Bible Study Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't want to argue with you, I luv ya bro, but, when/if, question is doubt.

That's exactly what I'm pointing out. How can Eugene say,"some are not even assured of that in their faith"? By definition you're not 'in your faith' if you don't have the assurance of faith. He's saying 'some people who have faith don't have faith'. That's a contradictory statement.

Just stop, take some time and think about it, there is nothing to be afraid of in thinking about it from different view points....

You either have faith in God, or you don't. You can not 'not have faith within your faith'.

Ask yourself, what could possibly cause you to question God's forgiveness?

What can cause you to question God's forgiveness? Love of sin. It's interesting that rejection of the truth always ends up as not believing the truth, not simply deciding not to embrace it. IOW, it's impossible to retain knowledge of truth that you reject. That's why it's impossible to make the statement 'some are not eve assured of that (salvation) in their faith'.

My point is, it's not our (my) faith, it's the faith Father gives to us when we are born again, and His faith will never fail us....

Of course the gift of faith can never fail. What fails is our trust in what God has shown us through the gift of faith to be true. And that happens in Christians when they start entertaining other loves. For, as I say, love of other things always eventually manifests itself as unbelief. This is by God's design. He eventually withdraws the knowledge of the truth from those who reject it so as to leave them no choice but to not be able to believe that truth.

....bro, it's ALL Him and nothing of us, the only part we have in this is the decision we made at the beginning.

Almost. It's also about any decisions we make afterward. A sanctified believer has nothing left to look forward to but the Judgment of the enemies of God if they stop trusting in God for a salvation--which they can not earn on their own-- because of a love of sin that wins out over their love for God.

Eugene, I'm helping you out. Please fix the contradiction in your statement. You can't have faith and not have faith at the same time.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I wrote, Israel looked for a different promise of the kingdom than us, and why?

Because the church spiritualized what the Israelites knew to be quite literal. We're the ones who changed away to something different.

 

[reba]

A forum for Bible study discussions.
This is not a debate forum.
Admin
Holding the line between debate and discussion is not easy... one thing that helps is NO PERSONAL REMARKS...

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.. matter of fact i wrote this from page one...

 

[Eugene]

How can Eugene say,"some are not even assured of that in their faith"? By definition you're not 'in your faith' if you don't have the assurance of faith. He's saying 'some people who have faith don't have faith'. That's a contradictory statement.
You either have faith in God, or you don't. You can not 'not have faith within your faith'.

Eugene, I'm helping you out. Please fix the contradiction in your statement. You can't have faith and not have faith at the same time.

Brother Jethro Bodine, us old people can use all the help we can get.
There is weak faith, dead faith, and those not absolutely secure in WHO keeps us regardless of the quality of our faith.
Faith is faith be it strong, diminished, or absent from the sight of men.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

God hath Rom 12:3 . . God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. What happens to our faith that allows us to sin on purpose? Is our flesh that strong?
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

1 Cor 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Thanks for your question.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Brother Jethro Bodine, us old people can use all the help we can get.
There is weak faith, dead faith, and those not absolutely secure in WHO keeps us regardless of the quality of our faith.
Faith is faith be it strong, diminished, or absent from the sight of men.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

God hath Rom 12:3 . . God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. What happens to our faith that allows us to sin on purpose? Is our flesh that strong?
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

1 Cor 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Thanks for your question.

This is what you said in your article: "some are not even assured of that (their salvation--see context) in their faith."

If you don't have the assurance of faith then you can't at the same time be in the faith, for that is the very definition of faith--being sure of what you can't see. Not looking for a debate. I'm just pointing out a contradiction in your article which I presume you're going to post somewhere on the interweb.

 

[Eugene]

This is what you said in your article: "some are not even assured of that (their salvation--see context) in their faith."

If you don't have the assurance of faith then you can't at the same time be in the faith, for that is the very definition of faith--being sure of what you can't see. Not looking for a debate. I'm just pointing out a contradiction in your article which I presume you're going to post somewhere on the interweb.

I have no problem with your analysis. I believe one way, and you another, and yet God receives us both.
Rom 14:3,6 says some even only eat certain things, and some observe days unto the LORD, and others do none of these and God receives them.

You speak of those not assured of their faith not having faith if I'm understanding you correctly, and I have repeatedly read the questions, and the testimonies of those wondering if they're still saved after finding themselves walking after the flesh instead of the Spirit. Rom 8:4. Therein lies a problem with their knowledge of these scriptures. God says that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled IN US (not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. As they grow in grace and knowledge of our LORD. Sooner or later if they learn the armor provided us in Ephesian Chapter Six, take it to them and fight the good fight of faith, their conscience no longer condemns them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have no problem with your analysis. I believe one way, and you another, and yet God receives us both.
Rom 14:3,6 says some even only eat certain things, and some observe days unto the LORD, and others do none of these and God receives them.

