Jesus is Michael the Archangel!

[handy]

Jason, it is hard to pin down specific words...which is why "thought to thought" translations...which admittedly have some "cons"...have some "pros" as well...

However, the main thrust of what I'm getting at here is whatever Zechariah related the Lord was getting onto Satan about...either accusing, opposing, resisting...whatever...it was over Joshua the High Priest, not about Moses' body.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, it is hard to pin down specific words...which is why "thought to thought" translations...which admittedly have some "cons"...have some "pros" as well...

However, the main thrust of what I'm getting at here is whatever Zechariah related the Lord was getting onto Satan about...either accusing, opposing, resisting...whatever...it was over Joshua the High Priest, not about Moses' body.

yes but the issue was that zechariah and jude have the person saying the same thing. the lord or messenger of the lord in the ot is still in a sense a messenger in translational use(though i beleive to be the lord as he has such authority as one)

here's why

judges 13

Judges 13



1And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD delivered them into the hand of the Philistines forty years.
2And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not.
3And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
4Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
5For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.
6Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:
7But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.
8Then Manoah intreated the LORD, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.
9And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her.
10And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.
11And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.
12And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass. How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him?
13And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware.
14She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe.
15And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.
16And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.
17And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
18And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?
19So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.
20For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.
21But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.
22And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
23But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.
24And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him.

 

[Elijah674]

Firstly, please allow me to say Jesus is NOT a created Angel. He is fully Man, fully God, the Messiah, the Christ, and Lord and Saviour. Jesus is Eternal. Jesus was never created. Jesus is Eternal as the Father and Holy Spirit are Eternal. Jesus has always been and always will be.

Is Jesus a literal created Lamb or Lion? Is He a created Angel? Answer: NO, but I am going to prove using Bible that Michael is just another "Title" to refer to Jesus just as Lamb and Lion is. Michael is not a created Angel. Michael the Archangel is only a name or title.

So I ask that you please read the following with an open and truth loving and seeking heart.

To begin, let's look at the phrase *angel of the LORD* in the story of Moses and the burning bush

Exo 3:2 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Now in verses four and six, who is identified as being in the bush?

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, *I am* the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Notice that the angel (messenger) of verse 2 is really none other than God Himself. This is confirmed in the New Testament-

Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an *angel of the Lord* in a flame of fire in a bush.
Acts 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

Joh 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, *I AM* THAT *I AM*: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, *I AM* hath sent me unto you.

When asked what His name is, the God of the patriarchs of the Old Testament replies *I AM*. Now look again in the New Testament-

Acts 7:32 Saying, *I am* the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, *I am*.

Jesus Christ had just identified Himself as the One who is the God of the Old Testament patriarchs, who was present in the burning bush speaking to Moses. Just for extra measure-

Now look at the story of Hagar in Genesis-

Gen 16:7 And the *angel of the LORD* found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
Gen 16:9 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
Gen 16:10 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Gen 16:11 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Hagar has been visited and spoken to by the *angel of the Lord*, but look who she says it was-

Gen 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Why would Hagar call this Angel LORD of it wasn't referring to Jesus Himself?

Again the *angel of the Lord* is actually none other than the LORD Jesus Christ Himself

Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the *angel of God* called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

Who would make a great nation of the lad? Surely not a mere angel, but actually Jesus Christ Himself.

Now on to Jacob-

Gen 31:11 And the *angel of God* spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.

Who does this messenger identify Himself as?-

Gen 31:13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred

This vow of Jacob's is found in Gen 28-

Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
Gen 28:21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

So the *angel of God* of Gen 31:11 is again none other than the LORD God (Jesus Christ).

Now to the Israelites in the wilderness-

Exo 14:19 And *the angel of God*, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

Who went before them?-

Exo 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

Again, the messenger or *angel of God* is the same as the LORD.

Angel of God/the Lord* appears in verses 9,13,15,16,18,20 and ...

Judg 13:21 But the *angel of the LORD* did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an *angel of the LORD*.

So who had Manoah and his wife been speaking with?

Judg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

They knew, it was God. But why not God the Father, you might ask?-

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

So none of these events I cite could be God the Father, He has never been seen by man or spoken to man. Clearly then, in the instances I cite, the phrase *angel of the LORD* or *angel of God* actually meant Jesus Christ, who is the *chief messenger (angel) of the LORD (God the Father)*, who has declared the Father to mankind.

