Jesus

[elijah23]

Jesus walked the earth, living a sinless life. He taught us how to live happily and securely forever. He allowed his hands and feet to be nailed to the cross, where he was left to die.

Jesus did this for us. What should we do for him?

 

[Physicist]

Jesus walked the earth, living a sinless life. He taught us how to live happily and securely forever. He allowed his hands and feet to be nailed to the cross, where he was left to die.

Jesus did this for us. What should we do for him?

The curious point about your message is that every sentence is, or has been, contested by experts in the field. I would be interested in knowing your thoughts (and other's thoughts) on these controversies.

"Jesus walked the earth"

While most scholars think there was a real person named Jesus, recent scholars (e.g. Wells) have suggested that he is fictional or a composite of several people.

" living a sinless life."

Doesn't this depend upon whose moral standard? The Romans would have considered his actions in the temple as vandalism. I someone behaved that way in church today they would probably be arrested.

"He taught us how to live happily and securely forever"

Is this a faith-based or fact-based statement? I raise this point because even for a basic question such as how to get to heaven, different Christian churches give different answers. You would think that he would have made this instruction especially clear.

"Jesus did this for us. What should we do for him?"

Why does Jesus dying at the hands of the Romans absolve us of sin? Many people died at the hands of the Romans.

Look forward to your thoughts.

 

[archangel_300]

"Jesus did this for us. What should we do for him?"

Why does Jesus dying at the hands of the Romans absolve us of sin? Many people died at the hands of the Romans.

Look forward to your thoughts.

The difference between Jesus death and the death of another human being was that at the time Jesus was being crucified He was carrying the burden of a subset of all of humanities sins. The wrath of God was being poured out on Jesus in full force for all the sins He was carrying. God is perfectly just and righteous and no sin that ever enters into existence goes unpunished. God does not just "forgive and forget" as we humans do if that were the case Jesus did not have to die on the cross. Either Christ paid for those sins or we will eventually have to pay for them. This is how our sins are absolved.

 

[elijah23]

The curious point about your message is that every sentence is, or has been, contested by experts in the field. I would be interested in knowing your thoughts (and other's thoughts) on these controversies.

"Jesus walked the earth"

While most scholars think there was a real person named Jesus, recent scholars (e.g. Wells) have suggested that he is fictional or a composite of several people.

" living a sinless life."

Doesn't this depend upon whose moral standard? The Romans would have considered his actions in the temple as vandalism. I someone behaved that way in church today they would probably be arrested.

"He taught us how to live happily and securely forever"

Is this a faith-based or fact-based statement? I raise this point because even for a basic question such as how to get to heaven, different Christian churches give different answers. You would think that he would have made this instruction especially clear.

"Jesus did this for us. What should we do for him?"

Why does Jesus dying at the hands of the Romans absolve us of sin? Many people died at the hands of the Romans.

Look forward to your thoughts.

If you obey the teachings of Jesus, your problems will disappear.

 

[kpd560]

God is perfectly just and righteous and no sin that ever enters into existence goes unpunished. God does not just "forgive and forget" as we humans do if that were the case Jesus did not have to die on the cross. Either Christ paid for those sins or we will eventually have to pay for them. This is how our sins are absolved.

This brings up some questions that I had hoped could be answered here.

I've always wondered, is it better to be able to forgive and forget like men or take retribution by eternal torture like God? Shouldn't we take Gods lead and torture to death those who sin against us?

As a god, what exactly did Jesus sacrifice that was worth all the worlds sins? He suffered pain and gave up his mortal body to ascend to an eternal paradise. Who wouldn't want that if they really believed it?

As an atheist, I value this life because I know it's the only one I get. As a christian, why value this life? Why not move on to paradise? Do muslim suicide bombers represent the pinnacle of religious faith?

I hope these questions aren't too disturbing because I am truly seeking some answers.

Best to all

 

[archangel_300]

God is perfectly just and righteous and no sin that ever enters into existence goes unpunished. God does not just "forgive and forget" as we humans do if that were the case Jesus did not have to die on the cross. Either Christ paid for those sins or we will eventually have to pay for them. This is how our sins are absolved.

This brings up some questions that I had hoped could be answered here.

