Jesus

[Elf]

Hmmmm, you tell me. What should we do for Him?

Maybe if we take this Scripture to heart:

[34] But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sad'ducees, they came together.
[35] And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him.
[36] "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." Matt 22:34-40 RSV

What do you think?

I think (know) I love God because He first loved me.

 

[kpd560]

Thanks LaCrum that makes sense. I can see how he might have suffered greatly at the hands of God but what was sacrificed? Sacrifice, to me, means giving something up permanently. For example, in a foxhole one soldier might sacrifice himself for his comrades by throwing himself on a grenade. In that sense I still don't know what Jesus (or God) sacrificed. Also, the idea that Jesus was God and so God was punishing himself for the sin that he himself put on our heads and he himself knew we would commit etc. etc. all seems very weird to me. How do Christians make any sense of it?

Why does it seem weird?

The justice of God demands that payment be made for transgressions against His law. Sin is a debt we owe that gets accumulated until it comes time to pay the piper. Every sin must be accounted for otherwise God is not just or righteous. Jesus became that sacrifice for us in the sense that He became our substitute for sin so that we won't have to experience God's wrath poured out on us. He was like the man who threw himself on a grenade.

God sets the law which He knows we'll not keep. That's weird.
God punishes Himself(Jesus) for the sins He knew man would commit. That's weird.
God tells man to forgive each other because He reserves the right to punish men for the sins He knows we'll commit. That's weird.

Other than a mortal body what did God(Jesus) permanently sacrifice like the soldier who sacrificed his life by throwing himself on the grenade?

 

[Physicist]

Re: Whipping boy

In medieval England, when the Prince misbehaved, they whipped a servant boy instead of the deserving Prince. Most people in the 21st century would consider such actions not justice but barbarism. How does God inflicting pain upon himself (to satisfy his wrath in your words) provide a just punishment of sins of others? Seems highly illogical to me.

You're not comparing apples to apples.
In your scenario the boy was forced to do this on behalf of the prince and he was probably not a willing participant. In the scenario of Jesus Christ, his crucifixion and suffering under God's wrath was voluntary and He was a willing participant. There must have been an agreement within the God head before the foundation of the world that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ would be an acceptable form of payment for the sins of others. In your scenario of the servant boy this served no other purpose other than to take the punishment the prince should have deserved. In the situation with Jesus Christ He did it because He loved us and wanted to restore a proper relationship with humanity.

I don't know if the whipping job was voluntary. Probably not. However, modern justice systems reject the concept of a scape goat, even if the person offered as the goat is voluntary. Jeffry Dahmer's mother would not have been allowed to take his punishment even if she asked.

In the Christian case, you have God, to satisfy his own wrath, demanding that he himself be tortured. This seems irrational to me. The Being is supposed to be all powerful. It seems a simple willingness to forgive would be sufficient. If you and I can forgive those who have wronged us and caused actual damages, it strikes me as strange that God cannot do the same to those who have caused him no real harm.

 

[archangel_300]

God sets the law which He knows we'll not keep. That's weird.
God punishes Himself(Jesus) for the sins He knew man would commit. That's weird.
God tells man to forgive each other because He reserves the right to punish men for the sins He knows we'll commit. That's weird.

Other than a mortal body what did God(Jesus) permanently sacrifice like the soldier who sacrificed his life by throwing himself on the grenade?

Again I'm not quite sure why you think it's weird. I don't think it's weird so please explain a little more.

 

[archangel_300]

Re: Whipping boy

I don't know if the whipping job was voluntary. Probably not. However, modern justice systems reject the concept of a scape goat, even if the person offered as the goat is voluntary. Jeffry Dahmer's mother would not have been allowed to take his punishment even if she asked.

In the Christian case, you have God, to satisfy his own wrath, demanding that he himself be tortured. This seems irrational to me. The Being is supposed to be all powerful. It seems a simple willingness to forgive would be sufficient. If you and I can forgive those who have wronged us and caused actual damages, it strikes me as strange that God cannot do the same to those who have caused him no real harm.

That's what I was trying to get at in my last post. There must have been an agreement within the Godhead that the sacifice of Jesus and our transfer of sins to him would be an acceptable form of payment. If a person steals from a shop and another individual states he would pay for the stolen items the shop owner has to agree that this would be acceptable first.