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Gen 48:16 The *Angel which redeemed me* from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Notice that Israel was talking about God and then transitioned to an angel.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:

Hey, I like that. Do I have your permission to use it?
---Elijah

 

[handy]

yes but the issue was that zechariah and jude have the person saying the same thing. the lord or messenger of the lord in the ot is still in a sense a messenger in translational use(though i beleive to be the lord as he has such authority as one)

here's why

judges 13

Sorry Jason, you lost me.

I don't see a link at all between Jude and Zechariah...yes, Michael said to Satan "The Lord rebuke you" and the Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you."

OK. Price of tea in China anyone? This is by no means any kind of proof that Jude was referring to Zechariah when he related the story of Michael, Satan and the body of Moses.

To me, what is far more to the point is that Jude records that Michael "did not dare"...the language here implies that Michael was not going to be bold enough...or would not even think that he had the right to, bring about an accusation against the accuser. The context is that there were sinful humans thinking so highly of themselves that they are bold in their denunciations of things they really don't know a hill of beans about. And Jude's example to these bold types is that of Michael, who "dared not" pronounce any railing accusation against Satan.

I cannot imagine that Jesus would "dare not"...that He might not for other reasons, OK...but not that He would "dare not".

Anyway, I will look forward to anyone that has any texts that suggest that Michael is the Angel of the Lord...as opposed to the archangel or even an angel of the Lord...the word "the" being a key word here.

 

[Elijah674]

Sorry Jason, you lost me.

I don't see a link at all between Jude and Zechariah...yes, Michael said to Satan "The Lord rebuke you" and the Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you."

OK. Price of tea in China anyone? This is by no means any kind of proof that Jude was referring to Zechariah when he related the story of Michael, Satan and the body of Moses.

To me, what is far more to the point is that Jude records that Michael "did not dare"...the language here implies that Michael was not going to be bold enough...or would not even think that he had the right to, bring about an accusation against the accuser. The context is that there were sinful humans thinking so highly of themselves that they are bold in their denunciations of things they really don't know a hill of beans about. And Jude's example to these bold types is that of Michael, who "dared not" pronounce any railing accusation against Satan.

I cannot imagine that Jesus would "dare not"...that He might not for other reasons, OK...but not that He would "dare not".

Anyway, I will look forward to anyone that has any texts that suggest that Michael is the Angel of the Lord...as opposed to the archangel or even an angel of the Lord...the word "the" being a key word here.

Well, how about that Dan. 12 verse for when (Christ) Michael stands up as earths High Priest, & we no longer have an intercessor? Probation is FINISHED and then trouble, trouble & more trouble is seen on earth??? Surely that Michael is Christ.

And Rev. 22:11-12 declares that it has Christ bringing His REWARD with Him & declares that the still evil ones stay evil + the Saved stay RIGHTEOUS STILL!

And the Archangel surely only means that Christ is the One who is Commander over His created ones?? (as God/Christ/Man Immortal)

--Elijah

 

[Eventide]

Let's say hypothetically that Jesus is Michael the Archangel..

What does that DO for us.. ? Why is it important for some to believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel..?

 

[Stormcrow]

Michael means "one like God" So you believe if it doesn't refer to Jesus, that some mere Angel that was even lower than Lucifer himself, is one LIKE GOD? Of course not, so Michael is none other than our beautiful Lord Jesus Himself.

I haven't taken time to process your entire post, but this struck me as a contradiction. On the one hand you're suggesting that Christ is "one like God" but on the other saying He "is God."

Of all of Christ's claims to deity in the New Testament, nowhere does He ever say, "follow me because I am 'like God.'"

A little food for thought, perhaps.

 

[jasoncran]

micheal the archangel say this the lord rebuke thee. when it really is better translated the lord is against thee or pushes agaisnt thee.

so when the Lord himself says that its say this I , the Lord am pushing thee back. when micheal says it. He is saying the Lord is pushing you back.

same thing but two different persons saying it.Micheal being an angel said what the lord said, and would do.

its like this you see a crime about to happen, you stop the person and you quote the law and that is all you can do. but replace yourself with a cop and viola an arrest could be made or at least stronger rebuke as the person stating that is in position to deal with that potential criminal.

 

[Stormcrow]

{13} "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia. {14} "Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future." Daniel 10:13-14 (NASB)

Michael is indicated here as being "one of the chief princes."

Is there more than one Jesus Christ?

 

[handy]

Well, how about that Dan. 12 verse for when (Christ) Michael stands up as earths High Priest, & we no longer have an intercessor? Probation is FINISHED and then trouble, trouble & more trouble is seen on earth??? Surely that Michael is Christ.

