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Jesus is God and Savior

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Jesus is our God and our Savior. The Scripture is clear.


9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Titus 2:9-14 NKJV


God is Love and the greatest Love of eternity is God.

He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:8 NKJV

13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another. James 15:13-17 NKJV


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Quite true, and I notice you posted the Scripture that is in my signature.
 
Nocturnal_Principal_X said:
Quite true, and I notice you posted the Scripture that is in my signature.
An exceptional verse, if I say so myself while in the Spirit! :biggrin
 
It can't get any clearer. It's really quite sad that some people just can't realise this.
 
I wrote something on Titus 2:13 today (for a different Christian forum, albeit, so ignore references to names etc). Hope you guys find this insightful:

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the [definite article, tou] great God and [conjunction, kai] our Saviour Jesus Christ

Granville Sharp's rule:

[quote:c7a01]"When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description, respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connexion, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill,] if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e., it denotes a farther description of the first named person."

This is nothing new, but I wanted to bring it to light and perhaps gain insight from those who know Greek (only James does, I believe) or have resources (commentaries from authorities and scholars of ancient Koine Greek) or contacts to those who do know the language.

But anyway, I will explain, as best as I know how, what is meant by this virtually undisputed rule of Greek grammar and how it ties in to the passage quoted. Basically we are concerned with two descriptive nouns (this rule has exceptions with proper nouns) in this passage: 1) "[great] God" and 2) "Saviour [Jesus Christ]". Is the "great God" referring to "Saviour Yeshua ha Mashiach" in this verse, or are they separated by the conjunction kai (and)?

Well, according to this rule, since the two nouns are connected by the conjunction kai, and the definite article tou precedes the first noun ("God"), but is not used before the second noun ("Saviour"), i.e. between the two nouns, then the second noun is a further description of the first noun, i.e. "Saviour [Jesus Christ]" is describing the "great God". They are not separate subjects because of the conjunction, but are combined with the same definite article which precedes the first noun. Only if the definite article was repeated again after the first noun would they be separate.

So if the verse read like this:

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and the Saviour Jesus Christ

...Then it would be referring to two different individuals, but the absence of another definite article "the" disallows this interpretation. According to my knowledge, throughout the NT there is NO exception to this rule--ever (see also 2 Peter 1:1).

Consider another example:

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus

No one would dispute that the apostle [noun 1] and high priest [noun 2] are referring to the same individual (Yeshua), and are not describing two persons, as in one person is an apostle, and another person is a high priest. The Greek simply does not allow it. If the verse read, "the Apostle and the High Priest..." then things would be different.

No one can dispute the grammar of Tit. 2:13 or 2 Pet. 1:1. The only objection to the Messiah not being called "God" as in "YHWH", would be to say theos (here in the genitive theou) refers, not to YHWH, but is used as it is used of men such as in Ps. 82:6 or of Moses in Ex. 7:1.

The problem with this interpretation, imo, is the use of the adjective "great" as in "great God", especially the great God. The scripture says:

Psalm 95:3
For YHWH is a great God, and a great King above all gods.

While it is true that men and angels are called "god" (elohim) in scripture, it is quite a stretch to say that anyone other than Yahweh can be called "great God". Other scriptures that refer to Yeshua as "God" can be argued that way, but not this one. And if the authors' of the bible intents were never for us to assume that Yeshua shared an ontological nature with the Father and so is considered YHWH, then they came dangerously close to doing so quite frequently by applying the titles and attributes of Yahweh to him and tying scriptures that speak of Yahweh to him.

So I can safely conclude that Yeshua, the fully divine manifest presence and character of the Father Yahweh is also Yahweh and thus God (as only Yahweh is God, that is, big "G").

HOWEVER, just to be fair, I have heard what seems to be a credible objection to the general conclusion drawn from Titus 2:13. The verse literally speaks of the "blessed hope and revealing of the glory...", not "glorious appearing" as the KJV renders it. So in essence, the passage is not saying Yeshua is the "great God and our Saviour", but that we are "waiting for the manifestation of the glory of the great God and our Saviour, Yeshua Ha Mashiach". In other words, Christ is described as the glory of the great God and our Saviour and not the great God and our Saviour himself, and that this is allowed by the Greek.

I wanted to know, specifically from JamesYuile (who knows Greek), whether or not this interpretation is uninhibited by the Greek.

Thanks for reading. [/quote:c7a01]
 
Johny said:
It can't get any clearer. It's really quite sad that some people just can't realise this.
It can't get any clearer to believers, but the unbelieving have always had a problem coming to the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ as is exhibited daily on this forum.
 
