Jesus said "no one has seen God," but Moses, Aaron, Jacob and Abraham, among others, saw God

[Fastfredy0]

Fascinating question. The Trinity (Father, Son, Spirit) and the hypostatic union are a mysteries and therefore the answer is probably is incomprehensible to some degree. Nevertheless, I'll take a vain attempt to answer.

Given: God is of ONE ESSENCE. What is said of the Father, applies equally to the Son and Spirit. All are omnipresent, omnipotent, omnithis, omnithat, etc.

THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION CHAPTER III - Of God, His Unity and Trinity
GOD IS ONE. God is one in essence or nature, subsisting in himself, all sufficient in himself, invisible, incorporeal, immense, eternal, Creator of all things both visible and invisible, the greatest good, living, quickening and preserving all things, omnipotent and supremely wise, kind and merciful, just and true.
GOD IS THREE. Notwithstanding we believe and teach that the same immense, one and indivisible God is in person inseparably and without confusion distinguished as Father, Son and Holy Spirit so, as the Father has begotten the Son from eternity, the Son is begotten (eternally generated) by an ineffable generation, and the Holy Spirit truly proceeds from them both, and the same from eternity and is to be worshipped with both.
Thus there are not three gods, but three persons, co-substantial, coeternal, and coequal; distinct with respect to hypostases, and with respect to order, the one preceding the other yet without any inequality. For according to the nature or essence they are so joined together that they are one God, and the divine nature is common to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

What do we know ...
We know God is Spirit ... what does that mean ... well, we don't know exactly. We know by negation that this means He has no material organization, that he has neither body nor members of the body such as we have, neither shape or form, neither passions nor limitations, but only a spiritual nature. Therefore, His Divine nature is not visible and therefore it cannot be seen.
We know God's divine nature is omnipresent. This means He is everywhere. Man is not capable of seeing anything that is everywhere because God is too big to see. Furthermore, because He is present with every atom, He is in a sense too small too see.
Conclusion 1: God is not visible so man cannot see Him

Premise 1: Christ is visible.
Premise 2: Christ is God (John 20:28)
Conclusion2: God is visible so man can see Him

Conclusion1 and conclusion2 contradict. One must be wrong .... or something is missing ....

THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION
A RATIONAL SOUL IN CHRIST. Moreover, our Lord Jesus Christ did not have a soul bereft of sense and reason, nor flesh without a soul, but a soul with its reason, and flesh with its senses, by which in the time of his passion he sustained real bodily pain, as himself testified when he said: "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death" (Matthew 26:38). And, "Now is my soul troubled" (John 12:27).
TWO NATURES IN CHRIST. We therefore acknowledge two natures or substances, the divine and the human, in one and the same Jesus Christ our Lord (Hebrews 2). And we say that these are bound and united with one another in such a way that they are not absorbed, or confused, or mixed, but are united or joined together in one person the properties of the natures being unimpaired and permanent.
NOT TWO BUT ONE CHRIST. Thus we worship not two but one Christ the Lord. We repeat: one true God and man. With respect to his divine nature he is consubstantial with the Father, and with respect to the human nature he is consubstantial with us men, and like us in all things, sin excepted (Hebrews 4:15).
THE DIVINE NATURE OF CHRIST IS NOT PASSIBLE, AND THE HUMAN NATURE IS NOT EVERYWHERE. Therefore, we do not in any way teach that the divine nature in Christ has suffered or that Christ according to his human nature is still in this world and thus is everywhere. For neither do we think or teach that the body of Christ ceased to be a true body after his glorification, or was deified, and deified in such a way that it laid aside its properties as regards body and soul, and changed entirely into a divine nature and began to be merely one substance.
Note1: Arminians, in general, believe the divine nature is PASSIBLE
Note2: This is referred to as the hypostatic union by theologians: the union of man and God. This is a mystery to some degree. Christ was called the Son of God (divine nature) and son of man (human nature). The human nature of Christ was not all knowing (Mark 13:32 ... Muslims use that as a cudgel), while the divine nature of Christ is all-knowing. The human nature cried and got tired, while the divine nature does neither (Arminians might disagree as they affirm a passible God).