Daniel 12:1-3 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever."

I don't see in this passage Michael "standing as High Priest.

There is certainly a parallel that is echoed in Revelation...Christ's Second Coming and Judgement Day when all will be resurrected either to everlasting life or to be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Got it.

But, as I've already pointed out, Jesus said that when He returned, He would be bringing the angels with Him.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I've looked at each text that specifically mentions Michael. Daniel 10 and 12, Jude and Revelation 12. I just don't find compelling reason to see in any of them that Michael must be Jesus Himself.

 

[Stormcrow]

Just in case anybody missed the significance of this:

{13} "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia. {14} "Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future." Daniel 10:13-14 (NASB)

Michael is indicated here as being "one of the chief princes."

Is there more than one Jesus Christ?

Put another way, if Michael is one among several chief princes, then Jesus - being Michael (according to the OP) - is merely one among several chief princes, meaning He is just another archangel among others, OR all of the chief princes are the Messiahs of all mankind each, in turn, destined for their own cross.

Obviously, Daniel 10:13-14 should dismiss - with no further discussion required - the idea that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel of the OT.

For what it's worth.

 

[Sinthesis]

Just in case anybody missed the significance of this:

{13} "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia. {14} "Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future." Daniel 10:13-14 (NASB)

Michael is indicated here as being "one of the chief princes."

Is there more than one Jesus Christ?

Put another way, if Michael is one among several chief princes, then Jesus - being Michael (according to the OP) - is merely one among several chief princes, meaning He is just another archangel among others, OR all of the chief princes are the Messiahs of all mankind each, in turn, destined for their own cross.

Obviously, Daniel 10:13-14 should dismiss - with no further discussion required - the idea that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel of the OT.

For what it's worth.

If one uses the YLT, then your argument falls away.

Dan 10:13 - `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;​

Strong's H259 - 'echad - אֶחָד
adjective

1) one (number)

a) one (number)
b) each, every
c) a certain
d) an (indefinite article)
e) only, once, once for all
f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
g) first
h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)​

 

[Stormcrow]

If one uses the YLT, then your argument falls away.

Dan 10:13 - `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;​

Strong's H259 - 'echad - אֶחָד
adjective

1) one (number)

a) one (number)
b) each, every
c) a certain
d) an (indefinite article)
e) only, once, once for all
f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
g) first
h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)​

The Septuagint recounts verse 13 this way:

But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians withstood me twenty-one days: and behold, Michael, one of the princes, came to help me; and I left him there with the chief of the kingdom of the Persians. Daniel 10:13 LXX

Darby's recounts it this way:

{13} But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:13 (Darby)

King James:

{13} But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:13 (KJV)

New King James:

{13} But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:13 (NKJV)

Holman Christian Study:

{13} But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for 21 days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me after I had been left there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:13 (HCSB)

And here is how the literal Hebrew reads from a Hebrew interlinear Bible:

and·chief-of kingdom-of Persia standing to·in-front-of·me twenty and·one day and·behold Michael one-of the·chiefs the·first-ones he-came to·to-help-of·me and·I I-was-left there beside kings-of Persia... Daniel 10:13 Hebrew Interlinear

All these translations use "one" instead of "first" for two reasons:

1. Whenever you see a word with multiple definitions in any dictionary, the first definition is the most frequent or preferred use of the word depending on the context in which the word is used. There is nothing in the context of Daniel 10:13 to suggest "first" is a preferred usage over "one." While I like the YLT, too, it is not a perfect translation and - in this case - stands alone in the way it defines "echad."
2. It's important to understand what kind of "prince" we're talking about here:

{12} For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:12 (NASB)

The "princes" of these kingdoms - as both Paul and Daniel saw them - were angelic beings that held sway over the leaders of their respective earthly kingdoms. This idea is somewhat reflected in Revelation, too:

{20} "As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. Revelation 1:20 (NASB)

though these angelic beings were seen aiding the churches, not ruling or opposing them.

Michael is seen in the OT as the "great prince who stands guard" over the sons of Daniel's people: the Jews. As such, Michael - the archangel - is seen waging war in heaven (Revelation 12:7), further supporting Paul's idea that our battles are not with flesh and blood, but with the same evil, angelic powers that "rule the air" against whom Michael fought.

And finally Jude 9 calls Michael an archangel:

{9} But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Jude 1:9 (NASB)

Archangel (

/ˌɑrk.ˈeɪndʒəl/) is a term meaning an angel of high rank.

