ourself, that is a biblical mandate. However, it is also commanded that we are to "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19) and "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 1:3). To know the truth and live it, share it and defend it are central to the Christian faith.

I have to write a research paper for which I have chosen the heresy of Sabellianism. But after that I plan on reading Madame Guyon's Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ.

There must be a balance.

 

[Lonelyguide]

There must be a balance.

Everything oscillates around an "elastic" state of balance ... always ... even if we don't always see it.

As for what you say about spreading the Gospel: the men Jesus sent had somewhat of an understanding (Jesus at one point said that there were certain things they might understand much later) but had understood some key principles. They were sent ... they had a true mandate ... they came from a place of Love. I see many whose understanding is questionable to say the least and whose actions show that they believe that their love and their words can be a substitute for Holy Spirit.

I ignore, Free, what you have hitherto been allowed to experience. Whatever it may be ... I wish you ... and everyone else ... to one day experience what it has been my privilege to experience or, at least, to have experiences of a similar order. All I can say: everything is so much more beautiful than people can fathom and ... it will change people's thinking to an extent they now consider to be unimagineable.

 

[Solo]

I have, in different parts of this world, spent a great deal of my life studying such "disciplines" as philosophy, psychology and spirituality, I have been allowed to meet some rather unusual human beings and I have been blessed with some rather rare spiritual privileges. All of this, however, has primarily taught me that I am not young enough, Free, to believe or pretend that I know everything. I am merely old enough (nearly 56) to know how very little I know.

We are all equal, Free ... in the eyes of our Father none of us is more than another ... but there is a path and reality is that we haven't all progressed equally far on that path. Thus, some of us are somewhat better equipped to help others on their path, whereas others aren't. By the way, am I right if I say that you are about half my age?

I trust that you understand that what you now "see" in "me", Free, are merely your own projections and that these projections consequently are primarily a reflection of what resides in you.

I have had discussions with many spiritual people and have/am studying many different aspects and practices of Christian spirituality; I am not nearly as ignorant as you probably think I am. The problem I see, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that you accept all/most things spiritual even if it is contradictory to the Bible. In the face of such contradiction you simply state that there is an understanding of the Scripture that is too deep for one who is "not" spiritual.

You seem to be espousing that "all paths lead to God," at least for those who know true love and accept all without judging. But this is absolutely fatal for a Christian to believe. Again, if I am wrong, please correct me.

The more people get involved with spirituality outside of Christianity, the more they move away from Christian spirituality. This grave problem seems to be rampant among those who claim to be spiritual on these forums. To be sure there are many parallels among Christian spirituality and those of different religions, but there are some essential, fundamental differences that can lead one astray from Christianity and Christ altogether.

To claim love is most important (which it is) while ignoring the biblical mandate to judge true teaching from false, to be aware of false prophets who are accursed for preaching a false gospel, is to actually be unloving to those who need the truth.

But the main problem is this: if we cannot judge true teachings of Scripture from those that are false, we can literally throw out the Bible and believe whatever we want. Christianity and all of it's distinct claims become useless.

Please answer this one question: Are JWs truly Christian or not?

And I am a little over have your age.

I understand that for some such things as doctrine, dogma and a plethora of who's right and who's wrong subjects may be very interesting and may very well constitute their particular search for truth, but for me they are not.
I find e.g. the subject whether the JWs are truly Christian or not particularly uninteresting. And I also cannot see the point of spending too much time on that subject since most who see fit to call themselves "Christians" will ... for me ... have to make "quite a few" changes to be able to call themselves "true Christians" anyway.
No, what I think right now converges much more on such subjects like whether or not I'm going to spend some time away from this forum for a while.

Then you won't be any good at seeking out the lost to pray for them and instruct them in truth. You will not be able to follow the Lord Jesus Christ in being about the business of the Father since your own interpretation of reality is more important than his. Your posts show perfectly clear your personal selfishness towards keeping yourself in accordance with your misinterpretations of the Word of God. Get saved and you will have a whole world of life open up before you, and you will desire to insure that others do not go into eternity separated from almighty God.

 

[Free]

Lonelyguide,

This is what you said in your "JUDGEMENT" thread:

"The second is the one I mentioned in the Bodisattva thread: by placing a brother outside of the Kingdom, one places oneself out off it!"