You speak of those not assured of their faith not having faith if I'm understanding you correctly, and I have repeatedly read the questions, and the testimonies of those wondering if they're still saved after finding themselves walking after the flesh instead of the Spirit. Rom 8:4. Therein lies a problem with their knowledge of these scriptures. God says that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled IN US (not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. As they grow in grace and knowledge of our LORD. Sooner or later if they learn the armor provided us in Ephesian Chapter Six, take it to them and fight the good fight of faith, their conscience no longer condemns them.

Faith by definition is "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1 NASB). So when you say "some are not even assured of that (their salvation--what they can not see) in their faith" how is the lack of assurance of what they can not see (their salvation) somehow being in their faith? That's all. No debate. Just asking. Maybe you need to reword that in your treatise to remove the contradiction. As it is, you're saying, "those who have faith but don't have faith". It can't be both ways.

 

[Eugene]

Faith by definition is "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1 NASB). So when you say "some are not even assured of that (their salvation--what they can not see) in their faith" how is the lack of assurance of what they can not see (their salvation) somehow being in their faith? That's all. No debate. Just asking. Maybe you need to reword that in your treatise to remove the contradiction. As it is, you're saying, "those who have faith but don't have faith". It can't be both ways.

Can't argue that, and with the slightest possibility of failure of turning back, sin (a sin offering) lieth at the door as with Cain in Gen 4:7. It is of a surety none are without the need of Jesus, and once in Christ is there assurance in them, or He who died for them? To me I don't see the choice being other than God unto I have committed my life. I remain unswayed that there are different qualities of faith even to failure, and Peter heard the cock crow.
Mat 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
Mat 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I remain unswayed that there are different qualities of faith even to failure...

The point being a person can't fail in their faith and still be in their faith. That's a contradiction.

 

[Karl]

Jethro, dear brother, I understand perfectly what you are saying, I was saved in a domination that teaches we can lose our salvation, completely and totally indoctrinated for over two years, was even being urged by the pastor to go to their seminary to learn more fully their doctrine, receive their degree and approbation to become one of their pastors, but our Heavenly Father intervened in my life and moved me out of that church to Nevada where the only different game in town was a very small non-denominational church where I first heard grace being taught and experienced first hand the love of Christ in the brethren.

As a teenager I was ODed and was dying, I knew when I died I would be in Hell, to this day I don't have any words in my vocabulary to fully express my fear, terror and horror of that experience, the point is, when I was hearing from the pulpit I could loose my salvation and go to Hell (because of my teenage experience), ...every Sunday night I went to the alter to be saved again along with many others in the church, ...I never had any peace, never experienced the peace and joy of the Lord, ...just like the rest of the congregation, ...that is what amazed me in the second church, everyone was at peace and filled with the joy of the Lord.

During that time the Holy Spirit taught me His meaning of every verse the pastor had used, out of context, to say we could lose our salvation.

He also gave me a question for those that say we can lose our salvation that those that believe that way have never been able to answer in the last 27 years.

All I'm asking is to consider what we are saying, the idea of walking away from my loving Heavenly Father never enters my mind, ...where would I go? And even if I accidentally sin, or even plan to sin (not that I want to, but I still have my carnal nature living inside of me and yes I do stumble Rom 7:18-20, but my Father knows my heart and my love for Him Gen 22:12) they have all been covered by the Blood of Christ, placed in a sack and thrown into the deepest part of the ocean never to be remembered by Father again and separated from me like the East is from the West, 1,917 years ago. ...almost two centuries before I was born.

Jesus asked this question,

What man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Mat 7:9-11

Saying we can lose our salvation is like saying our Heavenly Father is worse than a human father, ...offering us His salvation and then taking it away from us?

Like I said, it's not my faith that keeps me saved (that's work oriented salvation) it's the faith given to me by my Father that keeps me saved, and that is and comes from grace.

 

[Karl]

The point being a person can't fail in their faith and still be in their faith. That's a contradiction.

That's what I'm saying, our faith will always falter, we are not saved by our faith, we are saved by the faith Father gives to us Eph 2:8, and that faith will never fail, it can't, ...it's God's faith.

 

[Eugene]

The point being a person can't fail in their faith and still be in their faith. That's a contradiction.

Dear Brother Jethro Bodine, possibly another way of saying this is to say we have different faiths, but the hope we have is based on the work of our same Savior. To me David below knew the answer to his own lack, and went right back to God whose faithfulness never failed.
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Like I said, it's not my faith that keeps me saved (that's work oriented salvation) it's the faith given to me by my Father that keeps me saved, and that is and comes from grace.

Somewhere along the line trust in God--the trust Abraham had--became a damnable work of trying to justify oneself. We have moved far, far away from the gospel message.