Lucifer was an archangel. Michael and Gabriel are archangels. The Book of Tobit in the Apocrypha identifies Raphael as an archangel. None of these are the Lord Jesus Christ who created them.

For what it's worth.

 

[Elijah674]

Daniel 12:1-3 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever."

I don't see in this passage Michael "standing as High Priest.

There is certainly a parallel that is echoed in Revelation...Christ's Second Coming and Judgement Day when all will be resurrected either to everlasting life or to be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Got it.

But, as I've already pointed out, Jesus said that when He returned, He would be bringing the angels with Him.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I've looked at each text that specifically mentions Michael. Daniel 10 and 12, Jude and Revelation 12. I just don't find compelling reason to see in any of them that Michael must be Jesus Himself.

Well, here is how 'i' see it, right or wrong! But it is right for me.;)
I find Christ as our High Priest Christ/God setting on the right hand of Jehova God while doing His Priestly Work for the saved ones.

Then comes the Finished work & He tel's us that He brings His reward with Him of Eternal Life or Eternal Death that has been decided by the Record Books. (Eccl. 12:13-14 + Rev. 22:11-14) These dead are STANDING by Books ONLY! Rev. 20:12.

OK: When His Priestly work is Finished He [STANDS UP] and then we see [ALL HELL BRAKE LOOSE] (so to speak) as we have NO High Priest holding back the Winds Of Strife.

And as the Work of Christ is now winding down, the Holy Spirit is [BOTH] seen in Earths few sincere ones & the Striving already being over for these huge Broadway & Rev. 17:1-5 ones.

Yet, the earth has to have a FINAL TESTING to find those who had not the opportunity to know Truth as did these FINISHED APOSTATE ONES HAD. Example?? John 10:16 + Rev. 18:4 ones who are given their Final FREE CHOICE.

And yes, I believe in the 1000 years of the Saved judging [[ALL OF THE DEAD LOST]] during this time period, so when the 1000 years FINAL Judgement (1 Cor. 6:2-3) is over, it is then that the wicked will be resurected to be Eternally destroyed (Obad. 1:16 Mal. 4:1-4) and will suffer per their individual wickedness. See Luke 12:47-48 for who are the most guilty.

Rev. 11
[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This is Christ's LAST High Priest work just shortly before He comes again.

So the verse of Dan. 12 finds this time as I see it, in excelleration! Also directly along with the unfolding Truth's in Matt. 24:21 on. I find the two camps being divided at this time with the Holy Spirt seperating the two groups at this time period. Matt. 6:24 Ends with just these [[TWO]] groups. Compare Rev. 12:17

--Elijah

 

[Sinthesis]

All these translations use "one" instead of "first" for two reasons:

1. Whenever you see a word with multiple definitions in any dictionary, the first definition is the most frequent or preferred use of the word depending on the context in which the word is used. There is nothing in the context of Daniel 10:13 to suggest "first" is a preferred usage over "one." While I like the YLT, too, it is not a perfect translation and - in this case - stands alone in the way it defines "echad."
2. It's important to understand what kind of "prince" we're talking about here:

{12} For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:12 (NASB)

The "princes" of these kingdoms - as both Paul and Daniel saw them - were angelic beings that held sway over the leaders of their respective earthly kingdoms. This idea is somewhat reflected in Revelation, too:

{20} "As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. Revelation 1:20 (NASB)

though these angelic beings were seen aiding the churches, not ruling or opposing them.

Michael is seen in the OT as the "great prince who stands guard" over the sons of Daniel's people: the Jews. As such, Michael - the archangel - is seen waging war in heaven (Revelation 12:7), further supporting Paul's idea that our battles are not with flesh and blood, but with the same evil, angelic powers that "rule the air" against whom Michael fought.

And finally Jude 9 calls Michael an archangel:

{9} But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Jude 1:9 (NASB)

Archangel (

/ˌɑrk.ˈeɪndʒəl/) is a term meaning an angel of high rank.

Lucifer was an archangel. Michael and Gabriel are archangels. The Book of Tobit in the Apocrypha identifies Raphael as an archangel. None of these are the Lord Jesus Christ who created them.

For what it's worth.

There is a whole lot of assumption in your argument. Please show from scripture where anyone other than Michael is referred to as an archangel.

 

[Stormcrow]

Please show from scripture where anyone other than Michael is referred to as an archangel.