And you just stated this:

"And I also cannot see the point of spending too much time on that subject since most who see fit to call themselves "Christians" will ... for me ... have to make "quite a few" changes to be able to call themselves "true Christians" anyway."

Have you not just "placed yourself out of the Kingdom"? Why is it you say I'm wrong for judging whether or not JWs are Christian, but you can pass the same judgement on "most who see fit to call themselves 'Christians'" and it isn't judgement?

I'm just trying to figure your position out since from my standpoint it is completely contradictory.

 

[Lonelyguide]

Lonelyguide,

This is what you said in your "JUDGEMENT" thread:

"The second is the one I mentioned in the Bodisattva thread: by placing a brother outside of the Kingdom, one places oneself out off it!"

And you just stated this:

"And I also cannot see the point of spending too much time on that subject since most who see fit to call themselves "Christians" will ... for me ... have to make "quite a few" changes to be able to call themselves "true Christians" anyway."

Have you not just "placed yourself out of the Kingdom"? Why is it you say I'm wrong for judging whether or not JWs are Christian, but you can pass the same judgement on "most who see fit to call themselves 'Christians'" and it isn't judgement?

I'm just trying to figure your position out since from my standpoint it is completely contradictory.

No, it isn't. Did what Christ said to and about the Pharisees constitute judgement or was it sharing c.q. instruction intended to make people see? I am sure that He didn't say things from a place of ego. Be that as it may, I said what I said knowing that there might indeed be a price to pay and hoping that my offer would not be in vain.

Incidentally ... I edited my last post ... added a bit to my previous words about Luke 14:33 ... in the General Talk's JUDGEMENT thread. Perhaps it makes more sense to you now: http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=19231

 

[AHIMSA]

I'm sorry, but Paul did NOT believe in a trinity. You can pull all kinds of quotes that hint of him beliving in a kind of divine presence in Christ, but that doens't mean he believed Jesus was God in the trinitarian sense. The trinity is an interpretation decided upon by a council. It was a solution to the problem of "How can we say Jesus was divine and still be monotheistic?"

The word "trinity" is never mentioned in the Bible, and remember, the first Christians were Jews, who for generation upon generation, worshiped Yahweh. The idea of a Trinity never entered the Jewish mindset. If Paul thought believing in a trinity was neccessary for one's salvation, it would certainly have been worth mentioning.


I'm not saying this disproves the Trinity, I am saying, at best, it was a realization that came much after the time of Paul....and therefore can not be neccessary for salvation.

 

[Solo]

I'm sorry, but Paul did NOT believe in a trinity. You can pull all kinds of quotes that hint of him beliving in a kind of divine presence in Christ, but that doens't mean he believed Jesus was God in the trinitarian sense. The trinity is an interpretation decided upon by a council. It was a solution to the problem of "How can we say Jesus was divine and still be monotheistic?"

The word "trinity" is never mentioned in the Bible, and remember, the first Christians were Jews, who for generation upon generation, worshiped Yahweh. The idea of a Trinity never entered the Jewish mindset. If Paul thought believing in a trinity was neccessary for one's salvation, it would certainly have been worth mentioning.


I'm not saying this disproves the Trinity, I am saying, at best, it was a realization that came much after the time of Paul....and therefore can not be neccessary for salvation.

You definitely do not know God or the Bible scriptures that show the truth behind the diety of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It does not surprise me as many unsaved individuals worldwide have the same opinion. I would suggest that you repent, believe the Word, and follow Jesus; otherwise you will not see the Kingdom of God, nor will you enter into it.

 

[AHIMSA]

Please explain why Paul never mentioned this significant concept of a trinity, and why he did not feel it was neccessary to make a case for such a drastic re-definition of God to the Jews. Obviosuly the Jews wouldn't have just blindly re-defined their God, so how come Paul makes NO attempts to convince them of the Trinity?

 

[Khristeeanos]

So, uh.....




um....................







I was just wondering..,,.,..,..,..,.,..,.,..,.,..,.,..,











Does anybody care to get this thread back on topic so I can be a witness to these people when they come.





PLEASE!!!!!!!

 

[Free]

Sure. :D

Did you have any specific questions or responses to my first post?