Solo said:
Johny said:
It can't get any clearer. It's really quite sad that some people just can't realise this.
It can't get any clearer to believers, but the unbelieving have always had a problem coming to the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ as is exhibited daily on this forum.


AMEN
 
Solo said:
It can't get any clearer to believers, but the unbelieving have always had a problem coming to the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ as is exhibited daily on this forum.

I agree. That's the major reason I don't spend much time here.
 
Johny said:
I agree. That's the major reason I don't spend much time here.
Johny,
This is even more reason why you need to be here. I just sighned on and am learning but I can sure use the encouragement simply from you being here. I appreciate solo and the other Christians very much. Since I am new I can't really stand up to many of these false teachers that try and sway young but old sheep like me away. I am just learning the concept of the trinity and thanks to Solo and jgred its clear for me now.
thanks oscar
 
vic said:
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Vic
Thats a great verse that supports Jesus is GOD!
Oscar
 
Here is the direct translation of Titus 2:13 as it is found in Green’s Greek-English New Testament Interlinear, Third Edition, Baker Publishing,

expecting the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of the great God and Savior of us Jesus Christ

The RSV renders the text,
awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

The same sense is repeated in Titus 3:4,
But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,

The kindness and love of God our Savior appeared in the form of Christ and in the same way we await our blessed hope and the appearance of the glory of our great God, by way of Christ.

Placing verses 13 and 14 together with punctuation and emphasis results in the following,

awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

This is consistent with the following texts,

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation (Colosians 1:15).

Christ, who is the image of God (2 Corintihians 4:4c).

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him (John 1:18).

who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person (Hebrews 1:3).

The Bible is consistent as the texts prove. Titus does not declare Christ to be Almighty God in 2:13 nor does any other Scripture in the Bible.

R7-12
 
Thomas said,
“My kurios and my theos!â€Â

Satan is also a theos as per 2 Corinthians 4:4. Therefore to apply the same kind of reasoning that Trinitarians apply to John 20:28 requires Satan to be God just as Christ is God. It cannot be avoided or explained away – it says exactly what it says. What is not understood is the how the word theos is used and the meaning and usage of its Hebrew equivalent, elohim.

Jesus Christ is the head of the church and is an elohim or theos but he is not ton theon or THE God, just as he is not haElohim who is the head of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:3).

R7-12
 
But Thomas was speaking to Jesus, not satan. Just about all translators made the G in John 20:28 a capital G and the G in 2 Corinthians 4:4 a lower case g. Are you claiming they were wrong in doing so?

Thomas was a Jew. To call anyone God if they weren't would be blasphemy. Hmm, they even tried to stone Jesus for the alleged crime of blasphemy.

John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

That was right after Jesus claimed to be I "Am".
 
Understanding is lost in the definition and usage of words through translation.

How many meanings and posible applications can you think of for the English word God compared to what is known concerning the Greek theos and espcially the Hebrew elohim?

Whether translators choose to capitalize the "g" in the English word god or not, is entirely a matter of interpretation. It has no effect on the intended meaning of the source text.

If theos is required to apply only to Almighty God as it is inferred by those who cite Thomas' words to Christ, what prohibits the same application when used of Satan?

R7-12
 
R7-12 said:
Thomas said,
“My kurios and my theos!â€Â

Satan is also a theos as per 2 Corinthians 4:4. Therefore to apply the same kind of reasoning that Trinitarians apply to John 20:28 requires Satan to be God just as Christ is God. It cannot be avoided or explained away – it says exactly what it says. What is not understood is the how the word theos is used and the meaning and usage of its Hebrew equivalent, elohim.

Jesus Christ is the head of the church and is an elohim or theos but he is not ton theon or THE God, just as he is not haElohim who is the head of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:3).

R7-12


R7-12
I have just spent the past hour reading many of your post.
I have decided that you are a false teacher. Why are you making things up?
Why have you not answered my other questions?
Why do you twist the glorias scriptures?
Why do you pick and choose what questions you will answer.
Why do you want to take away Jesus Glory?
There are many warnings through out the scriptures of people like you.
This rebuke is very much out of my Character but the bible says to expose people like you. Unitarium beliefs have proven to be heretical through out history. Why are you even on a Christian forum. This forum is for Christ followers and your not a christ follower.
I along with many others will await your reply.

God Bless Oscar
 
vic said:
But Thomas was speaking to Jesus, not satan. Just about all translators made the G in John 20:28 a capital G and the G in 2 Corinthians 4:4 a lower case g. Are you claiming they were wrong in doing so?

Vic, who is doing the translating? Of course trinitarian translators would capitalize...

Thomas was a Jew. To call anyone God if they weren't would be blasphemy.

Agreed......but to call someone Theos in the context of "representative" as defined by strongs...isn't blaspheme...