I can't. I am referring mainly to church (specifically Roman Catholic) tradition regarding the other archangels. Clearly, however, if Michael is one of the chief princes or first among them, there are others. That much is implied in the text of Daniel 10:13.

With the "gotcha's" taken care of, please tell me how this negates anything I wrote here regarding the usage of the word "one" in all these other translations - including from the Hebrew Interlinear itself - or how my inability to name other unspecified archangels means that Christ is one of them.

BTW, I just want you all to know I did a little more digging on this issue, and it turns out the OP isn't the only one who buys this idea that Jesus is the archangel Michael:

.:IS JESUS CHRIST THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL?

The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus existed as Michael the archangel prior to coming to earth and became Michael again at His resurrection. They claim that Jesus was only a man when He was on earth and when He died, the "man" Jesus ceased to exist,1. being raised as a "spirit creature" the archangel Michael:

"So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God."—Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p. 218 ​

In order to try to prove that Jesus is Michael the archangel, Jehovah's Witnesses often point to passages like Daniel 10:13 where Michael is seen as " one of the chief princes." The fact that Michael is "one of the chief princes," however, indicates that Michael is not unique. Jesus is more than just a "Prince" or "Ruler." The Bible calls Jesus "King of Kings" and "Lord of Lords." (Revelation 17:14; 19:16) This title indicates absolute sovereignty and authority and is a far cry from being "one of the chief princes" who is one among a group of equals.

Good to know that JW doctrine is being posted in OP threads here.

 

[Sinthesis]

I can't. I am referring mainly to church (specifically Roman Catholic) tradition regarding the other archangels. Clearly, however, if Michael is one of the chief princes or first among them, there are others. That much is implied in the text of Daniel 10:13.

With the "gotcha's" taken care of, please tell me how this negates anything I wrote here regarding the usage of the word "one" in all these other translations - including from the Hebrew Interlinear itself - or how my inability to name other unspecified archangels means that Christ is one of them.

BTW, I just want you all to know I did a little more digging on this issue, and it turns out the OP isn't the only one who buys this idea that Jesus is the archangel Michael:


Good to know that JW doctrine is being posted in OP threads here.

Ah yes! The old 'JW doctrine is being posted in OP threads here' trick.
Nice diversion.:D

How's tradition regarding eschatology working out for you? Perhaps you can't show from scripture where anyone other than Michael is referred to as an archangel because Michael is the only archangel. You wouldn't see this because you've accepted from tradition a particular understanding of the term "archangel" which influences how you perceive Daniel 10:13.

I also don't want to get everyone thinking the Watchtower Society are right when they say "Jesus is Michael the archangel". They aren't! They hold to an incorrect definition of "Jesus", "archangel", and probably even "Michael". Truth depends on the definitions we apply to words as much as the relationships between them.

Let's look at the idea of "archangel":

Strong's G743 - archaggelos - ἀρχάγγελος
masculine noun
1) archangel, or chief of the angels

Root Word (Etymology)
From ἄρχω (G757) and ἄγγελος (G32)

ἄρχω (G757)
1) to be chief, to lead, to rule
ἄγγελος (G32)
1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God​

So I'm looking at the term archangel as the 'ruler of messengers'.

Archangel is only used twice in scripture, both times as "the archangel":

Jud 1:9 - Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

1Th 4:16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Does the Lord himself need someone else to shout for Him? In scripture only Michael is given status as "archangel".

 

[Stormcrow]

Perhaps you can't show from scripture where anyone other than Michael is referred to as an archangel because Michael is the only archangel.

And as I have shown, according to the overwhelming interpretation of "echad" as "one" in Daniel 10:13, Michael is merely one among equals!

and·chief-of kingdom-of Persia standing to·in-front-of·me twenty and·one day and·behold Michael one-of the·chiefs the·first-ones he-came to·to-help-of·me and·I I-was-left there beside kings-of Persia... Daniel 10:13 Hebrew Interlinear

In this verse alone we see at least two archangels or "chiefs:" the "chief of the kingdom of Persia" and Michael, "chief of Daniel's people."

Now if Jesus is Michael, then there is at least one other Jesus roaming around the heavens we don't know about because he would be the other "chief" who oversaw the kingdom of Persia!

"Tetranity" anyone?

Not all church tradition is right, but not all of it is wrong, either.

Does the Lord himself need someone else to shout for Him?

Does God Himself need someone else to speak for Him?

Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, Luke 1:26 (NASB)

Could we likewise conclude - by your leading question - that God is Gabriel?