I've always wondered, is it better to be able to forgive and forget like men or take retribution by eternal torture like God? Shouldn't we take Gods lead and torture to death those who sin against us?

As a god, what exactly did Jesus sacrifice that was worth all the worlds sins? He suffered pain and gave up his mortal body to ascend to an eternal paradise. Who wouldn't want that if they really believed it?

As an atheist, I value this life because I know it's the only one I get. As a christian, why value this life? Why not move on to paradise? Do muslim suicide bombers represent the pinnacle of religious faith?

I hope these questions aren't too disturbing because I am truly seeking some answers.

Best to all

It is better to forgive and forget because as a Christian this is what the Bible commands us to do.
We cannot execute *perfect* justice in the way that God does, nor are we in a position to judge the penalty for sin. Our sins are ultimately accountable to the one that created us and He is the one that makes the rules.

Jesus sacrificed His very own soul for us. He was made the perfect human substitute for sin for those that come to faith.

For me I value this life as well as the eternal to come. God created me for a purpose and when my purpose in this world has been finished then I will leave it up to God when to take me home. But this decision rests in His hands not mine.

 

[kpd560]

It is better to forgive and forget because as a Christian this is what the Bible commands us to do.
We cannot execute *perfect* justice in the way that God does, nor are we in a position to judge the penalty for sin. Our sins are ultimately accountable to the one that created us and He is the one that makes the rules.

Jesus sacrificed His very own soul for us. He was made the perfect human substitute for sin for those that come to faith.

For me I value this life as well as the eternal to come. God created me for a purpose and when my purpose in this world has been finished then I will leave it up to God when to take me home. But this decision rests in His hands not mine.

Thanks, all very reasonable answers except the one about Jesus sacrificing his soul. Do you mean he's now soul-less? I thought the soul was immortal. I thought it was the soul that went to heaven. If his soul didn't go to heaven, what did? Best.

 

[archangel_300]

It is better to forgive and forget because as a Christian this is what the Bible commands us to do.
We cannot execute *perfect* justice in the way that God does, nor are we in a position to judge the penalty for sin. Our sins are ultimately accountable to the one that created us and He is the one that makes the rules.

Jesus sacrificed His very own soul for us. He was made the perfect human substitute for sin for those that come to faith.

For me I value this life as well as the eternal to come. God created me for a purpose and when my purpose in this world has been finished then I will leave it up to God when to take me home. But this decision rests in His hands not mine.

Thanks, all very reasonable answers except the one about Jesus sacrificing his soul. Do you mean he's now soul-less? I thought the soul was immortal. I thought it was the soul that went to heaven. If his soul didn't go to heaven, what did? Best.

You're welcome.

Isaiah 53:12
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

Yes the soul is immortal and that is why damnation and those who who exist in hell are there forever more. I don't know how Jesus came through the opposite side of eternity but I'm sure He did since He was raised from the dead which means that the atonement has been completed.

 

[archangel_300]

[quote="archangel_300":3u7gsuj1]
It is better to forgive and forget because as a Christian this is what the Bible commands us to do.
We cannot execute *perfect* justice in the way that God does, nor are we in a position to judge the penalty for sin. Our sins are ultimately accountable to the one that created us and He is the one that makes the rules.

Jesus sacrificed His very own soul for us. He was made the perfect human substitute for sin for those that come to faith.

For me I value this life as well as the eternal to come. God created me for a purpose and when my purpose in this world has been finished then I will leave it up to God when to take me home. But this decision rests in His hands not mine.

Thanks, all very reasonable answers except the one about Jesus sacrificing his soul. Do you mean he's now soul-less? I thought the soul was immortal. I thought it was the soul that went to heaven. If his soul didn't go to heaven, what did? Best.

You're welcome.

Isaiah 53:12
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

Yes the soul is immortal and that is why damnation and those who who exist in hell are there forever more. I don't know how Jesus came through the opposite side of eternity but I'm sure He did since He was raised from the dead which means that the atonement has been completed.[/quote:3u7gsuj1]

Hold on a second... I gotta be careful with that verse above. Perhaps someone with Hebrew experience can confirm if that is really talking about the "human soul" or is it referring to just "individual".. kind of like in the phrase "you poor souls".