Also it's not "torture", torture implies that it is unjustified and I'm certain that's not the case when it comes time for God to judge mankind. I truly believe that God judges sin in perfect fairness. A small white lie will probably have a far different consequence than a cold blooded murder.

A willingness to forgive is *not* enough. God is perfectly just and righteous. Would God be perfectly just if He let sin go without punishment? How can God keep His perfect righteousness if He allows evil to exist in such a way that no penalty is required for it? Let's take your example Jeffery Dahmer... if the judge states OK I forgive you and then lets him be a free man in society is that really just? What about all individuals he killed? What about all the hurt he caused to each victim's families and friends?

God commands us to forgive others because He willingly forgave us but His willing to forgive us was just the *first* step. As a Christian we have the Holy Spirit living within us and the inward desire is to model Christ and what He did for us.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus walked the earth, living a sinless life. He taught us how to live happily and securely forever. He allowed his hands and feet to be nailed to the cross, where he was left to die.

Jesus did this for us. What should we do for him?

This is a trick question as men cannot do anything FOR Jesus. God has never needed man's help. We tend to make a mess of things.

Ah, there you go....even keeping ourselves saved. :yes

 

[kpd560]

God sets the law which He knows we'll not keep. That's weird.
God punishes Himself(Jesus) for the sins He knew man would commit. That's weird.
God tells man to forgive each other because He reserves the right to punish men for the sins He knows we'll commit. That's weird.

Other than a mortal body what did God(Jesus) permanently sacrifice like the soldier who sacrificed his life by throwing himself on the grenade?

Again I'm not quite sure why you think it's weird. I don't think it's weird so please explain a little more.

For example, let's say you gave a friend a task you knew they couldn't complete and then when they didn't complete it you became so upset with your friend that you cut your own hand off to appease your own anger. And of course you knew all this would happen beforehand.

That doesn't seem odd to you? Is this something you can imagine yourself doing or any sane person doing?

 

[archangel_300]

For example, let's say you gave a friend a task you knew they couldn't complete and then when they didn't complete it you became so upset with your friend that you cut your own hand off to appease your own anger. And of course you knew all this would happen beforehand.

That doesn't seem odd to you? Is this something you can imagine yourself doing or any sane person doing?

Yes that would definitely be strange.
However, we are talking about God who created us, this universe and the laws associated with it. If something wrong happens within the confines of what He created then He is the one who decides what to do with it. Therefore all sins are accountable back to Him and He will be the one to judge sin and all evil come judgment day. God claims He is perfect and perfect in righteousness and justice. If this is the case His integrity cannot be compromised and that means that all evil and sin must be dealt with in an appropriate fashion. If God let's one sin go without due punishment God cannot claim perfection nor can He claim He is perfectly just. God would not be able to be God as He would be the one who contradicts Himself.

 

[kpd560]

For example, let's say you gave a friend a task you knew they couldn't complete and then when they didn't complete it you became so upset with your friend that you cut your own hand off to appease your own anger. And of course you knew all this would happen beforehand.

That doesn't seem odd to you? Is this something you can imagine yourself doing or any sane person doing?

Yes that would definitely be strange.

You feel it's strange for anyone but a god to do. I feel it's strange for anyone including a god to do. So we almost agree.

 

[archangel_300]

For example, let's say you gave a friend a task you knew they couldn't complete and then when they didn't complete it you became so upset with your friend that you cut your own hand off to appease your own anger. And of course you knew all this would happen beforehand.

That doesn't seem odd to you? Is this something you can imagine yourself doing or any sane person doing?

Yes that would definitely be strange.

You feel it's strange for anyone but a god to do. I feel it's strange for anyone including a god to do. So we almost agree.

Not really...
I agree that if this situation were to happen on earth human to human there is something wrong with that individual because that person has a flawed sense of what true justice is. Human to human accountability is not the same as human to God accountability.

I see it more like a person who throws himself in the line of friendly fire to save his best friend.

 

[LaCrum]

Thanks LaCrum that makes sense. I can see how he might have suffered greatly at the hands of God but what was sacrificed? Sacrifice, to me, means giving something up permanently. For example, in a foxhole one soldier might sacrifice himself for his comrades by throwing himself on a grenade. In that sense I still don't know what Jesus (or God) sacrificed. Also, the idea that Jesus was God and so God was punishing himself for the sin that he himself put on our heads and he himself knew we would commit etc. etc. all seems very weird to me. How do Christians make any sense of it?