Hmm, they even tried to stone Jesus for the alleged crime of blasphemy.

John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

That was right after Jesus claimed to be I "Am".

I need to point out 3 things for consideration...

1. John 20:28
Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

theos {theh'-os}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 3:65,322 of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity
Part of Speech
n m
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

2) the Godhead, trinity

a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity

b) Christ, the second person of the trinity

c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

3) spoken of the only and true God

a) refers to the things of God

b) his counsels, interests, things due to him

4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way

a) God's representative or viceregent


1) of magistrates and judges


Theos...can mean God's viceregent, or representative.....


2. Jesus can claim that he was before Abraham...As the Word (Hebrew Memra), he was before Abraham....

3. The Memra is God's creative word and by definition (See http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com article on the Memra) is tha "Agent or representative of God" and fits Theos as defined (in bold) above.

4. According to the "Jewish Law of Agency" as found in http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com article on the (Agency, Law of), states that a man's agent is as himself.....



From a Jewish perspective....I believe..
 
Vic, who is doing the translating? Of course trinitarian translators would capitalize...
Then find me a translation other than the so-called "trinitarian" versions.

Here, I will even give you one from the JWs NWT.

"In answer Thomas said to Him [Jesus] "My Lord and my God!"
 
Solo said:

Jesus is our God and our Savior. The Scripture is clear.

Yep it is very clear. God is our God and Jesus is our Saviour to bring us to God. I will show you the clear interpretation of the scriptures as they were intended, without any "trinity" translation required.

Let me start by saying I have noticed the original KJV scriptures have been altered in the NKJV to read something completely different.

Solo said:
9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.

God our saviour in all things. This is pin-pointing the clear authority by which we are saved in all things - God. There is no mention of Jesus in this verse because it is keeping the message clear that God is the saviour in all things. How can I say this, well lets take a look at the following scripture you quoted.

Solo said:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

The grace of God that "brings" salvation has appeared to all men. THE GRACE OF GOD. Again clear reference to the source of the message - no mention of the messenger yet. For it is the grace of God which appeared to all men in the shape of his ultimate messenger - his son.

And this is revealed in the next verse you quoted.

Solo said:
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Did you mis-quote the NKJV or have the scriptures been altered that much from the original KJV, for mine clearly reads the difference between Father and Son. "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" Titus 2:13

With a little tweaking the all important "our" has been relocated from between God and Jesus, to before God. In this way it reads as if the two are indeed the same identity. Yet the original KJV reads God as the great God and the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ. Two beings in which we look for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of.

Funny how times change to read different meanings from scripture. :wink:

Solo said:
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

This is what Jesus did through the grace and authority of God. Why? Because he gave himself for us; but the verses preceding this one indicates from whom the power comes from. God is the Saviour in all things while Jesus gave Himself for us that we may be redeemed.

Solo said:
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Titus 2:9-14 NKJV

Yes but do we speak these things from the original KJV or from the NKJV? Surely you do not believe the KJV got it so wrong that it needed "tweaking"? Clearly the original message declared that God was The great God and Jesus Christ our Saviour for the specific purpose of our redemption?

If you believe the KJV got it wrong then why stop there? Why not go as far back as Jesus himself; who obviously got it wrong when saying he was the Son of God, when he really WAS God. I guess you've already crossed that line though and this is why we're having this discussion about the correct translation of scripture.

For the sake of other readers however, I would like to quote your scriptures (NKJV) again, but this time add mine (in read) which come from the original KJV bible.

Solo said:
9 Exhort bondservants (Exhort servants) to be obedient to (unto) their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things (and to please them well in all things), not answering back (again), 10 not pilfering (purloining), but showing (shewing) all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.11 For the grace of God that brings (bringeth) salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age (in this present world, 13 looking for the (that) blessed hope and (the) glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ), 14 who gave Himself (h) for us, that He (h) might redeem us from every lawless deed (all iniquity) and purify for (unto) Himself (h) His own special people, zealous for good works (a peculiar people, zealous of good works).15 Speak these things (These things speak), exhort (and exhort), and rebuke with all authority. Let no one (man) despise you (thee). Titus 2:9-14 NKJV

Notice how I have bolded the word "them" way up back in verse 9? The KJV was in reference to masters(s) the plural and were encouraging servants (not bondservants) to please them in all things. It struck me that the NKJV has removed the word "them" reference so that people cannot readily identify it with God AND Jesus who are identified as two later on in the passage.

Which I have also bolded the word "and" way back up in verse 13, for it clearly distinguishes between the God and Jesus Christ.

In verse twelve notice the two words I have bolded as well. How it has gone from this "world" to this "age" in the NKJV. It makes the verse seem applicable to that generation when the KJV makes it applicalbe to this world - not of his kingdom. Funny how the simplist word changes can bring a totally different meaning.