But I would *think* so because:
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

Matthew 26:38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me

But in any case when Christ experienced the suffering of God's wrath it wasn't the nail marks that pierced through His hands and feet that were the actual punishment. He was experiencing the suffering for all the sins He was carrying. It the experience of being completely forsaken by God.

 

[LaCrum]

As a god, what exactly did Jesus sacrifice that was worth all the worlds sins? He suffered pain and gave up his mortal body to ascend to an eternal paradise. Who wouldn't want that if they really believed it?

I think major concept of Christianity that you are failing to grasp is the concept of a covenant between God and humanity.

The entire Old Testament (or Old Covenant as is it is correclty translated) is about God trying to make covenants with Israel, and Israel breaking covenant repeatedly. The purpose of this was to show humanity that on our own, we cannot fulfill our covenant half by ourselves and be joined with God.

The comes the New Testament (or New Covenant) in which God becomes human, and thus is able to fulfill our half of the covenant and acts as covenant head between humantiy and God. Thus, if we accept Jesus as our covenant head, we our accepted into the covenant along with Jesus and are able to share in it's blessings.

Furthermore, all throughout the Bible it's clear that sin has to be covered with blood. So to make it possible for us to be able to enter into covenant with God through Jesus, we had to be cleansed of our sins. And in this, Christ acted as the sacrifical lamb, accepting God's in wrath in our place.

To say that the only suffering Jesus experienced was physical torture on the cross is a gross misunderstanding of what Jesus went through. All of God's wrath for every human that has ever lived was poured out on Jesus. The cost and sacrafice of this is something, in this lifetime we will never come close to understanding.

 

[Adullam]

Jesus walked the earth, living a sinless life. He taught us how to live happily and securely forever. He allowed his hands and feet to be nailed to the cross, where he was left to die.

Jesus did this for us. What should we do for him?

This is a trick question as men cannot do anything FOR Jesus. God has never needed man's help. We tend to make a mess of things.

 

[kpd560]

Thanks LaCrum that makes sense. I can see how he might have suffered greatly at the hands of God but what was sacrificed? Sacrifice, to me, means giving something up permanently. For example, in a foxhole one soldier might sacrifice himself for his comrades by throwing himself on a grenade. In that sense I still don't know what Jesus (or God) sacrificed. Also, the idea that Jesus was God and so God was punishing himself for the sin that he himself put on our heads and he himself knew we would commit etc. etc. all seems very weird to me. How do Christians make any sense of it?

 

[archangel_300]

Thanks LaCrum that makes sense. I can see how he might have suffered greatly at the hands of God but what was sacrificed? Sacrifice, to me, means giving something up permanently. For example, in a foxhole one soldier might sacrifice himself for his comrades by throwing himself on a grenade. In that sense I still don't know what Jesus (or God) sacrificed. Also, the idea that Jesus was God and so God was punishing himself for the sin that he himself put on our heads and he himself knew we would commit etc. etc. all seems very weird to me. How do Christians make any sense of it?

Why does it seem weird?

The justice of God demands that payment be made for transgressions against His law. Sin is a debt we owe that gets accumulated until it comes time to pay the piper. Every sin must be accounted for otherwise God is not just or righteous. Jesus became that sacrifice for us in the sense that He became our substitute for sin so that we won't have to experience God's wrath poured out on us. He was like the man who threw himself on a grenade.

Now why does it "appear" that something permanent did not happen...
That's something I will never have an answer for. How did Jesus withstand eternal wrath, and at the same time was raised up from it is a mystery. But we can assure that it happened otherwise there wouldn't be such a thing as Christianity.

 

[elijah23]

This is a trick question as men cannot do anything FOR Jesus. God has never needed man's help. We tend to make a mess of things.

Jesus gave us two commandments to obey (Matt 22:34-40).

 

[Elf]

Jesus walked the earth, living a sinless life. He taught us how to live happily and securely forever.

Jesus lived a sinless life of perfect obedience and secured salvation for the elect. Not to show us how, but He did it in our place, because we cannot.

He allowed his hands and feet to be nailed to the cross, where he was left to die.

The Lamb of God.

Jesus did this for us.