No problem!

The sacrifice that occurred was that he experienced the wrath of God in our place. At present time, we can’t really grasp what that exactly looks like, because none of us have even come close to having to endure the wrath of God. Additionally, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit had lived in perfect relationship with one another since before the beginning of time, and now God the Son was offering himself to be forsaken from that perfect relationship.

Another reason why it’s called a sacrifice has to do with the OT Laws from the Mosaic Covenant. Once a year in Israel, the priest would sacrifice a blemish-free lambs on behalf of the people of Israel for their sins on the alter of God. The reason for this is the Christian and Jewish belief that only the blood of the innocent can cover the sins of the guilty. Consequently, the same day Jesus was being led to the cross was the same day they were preparing the lambs for sacrifice in Jerusalem.

A great question in the Christian faith is “Why did God bother� Why would God go through all this trouble for us? He’s complete without us, what need was there to do all this? The best answer I have to this question is love. Our God is a God of love. With this being so, it would make sense that He would want to share and overflow is love unto others. But for us to truly love Him in return, we have to do it of our own freewill. Thus, there’s always a chance that there will be those of His creation who reject him. As C.S. Lewis has said, did God not know this was going to happen? Of course he did. But apparently He thought it was worth it.

Because our God is not only a God of love but a perfect and just God, we could not be brought to spend our eternity with Him because we deserved eternal separation from God by our disobedience. So what does our God, the God of love do to reconcile this? He finds a loophole. He sends himself down to endure that separation from God for us, so we can be called blameless when we stand before the throne of God. It truly is the greatest love story ever told.

If you could imagine up a god of pure love and goodness, what would that god look like?

I always find the Christian God when I ask myself that question.

 

[LaCrum]

I don't know if the whipping job was voluntary. Probably not. However, modern justice systems reject the concept of a scape goat, even if the person offered as the goat is voluntary. Jeffry Dahmer's mother would not have been allowed to take his punishment even if she asked.

I think you’re still looking at it the wrong way.

Would a parent sacrificing themselves for their child be viewed as barbaric?

Would a father sending himself to hell in place of his children be viewed as barbaric?

 

[kpd560]

Thanks again and please bear with me because I'm going to ask some more stupid questions.

No problem!
The sacrifice that occurred was that he experienced the wrath of God in our place. At present time, we can’t really grasp what that exactly looks like, because none of us have even come close to having to endure the wrath of God. Additionally, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit had lived in perfect relationship with one another since before the beginning of time, and now God the Son was offering himself to be forsaken from that perfect relationship.

I'm sure the wrath of God the Father is hideous and God the Son no doubt suffered unbelieveably on the cross but that's not a "sacrifice". If God the Son had been separated from the rest of the Trinity, that would have constituted a "sacrifice" but to my knowledge they're back together again. Jesus did give up his mortal body but that hardly seems like a sacrifice for a God.

Another reason why it’s called a sacrifice has to do with the OT Laws from the Mosaic Covenant. Once a year in Israel, the priest would sacrifice a blemish-free lambs on behalf of the people of Israel for their sins on the alter of God. The reason for this is the Christian and Jewish belief that only the blood of the innocent can cover the sins of the guilty. Consequently, the same day Jesus was being led to the cross was the same day they were preparing the lambs for sacrifice in Jerusalem.

The part in bold I find truly disturbing. Is this just another instance where we're just not intelligent enough to understand Gods motives or reasoning?

A great question in the Christian faith is “Why did God bother� Why would God go through all this trouble for us? He’s complete without us, what need was there to do all this? The best answer I have to this question is love. Our God is a God of love. With this being so, it would make sense that He would want to share and overflow is love unto others. But for us to truly love Him in return, we have to do it of our own freewill. Thus, there’s always a chance that there will be those of His creation who reject him. As C.S. Lewis has said, did God not know this was going to happen? Of course he did. But apparently He thought it was worth it.

Good questions. Apparently we are as ants to God when it comes to understanding his mind. I still have to question his method of tending the ant farm. As humans, how would we fare if parents hid themselves from their children with the exception of one instance of self flagellation in dim history and a book of supposed truths indistinguishable from childrens fairy tales? If we can't understand God or his motives and whitewash it all with love, why do we think any good will come of it for ourselves? Maybe God is just a kid with a magnifying glass waiting for the sun to come out so he can have some fun with his ant farm. Who knows? To me it seems pointless to arrange my life around the fear that some day the supernatural will finally prove its existence by entering and destroying the natural universe.