As Christ is a hypostatic union of God and man, so are the Old Testament Theophanies, some of which were mentioned in posts above. Often (always?) the name "The Angel of God" refers to a theophany. Joshau 5:13-15; Genesis 22:15-17; Judges 2:2; Hagar, Abraham and Isaac, burning bush, pillar of fire, Jacob's wrestling match, yahda, yahda. All these material beings were mysteriously "united with the divine in such a way that they are not absorbed, or confused, or mixed, but are united or joined together in one person the properties of the natures being unimpaired and permanent." (Second Helvetic Confession)

So, the apparent contradiction above proving (a) God can be seen and (b) yet cannot be seen is explained, to some degree, by the doctrine of the hypostatic union.

Aside: Did all the theophanies involve the Second Person and human flesh (or bush or pillar of fire) .... I don't know. Many theologians believe so. I would like to see proof. Since all 3 persons have the same essence, any could form a union of sorts with a material thing.
Aside2: Was Melchizedek a theophaniy? Split decision from what I have read. Just to pick side, I say yes.
Aside3: Can the essence of the Son, Father or Spirit be separated from one another ... that would be 3 Gods.

My 2 cents worth ....

 

[Hopeful]

The context refers to God the Father.

No one has seen God the Father.
They saw the Son of God, Jesus Christ, before He became flesh.
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 1:18
This is the revelation of the New Testament; Jesus Christ is Lord; YHWH
JLB

I agree.
They saw the Word.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I agree.
They saw the Word.

Yes - They saw the Word!

So the saw a person (The Christ), but before He came down out of heaven and took on flesh.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "...

They had and used their spiritual eyes, and we can today also. That doesn't mean we will use our spiritual eyes, ears, and other senses.

Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Does the above verse apply to us today, like it applied to them then?

I can't say how many times I see Him, but it is with my spiritual eye, like you see in a vision. Sometimes He appears more real, like if I am really looking at a person, but more often very faint something so faint it really seems like my imagination.

So it is that I hear from Him and I see Him, but not like I should. So often I hear Him tell me things like, 'We need to talk'" And He has often on to me about not using my spiritual eyes enough. He told me, "Karl, you wouldn't drive your car around with your eyes closed, so why do you go the day without using your spiritual eyes?"

For me the answer is clear - It is often just strange to use my spiritual eyes! I don't mind listening with my spiritual ears so much, but that too can be a bit weird though. Still, despite being weird seeing and hearing is often extremely incredible, and almost always a bit educational. Never-the-less, I easily forget about using my spiritual senses and go around all day with my spiritual eyes closed. I usually hear from Him about a dozen times a day, and He often sends His angels to minister to me, and if I pay attention and use some discernment I also find that those dark forces are out and about too. We are indeed going about, not only in the physical realm, but also in the spirit/heavenly realm that is in our midst. It effects us, but do we pay attention? Do we even know the King of kings that if He should take on flesh again that we would know who He was?

jn 1:29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John the Baptist knew who He was when He walked up to him. Do we even know who He is went He talks to us today?

Do we see Him, as if He is sitting in the car next to us? Do we hear Him when we sit down with the Bible in hand and ask Him questions? Do we even believe in Him... be honest with yourself. Perhaps you are like me and are driving around, spiritually speaking, and not opening your eyes?

 

[Hopeful]

Yes - They saw the Word!
So the saw a person (The Christ), but before He came down out of heaven and took on flesh.

You are confusing the Word with the words spoken to Abraham.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "...

They had and used their spiritual eyes, and we can today also. That doesn't mean we will use our spiritual eyes, ears, and other senses.

Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Does the above verse apply to us today, like it applied to them then?

I can't say how many times I see Him, but it is with my spiritual eye, like you see in a vision. Sometimes He appears more real, like if I am really looking at a person, but more often very faint something so faint it really seems like my imagination.

So it is that I hear from Him and I see Him, but not like I should. So often I hear Him tell me things like, 'We need to talk'" And He has often on to me about not using my spiritual eyes enough. He told me, "Karl, you wouldn't drive your car around with your eyes closed, so why do you go the day without using your spiritual eyes?"