Amen!

What should we do for him?

Hmmmm, you tell me. What should we do for Him?

 

[Elf]

Jesus walked the earth, living a sinless life. He taught us how to live happily and securely forever. He allowed his hands and feet to be nailed to the cross, where he was left to die.

Jesus did this for us. What should we do for him?

The curious point about your message is that every sentence is, or has been, contested by experts in the field. I would be interested in knowing your thoughts (and other's thoughts) on these controversies.

"Jesus walked the earth"

While most scholars think there was a real person named Jesus, recent scholars (e.g. Wells) have suggested that he is fictional or a composite of several people.

That's expected.

" living a sinless life."

Doesn't this depend upon whose moral standard?

Well it would if all men were Gods.

The Romans would have considered his actions in the temple as vandalism. I someone behaved that way in church today they would probably be arrested.

Yep.

"He taught us how to live happily and securely forever"

Is this a faith-based or fact-based statement? I raise this point because even for a basic question such as how to get to heaven, different Christian churches give different answers. You would think that he would have made this instruction especially clear.

..............

"Jesus did this for us. What should we do for him?"

Why does Jesus dying at the hands of the Romans absolve us of sin? Many people died at the hands of the Romans.

It is obvious you don't know why Jesus is.

Look forward to your thoughts.

 

[Physicist]

Whipping boy

"Jesus did this for us. What should we do for him?"

Why does Jesus dying at the hands of the Romans absolve us of sin? Many people died at the hands of the Romans.

Look forward to your thoughts.

The difference between Jesus death and the death of another human being was that at the time Jesus was being crucified He was carrying the burden of a subset of all of humanities sins. The wrath of God was being poured out on Jesus in full force for all the sins He was carrying. God is perfectly just and righteous and no sin that ever enters into existence goes unpunished. God does not just "forgive and forget" as we humans do if that were the case Jesus did not have to die on the cross. Either Christ paid for those sins or we will eventually have to pay for them. This is how our sins are absolved.

In medieval England, when the Prince misbehaved, they whipped a servant boy instead of the deserving Prince. Most people in the 21st century would consider such actions not justice but barbarism. How does God inflicting pain upon himself (to satisfy his wrath in your words) provide a just punishment of sins of others? Seems highly illogical to me.

 

[archangel_300]

Re: Whipping boy

In medieval England, when the Prince misbehaved, they whipped a servant boy instead of the deserving Prince. Most people in the 21st century would consider such actions not justice but barbarism. How does God inflicting pain upon himself (to satisfy his wrath in your words) provide a just punishment of sins of others? Seems highly illogical to me.

You're not comparing apples to apples.
In your scenario the boy was forced to do this on behalf of the prince and he was probably not a willing participant. In the scenario of Jesus Christ, his crucifixion and suffering under God's wrath was voluntary and He was a willing participant. There must have been an agreement within the God head before the foundation of the world that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ would be an acceptable form of payment for the sins of others. In your scenario of the servant boy this served no other purpose other than to take the punishment the prince should have deserved. In the situation with Jesus Christ He did it because He loved us and wanted to restore a proper relationship with humanity.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Whipping boy

In medieval England, when the Prince misbehaved, they whipped a servant boy instead of the deserving Prince. Most people in the 21st century would consider such actions not justice but barbarism. How does God inflicting pain upon himself (to satisfy his wrath in your words) provide a just punishment of sins of others? Seems highly illogical to me.

You're not comparing apples to apples.
In your scenario the boy was forced to do this on behalf of the prince and he was probably not a willing participant. In the scenario of Jesus Christ, his crucifixion and suffering under God's wrath was voluntary and He was a willing participant. There must have been an agreement within the God head before the foundation of the world that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ would be an acceptable form of payment for the sins of others. In your scenario of the servant boy this served no other purpose other than to take the punishment the prince should have deserved. In the situation with Jesus Christ He did it because He loved us and wanted to restore a proper relationship with humanity.

 

[elijah23]

Hmmmm, you tell me. What should we do for Him?

Maybe if we take this Scripture to heart:

[34] But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sad'ducees, they came together.
[35] And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him.
[36] "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." Matt 22:34-40 RSV

What do you think?