Because our God is not only a God of love but a perfect and just God, we could not be brought to spend our eternity with Him because we deserved eternal separation from God by our disobedience. So what does our God, the God of love do to reconcile this? He finds a loophole. He sends himself down to endure that separation from God for us, so we can be called blameless when we stand before the throne of God. It truly is the greatest love story ever told.

If God is loving, perfect and just why would he create us as unloving, imperfect and unjust? How could he create us like this when everything he creates must by definition be perfect? He's incapable of creating evil so how did he create us?[/quote]

If you could imagine up a god of pure love and goodness, what would that god look like?

Definitely my wife! :D She must be a goddess to have the patience to put up with me.

Best!

 

[archangel_300]

Another reason why it’s called a sacrifice has to do with the OT Laws from the Mosaic Covenant. Once a year in Israel, the priest would sacrifice a blemish-free lambs on behalf of the people of Israel for their sins on the alter of God. The reason for this is the Christian and Jewish belief that only the blood of the innocent can cover the sins of the guilty. Consequently, the same day Jesus was being led to the cross was the same day they were preparing the lambs for sacrifice in Jerusalem.

The part in bold I find truly disturbing. Is this just another instance where we're just not intelligent enough to understand Gods motives or reasoning?

I'm not quite sure I agree with what LaCrum said.
The reason why a blemish free lamb was sacrificed was because this pointed to Jesus Christ who was sinless person to be sacrificed for the sins of the people. Jesus Christ is this flawless lamb of God. The Old Testament Laws and stories are shadows of the things that would eventually appear in the New Testament.

For instance if you read Exodus the story about the passover, a spotless lamb had to be put to death and its blood was spread on the door posts of the houses so that when the angel of death came it would passover them and not destroy the first born in the house. This again is pointing to Jesus Christ whose blood covers us and protects us from eternal death. As a side note it is also interesting that Jesus Christ was crucified on the Jewish Passover. That wasn't a coincidence.

 

[LaCrum]

I'm sure the wrath of God the Father is hideous and God the Son no doubt suffered unbelieveably on the cross but that's not a "sacrifice". If God the Son had been separated from the rest of the Trinity, that would have constituted a "sacrifice" but to my knowledge they're back together again. Jesus did give up his mortal body but that hardly seems like a sacrifice for a God.

Well by definition, a sacrifice is: the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

So by the definition, it was a sacrifice. Jesus gave up his glory to come and live among us, then die in our place, as a human, and endure the wrath of God the Father because of his love for us.

With your logic, I could argue a soldier throwing his body over a land mine to save his fellow soldiers can’t constitute a “sacrifice†because he died instantly, thus felt no pain, and is dead so has no recollection, remorse, or second-thoughts of his actions.

If you want to argue that Jesus wasn’t fully human and thus having to endure the cross, etc. was easier for Him than us, that’s a completely different topic, although scripture makes several references to the humanness of Christ.

The part in bold I find truly disturbing. Is this just another instance where we're just not intelligent enough to understand Gods motives or reasoning?

The shedding of blood was two-fold.

First, when covenants are made, there was always a cut made from which blood would flow to seal the covenant. Afterwards, the cut would heal in such a way that it would form a scar so anyone who saw it would know you had a covenant brother out there. Jesus bears these scars on his hands, feet and sides. Christians are marked in turn by the Holy Spirit living within them.

Second, in the OT, the lamb acted as the people’s “substituteâ€. God shows us through the OT Law that there is punishment and payment required for sin in order to be accepted by a Holy and Just God. We now know the use of animals as sacrifices in the OT Law was foreshadowing the time when God would send himself as Jesus to be the ultimate sacrificial lamb, to die and cleanse us from our sins once and for all.

Good questions. Apparently we are as ants to God when it comes to understanding his mind. I still have to question his method of tending the ant farm. As humans, how would we fare if parents hid themselves from their children with the exception of one instance of self flagellation in dim history and a book of supposed truths indistinguishable from childrens fairy tales? If we can't understand God or his motives and whitewash it all with love, why do we think any good will come of it for ourselves? Maybe God is just a kid with a magnifying glass waiting for the sun to come out so he can have some fun with his ant farm. Who knows? To me it seems pointless to arrange my life around the fear that some day the supernatural will finally prove its existence by entering and destroying the natural universe.