For me the answer is clear - It is often just strange to use my spiritual eyes! I don't mind listening with my spiritual ears so much, but that too can be a bit weird though. Still, despite being weird seeing and hearing is often extremely incredible, and almost always a bit educational. Never-the-less, I easily forget about using my spiritual senses and go around all day with my spiritual eyes closed. I usually hear from Him about a dozen times a day, and He often sends His angels to minister to me, and if I pay attention and use some discernment I also find that those dark forces are out and about too. We are indeed going about, not only in the physical realm, but also in the spirit/heavenly realm that is in our midst. It effects us, but do we pay attention? Do we even know the King of kings that if He should take on flesh again that we would know who He was?

jn 1:29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John the Baptist knew who He was when He walked up to him. Do we even know who He is went He talks to us today?

Do we see Him, as if He is sitting in the car next to us? Do we hear Him when we sit down with the Bible in hand and ask Him questions? Do we even believe in Him... be honest with yourself. Perhaps you are like me and are driving around, spiritually speaking, and not opening your eyes?

 

[stovebolts]

God said in Exodus that no man shall see God and live. He said:
Exo 33:20 "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."

However, there are accounts where individuals saw God’s face and lived. Jacob reported not only that he saw God, but that he saw God “face to face,” yet lived (Gen 32:30) after wrestling with a “Man” (Gen 32:24) who Jacob surmised was God:

Gen 32:24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.
Gen 32:25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob's hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And He said, "Let Me go, for the day breaks." But he said, "I will not let You go unless You bless me!"
Gen 32:27 So He said to him, "What is your name?" He said, "Jacob."
Gen 32:28 And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."
Gen 32:29 Then Jacob asked, saying, "Tell me Your name, I pray." And He said, "Why is it that you ask about My name?" And He blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

I have addressed this here.

Post in thread 'Why did God say to Moses that he could not see God’s face and that no one could see God and live, yet Jacob saw God face to face and lived?'
https://christianforums.net/Fellows...god-face-to-face-and-lived.84835/post-1599650

 

[stovebolts]

Jesus said:
John 1:18 “No one has seen God at any time.”

However, there are many stories in the Old Testament of people seeing God. For example, Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and seventy elders of Israel saw God:
Exo 24:9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
Exo 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel.

There are many nuances in Jewish writings that we gentiles, with little to no understanding of the Hebrew language and culture overlook.
In verse 10, we see the words, the God of Israel, that is to say the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In this verse, the nuance of Abraham, Issac and Jacob carry the thought and emphasis from a Genesis narrative. What the people see, is a vision of God through Jacob, but Jacob is seen through Isaac who is seen through Abraham. Genesis 15.

It is good to keep this in mind as this chapter is viewed as the wedding ceremony between Israel and the God of Israel. God foretold this day to Abraham in Genesis 15. Please read the entire chapter.

Simply put, have you ever had an epiphany and suddenly you see something that’s been in plain sight? Or, have you ever waited for a certain moment in time and when that moment occurs, you “see” it? God promised this moment to Abraham, and they see God.

Visions are active and alive today and we can all see God if we are His children. If we can’t see God, then we don’t really know God because we’ve never been face to face with God.

 

[stovebolts]

You are confusing the Word with the words spoken to Abraham.

I just finished reading Karl’s post and I think he is closer than you may realize.

 

[K2CHRIST]

You are confusing the Word with the words spoken to Abraham.

Really - or are you confusing Jesus Christ, The Word of God with the Scriptures?

Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

If we have read the Bible then we should know that the name of Jesus Christ is called The Word of God!1

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying,
“Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you;
Your reward shall be very great.”

So who showed up in the vision and talked to Abram? - It was "the word of the LORD"

We understand that the Lord is God, right?

So in the writings you find that the Christ, as "the word of the Lord" or "word of God" was always showing up and talking to those people who wrote the Bible!!