Like I said though, if you're willing to accept what the NKJV says over the KJV, then why not take it all the way to the top - God's own messenger and change what he said about being the Son of God and God his father, to mean they were the same being.

Nothing new here. For even the enemy tried to use "what was written" to temp Jesus into changing the message God had intented for mankind. Trying to make it about him (Jesus) and not his Father's authority.
 
Klee shay said:
Solo said:

Jesus is our God and our Savior. The Scripture is clear.

Yep it is very clear. God is our God and Jesus is our Saviour to bring us to God. I will show you the clear interpretation of the scriptures as they were intended, without any "trinity" translation required.

Let me start by saying I have noticed the original KJV scriptures have been altered in the NKJV to read something completely different.

Solo said:
9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.

God our saviour in all things. This is pin-pointing the clear authority by which we are saved in all things - God. There is no mention of Jesus in this verse because it is keeping the message clear that God is the saviour in all things. How can I say this, well lets take a look at the following scripture you quoted.

Solo said:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

The grace of God that "brings" salvation has appeared to all men. THE GRACE OF GOD. Again clear reference to the source of the message - no mention of the messenger yet. For it is the grace of God which appeared to all men in the shape of his ultimate messenger - his son.

And this is revealed in the next verse you quoted.

Solo said:
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Did you mis-quote the NKJV or have the scriptures been altered that much from the original KJV, for mine clearly reads the difference between Father and Son. "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" Titus 2:13

With a little tweaking the all important "our" has been relocated from between God and Jesus, to before God. In this way it reads as if the two are indeed the same identity. Yet the original KJV reads God as the great God and the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ. Two beings in which we look for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of.

Funny how times change to read different meanings from scripture. :wink:

Solo said:
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

This is what Jesus did through the grace and authority of God. Why? Because he gave himself for us; but the verses preceding this one indicates from whom the power comes from. God is the Saviour in all things while Jesus gave Himself for us that we may be redeemed.

Solo said:
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Titus 2:9-14 NKJV

Yes but do we speak these things from the original KJV or from the NKJV? Surely you do not believe the KJV got it so wrong that it needed "tweaking"? Clearly the original message declared that God was The great God and Jesus Christ our Saviour for the specific purpose of our redemption?

If you believe the KJV got it wrong then why stop there? Why not go as far back as Jesus himself; who obviously got it wrong when saying he was the Son of God, when he really WAS God. I guess you've already crossed that line though and this is why we're having this discussion about the correct translation of scripture.

For the sake of other readers however, I would like to quote your scriptures (NKJV) again, but this time add mine (in read) which come from the original KJV bible.

Solo said:
9 Exhort bondservants (Exhort servants) to be obedient to (unto) their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things (and to please them well in all things), not answering back (again), 10 not pilfering (purloining), but showing (shewing) all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.11 For the grace of God that brings (bringeth) salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age (in this present world, 13 looking for the (that) blessed hope and (the) glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ), 14 who gave Himself (h) for us, that He (h) might redeem us from every lawless deed (all iniquity) and purify for (unto) Himself (h) His own special people, zealous for good works (a peculiar people, zealous of good works).15 Speak these things (These things speak), exhort (and exhort), and rebuke with all authority. Let no one (man) despise you (thee). Titus 2:9-14 NKJV

Notice how I have bolded the word "them" way up back in verse 9? The KJV was in reference to masters(s) the plural and were encouraging servants (not bondservants) to please them in all things. It struck me that the NKJV has removed the word "them" reference so that people cannot readily identify it with God AND Jesus who are identified as two later on in the passage.

Which I have also bolded the word "and" way back up in verse 13, for it clearly distinguishes between the God and Jesus Christ.

In verse twelve notice the two words I have bolded as well. How it has gone from this "world" to this "age" in the NKJV. It makes the verse seem applicable to that generation when the KJV makes it applicalbe to this world - not of his kingdom. Funny how the simplist word changes can bring a totally different meaning.

Like I said though, if you're willing to accept what the NKJV says over the KJV, then why not take it all the way to the top - God's own messenger and change what he said about being the Son of God and God his father, to mean they were the same being.

Nothing new here. For even the enemy tried to use "what was written" to temp Jesus into changing the message God had intented for mankind. Trying to make it about him (Jesus) and not his Father's authority.

When you become a child of God after being born of God you will know God in his fulness. Jesus is God just as the Word of God reveals. Until then you are ignorant of who God the Father and God the Son are.

By the way, who was satan tempting in the wilderness? Jesus Christ. What did Jesus tell satan when being tempted?

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Matthew 4:7

.
 

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