I suppose we would need to clarify what you mean by God “hiding†himself from us means. I think it’s arrogant to assume we can truly perceive the Universe as it really is with only our 5 senses. If every human being was blind it wouldn’t mean that colour doesn’t exist, but simply that we can’t perceive it. I feel the same way about the spiritual world. There are spiritual forces, both good and bad, all around us, but we don’t have the “sense†to perceive them.

I read in another thread (correct me if I’m wrong) how you stated that you once were a Christian, and know more about the Bible than other Christians you speak with. In the most respectful way I can say this, it is apparent through your posts that your grasp of Christian and Biblical theology is quite flimsy. This is evident from the fact of you not understanding the New Covenant and the Sacrificial Lamb. These are the foundation of the Christian set of beliefs. So it’s hard for me to take your stance comparing the Bible to a bunch of children’s fairy tales, because you’ve made it clear you don’t know much about the Bible to begin with. If you did, you would see quite clearly the connections between the OT and NT and the stories and writings contained within each, and maybe would not be quite so quick to compare it to the writings of the Brother’s Grimm.

No Christian arranges their life around fear, but around the freedom, peace, and hope that only God can give. That last sentence again shows how small your understanding of scripture is. Jesus isn’t returning to destroy the Universe, but to renew it.

If God is loving, perfect and just why would he create us as unloving, imperfect and unjust? How could he create us like this when everything he creates must by definition be perfect? He's incapable of creating evil so how did he create us?

He didn’t create us evil, we chose to be evil. In Genesis, God doesn’t call his creation perfect, He calls it good.

There is also a difference in creating sin verses creating the capacity to sin. God created us innocent with the capacity to sin (ie free will). In that sense, it’s no longer God choosing for us, but us choosing for ourselves.

Now, one could take a different approach and argue that God didn’t create evil, but He allows it, and that in itself is evil. But, if God did step in to stop evil every time it was to occur, there would be no free will. So, for the meantime, God allows it, ut there will come a day when He says “Enough†and evil will rule this world no longer.

 

[LaCrum]

I'm not quite sure I agree with what LaCrum said.
The reason why a blemish free lamb was sacrificed was because this pointed to Jesus Christ who was sinless person to be sacrificed for the sins of the people. Jesus Christ is this flawless lamb of God. The Old Testament Laws and stories are shadows of the things that would eventually appear in the New Testament.

For instance if you read Exodus the story about the passover, a spotless lamb had to be put to death and its blood was spread on the door posts of the houses so that when the angel of death came it would passover them and not destroy the first born in the house. This again is pointing to Jesus Christ whose blood covers us and protects us from eternal death. As a side note it is also interesting that Jesus Christ was crucified on the Jewish Passover. That wasn't a coincidence.

Read my response above, I expanded on that idea to further explain how it forshadows the events of the NT. You can see we are in agreeance .

 

[archangel_300]

I'm not quite sure I agree with what LaCrum said.
The reason why a blemish free lamb was sacrificed was because this pointed to Jesus Christ who was sinless person to be sacrificed for the sins of the people. Jesus Christ is this flawless lamb of God. The Old Testament Laws and stories are shadows of the things that would eventually appear in the New Testament.

For instance if you read Exodus the story about the passover, a spotless lamb had to be put to death and its blood was spread on the door posts of the houses so that when the angel of death came it would passover them and not destroy the first born in the house. This again is pointing to Jesus Christ whose blood covers us and protects us from eternal death. As a side note it is also interesting that Jesus Christ was crucified on the Jewish Passover. That wasn't a coincidence.

Read my response above, I expanded on that idea to further explain how it forshadows the events of the NT. You can see we are in agreeance .

Agreed. Great post BTW.

 

[kpd560]

Well by definition, a sacrifice is: the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

I'm sorry to keep picking at this but I want an answer that makes some sense. By your definition, what prized thing did Jesus surrender or allow to be destroyed? Also, your definition doesn't say this but I assume a sacrifice is permanent.

So by the definition, it was a sacrifice. Jesus gave up his glory to come and live among us, then die in our place, as a human, and endure the wrath of God the Father because of his love for us.