Sam 15:23 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,

2 Sam 7:4 But in the same night the word of the LORD came to Nathan, saying,

2 Sam 12:9 ‘Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight?

2 Sam 24:11 When David arose in the morning, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying,

1 Ki 6:11 Now the word of the LORD came to Solomon saying,

1 Ki 16:1 Now the word of the LORD came to Jehu the son of Hanani against Baasha, saying,

Now I can keep going, but why don't we read about Bible and understand? Is it because we don't listen to Jesus Christ as "the word of the Lord" and instead lean our our own understanding of the Bible as "the word of the Lord"? Yes, that is it!! We read the Bible and call it the "The Word of God" when it tells us that Jesus Christ is "The Word of God", or "the word of the Lord". We call the Bible the Word of God because we don't listen to Him and thereby don't know that He is the Word of God - even though it is clearly explained in the Bible that "His name is called The Word of God."!!

That 'revelation' information is specifically given to us in the book called Revelation!

And if that wasn't enough, Isaiah prophesied by the word of the Lord that if people didn't listen to Him then the line upon line of text would be the word of God to them - yet that so that they might go falling backwards and taken captive!!

Is 28: 12,13 He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,” And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen. So the word of the LORD to them will be, “Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there,” That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

It is not so hard to understand, if you care to think about it. The people who decided to seek the voice of the Lord (the Christ) and listen, heard from Him! That is to say that He showed up in their lives and talked to them, because they sought after Him. They heard Him and what He had to say to them, so they wrote 'the word of the Lord came to me saying'. Then people who did not seek Him and what He had to say to them read those writings and called those writings 'the word of God' because they could see that those words written down were from God, but they didn't actually know Him as their "Lord"!! So they called the sacred writing "The Word of God" because they did not seek His voice, like Abram, Moses, Samuel, Nathan, and so on.

Now He still speaks! Indeed, His sheep hear His voice. I hear from Him everyday called "Today", but I have to confess that I only usually hear from Him about a dozen times a day. He is always with me, but I get busy with my business. When I get busy I too often forget to talk to Him like I should. Yet even I still know Him as the One, my Lord Jesus Christ, who has the words of God for me. The first words I heard from Him were, "Read Your Bible", and He often talks to me about it. but the Bible is not "The Word of God" to me!! The Word of God to me is Him who comes and talks to me. He told me, "Read Your Bible". He matches up with what I read in the Bible which explains that all Scriptures is good for study and teaching.... But He is the Teacher to me, because He talks to me and teaches me! He even uses the Bible, or do you not understand that it was Him who pointed out the connection and reasoning of what I wrote above?

The One who talks to me is the "the word of the LORD" who appeared to Abram in a vision and talked to him. He is the One who Abram believed and that belief in Him was counted as righteousness to Abram! So He is Jesus (God's salvation) and the Bible is correct where we read that who ever believes in Him shall be saved. But does a person who does not actually know Him as "the word of the LORD" really believe in Him?

Considering that is an enteral question, it is an extremely important question! The Pharisees and Sadducees knew the sacred writings but they did not know Him. So we want to know Him, right? And here is the good news -- He said to John, and it is written in the book of the Bible we call Revelation:

Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.'

So we can all get to know Him, talk with Him, hear from Him, and have conversations with Him!! We can get to know Him as the Word of God!! The Holy Spirit of God is not the only spirit, so test the spirits, but seek the Lord Jesus Christ and He sends His Spirit with His words for your personally. You too will see Him in a vision and will hear Him speaking to you, because you sought Him and because the Father has given all things, including the word of God for you personally!!

Jn 16:13-15 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

The Holy Spirit acts kind of like a living telephone line with Jesus Christ our Lord, and Jesus has/owns the Words of God because the Father gave them to Him. So you can speak directly to Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit, and thus know Jesus Christ as "The Word of God" or "word of the Lord" - since you will then know Him as your Lord who is God who talks to you personally!!

The above is a long detailed explanation for just saying listen to Jesus Christ, or shorter still "HEAR, O ISREAL". And what commandment is to be on your door posts, at least spiritually speaking?

Deut 6:4-9 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
“These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart.
“You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up.
“You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.
“You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

Are you "hearing"? Do you know Him who spoke to Abram as the word of the Lord who speaks to you?