I'm sorry again. None of the things you mention constitute a sacrifice by your definition.

With your logic, I could argue a soldier throwing his body over a land mine to save his fellow soldiers can’t constitute a “sacrifice†because he died instantly, thus felt no pain, and is dead so has no recollection, remorse, or second-thoughts of his actions.

My logic? The soldier gave up his prized life for the sake of his fellow men. That is the perfect definition of sacrifice. I didn't read in the definition where sacrifice required a slow death, great pain, recollection, remorse or second thoughts. Jesus gave up his mortal body but everybody eventually does that and he was a god so I hardly think it can be viewed as precious.

You're quite right that my knowledge of Christian apologetics is not up to the standard of many here. You are not average christians and this is exactly why I value the debates here. I'm searching for information that may change my mind about the existence of God. I must warn you though, my standards are high.

If God is loving, perfect and just why would he create us as unloving, imperfect and unjust? How could he create us like this when everything he creates must by definition be perfect? He's incapable of creating evil so how did he create us?

He didn’t create us evil, we chose to be evil. In Genesis, God doesn’t call his creation perfect, He calls it good.

He knew we would choose to be evil so he created, ipso facto, evil. I believe the logic is flawless.

There is also a difference in creating sin verses creating the capacity to sin. God created us innocent with the capacity to sin (ie free will). In that sense, it’s no longer God choosing for us, but us choosing for ourselves.

Tell me, how did we choose for ourselves if God knew we would sin? Are you saying that he didn't know what would happen?

Now, one could take a different approach and argue that God didn’t create evil, but He allows it, and that in itself is evil. But, if God did step in to stop evil every time it was to occur, there would be no free will. So, for the meantime, God allows it, but there will come a day when He says “Enough†and evil will rule this world no longer.

Again, if God knows everything we have no free will. We're just acting out a preordained destiny.

Thanks very much for your answers.

 

[archangel_300]

My logic? The soldier gave up his prized life for the sake of his fellow men. That is the perfect definition of sacrifice. I didn't read in the definition where sacrifice required a slow death, great pain, recollection, remorse or second thoughts. Jesus gave up his mortal body but everybody eventually does that and he was a god so I hardly think it can be viewed as precious.

Would you go to hell for eternity and suffer the price for every single sin that hundreds of millions of people committed? I don't know how God was able to compress eternity down to what seems to us like limited time but we can know and trust that God's sacrifice was eternal in nature otherwise hell would not be described as eternal. God is not unjust.

Again, if God knows everything we have no free will. We're just acting out a preordained destiny.

Knowledge of the future doesn't mean that we don't have free will. God knows everything we will do and every choice we will make and He allows us to do it. He never forces us to do it even though He knows about it already. God knew Adam and Eve would choose evil and that's why Christ was appointed to be savior before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:20
He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

He allows us to play in our sandbox but He knows the end game and outcome of all things.
He'll know how to catch us if we fall by our own decisions and since He is infinitely more intelligent than we are He also knows how to turn lemons into lemonade.

 

[kpd560]

My logic? The soldier gave up his prized life for the sake of his fellow men. That is the perfect definition of sacrifice. I didn't read in the definition where sacrifice required a slow death, great pain, recollection, remorse or second thoughts. Jesus gave up his mortal body but everybody eventually does that and he was a god so I hardly think it can be viewed as precious.

Would you go to hell for eternity and suffer the price for every single sin that hundreds of millions of people committed? I don't know how God was able to compress eternity down to what seems to us like limited time but we can know and trust that God's sacrifice was eternal in nature otherwise hell would not be described as eternal. God is not unjust.

Well that wraps that up. God the son is in hell for eternity suffering the punishment of God the father for every sin ever committed by mankind against the law of the triune God that He knew we would commit and because He's just. I have no rebuttal to that.

Again, if God knows everything we have no free will. We're just acting out a preordained destiny.

Knowledge of the future doesn't mean that we don't have free will. God knows everything we will do and every choice we will make and He allows us to do it. He never forces us to do it even though He knows about it already. God knew Adam and Eve would choose evil and that's why Christ was appointed to be savior before the foundation of the world.

Knowledge of the future means it's preordained. Please explain how we can freely choose what to do if the future is set in stone. Since God knows everything we will do he knew he was creating sinners. Why did he create sinners? I just can't seem to get my mind around all these logical contradictions.

Best my friend.