ezra
Member
that ok i am sure i know where your going with itI’ll be glad to post it again.
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that ok i am sure i know where your going with itI’ll be glad to post it again.
Noted but not as a 2nd work of grace. The full event below. There is no teaching or record of those born anew of the Spirit to seek such a additional baptizm of the Spirit. These disciples did not have the Spirit of Christ in them. Like Nicodemus they were ignorant of this new birth. And if they received Johns baptism then its highly likely these disciples were Jews.I have posted the scriptures for the three baptisms in this thread so many times, I actually had to apologize to Jeff for overstating it too many times.
Did you read it?
I’ll be glad to post it again.
The baptism you referred to is from
1 Corinthians 12:13, and shows us how the Holy Spirit baptises us into Christ.
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
As you stated this happens when we are born again.
JLB
There is no teaching or record of those born anew of the Spirit to seek such a additional baptizm of the Spirit.
Historical evidence of speaking in tongues in the early church from the writings of Eusebius, Irenaeus, Chrysostom of Constantinople, and Augustine of Hippo…
A.D. 33 - The day of Pentecost:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come they were all with one accord in one place... And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." ACTS 2:1-4
A.D. 41 - At Caesarea:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." ACTS 10:44-46
A.D. 54 - At Ephesus:
"And it came to pass that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost... And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." ACTS 19:1-6
A.D. - At Corinth:
"Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of Spiritual gifts, see that ye may excel to the edifying of the church... Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret... I thank my God that I (Paul) speak with tongues more than ye all."1 CORINTHIANS 14:12-18
A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."
A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."
A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.
A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."
A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."
"THIS IS THAT..."
"But Peter... lifted up his voice and said: This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; and it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh."ACTS 2:16-17
What is "this"? This is what happened in the upper room on that first Pentecostal Sunday:
What is "that"? That, said Peter, is what has caused this - namely, the Spirit of God poured out as promised.
- The fire of God appeared.
- The sound of God's Spirit was heard.
- They were all filled.
- They all spoke in tongues.
Not a word from the Old or New Testaments suggests that this outpouring would be limited to one day. Bible teaching is to the contrary:
Why "this" is "that"? This is that simply because the Holy Spirit was identified with the experience of tongues. Take this scriptural confirmation away and we indulge in guesswork of the most dangerous nature. Whether in the house of Cornelius (ACTS 10:44), or at Ephesus (ACTS 19), the lack of THIS would have frustrated the receiving of THAT - namely the wonderful and satisfying gift of the Holy Spirit, with tongues.
- The experience was for all (JOEL 2:28).
- Tongues was to be the sign (See MARK 16:17; ISAIAH 28:11-12; 1 CORINTHIANS 14:21).
- The experience was seen and heard (ACTS 2:33).
- It was continued throughout all generations (ACTS 2:39).
JLB
John 1:12 is present tense.John 1:12 is written in the past tense...as if it's over when John wrote his Gospel and John 3:5 has a footnote explaining a second translation which I explain is actually superior to the norm.
John 1:12 you dismiss the past tense and believe it's applicible for today. (No footnote even)
But when I explain how Born From Above (another Son of God reference and a footnote) is the preferred reading and you dismiss it out of hand.
I'm just trying to understand your method of hermeneutics. How you come to the conclusions you do.
Its not about speaking in Tongues. Its about being born anew by the Spirit of God. Christ in us. As in did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
Speaking in tongues is about signs given not about salvation. Being born anew is about a new creation in regard to our "being"
There is no 2nd work of grace that changes our "being" as in a new creation.
Randy
There is no teaching or record of those born anew of the Spirit to seek such a additional baptizm of the Spirit.
that should read will not tell someone they are wrong.. but will tell someone they are wrong for it..
Here is what I quoted from you -
This stated is completely and utterly a false statement.
Why would would you say such a thing ?
Dude, if your here to just to deny what’s going n the New Testament, or what the Church Fathers taught, then please don’t waste my time.
I’m here to share truth from the scriptures.
I have no desire to argue with you and try and chase you around and around as you just deny what is a foundational truth of the Christian life.
Here is what the Apostles taught.
If you don’t want the baptism of the Holy Spirit then so be it. I’ll leave you to yourself.
JLB
The context of my statement was those who were born of God already have the Spirit. They did not need to seek a 2nd work of grace. Clearly the examples you give are those who are receiving the Holy Spirit via baptism. And the speaking in tongues was about signs given. What other purpose would there be as the inward circumcision is what counts? Many signs and wonders were given in the beginning in a world with many false Gods and pagans. That was proof of the one true God.Here is what I quoted from you -
This stated is completely and utterly a false statement.
Why would would you say such a thing ?
Dude, if your here to just to deny what’s going n the New Testament, or what the Church Fathers taught, then please don’t waste my time.
I’m here to share truth from the scriptures.
I have no desire to argue with you and try and chase you around and around as you just deny what is a foundational truth of the Christian life.
Here is what the Apostles taught.
If you don’t want the baptism of the Holy Spirit then so be it. I’ll leave you to yourself.
Evidence of Speaking in Tongues in the Early Church
Historical evidence of speaking in tongues in the early church from the writings of Eusebius, Irenaeus, Chrysostom of Constantinople, and Augustine of Hippo…
A.D. 33 - The day of Pentecost:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come they were all with one accord in one place... And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." ACTS 2:1-4
A.D. 41 - At Caesarea:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." ACTS 10:44-46
A.D. 54 - At Ephesus:
"And it came to pass that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost... And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." ACTS 19:1-6
A.D. - At Corinth:
"Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of Spiritual gifts, see that ye may excel to the edifying of the church... Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret... I thank my God that I (Paul) speak with tongues more than ye all."1 CORINTHIANS 14:12-18
A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."
A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."
A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.
A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."
A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."
"THIS IS THAT..."
"But Peter... lifted up his voice and said: This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; and it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh."ACTS 2:16-17
What is "this"? This is what happened in the upper room on that first Pentecostal Sunday:
What is "that"? That, said Peter, is what has caused this - namely, the Spirit of God poured out as promised.
- The fire of God appeared.
- The sound of God's Spirit was heard.
- They were all filled.
- They all spoke in tongues.
Not a word from the Old or New Testaments suggests that this outpouring would be limited to one day. Bible teaching is to the contrary:
Why "this" is "that"? This is that simply because the Holy Spirit was identified with the experience of tongues. Take this scriptural confirmation away and we indulge in guesswork of the most dangerous nature. Whether in the house of Cornelius (ACTS 10:44), or at Ephesus (ACTS 19), the lack of THIS would have frustrated the receiving of THAT - namely the wonderful and satisfying gift of the Holy Spirit, with tongues.
- The experience was for all (JOEL 2:28).
- Tongues was to be the sign (See MARK 16:17; ISAIAH 28:11-12; 1 CORINTHIANS 14:21).
- The experience was seen and heard (ACTS 2:33).
- It was continued throughout all generations (ACTS 2:39).
JLB
The context of my statement was those who were born of God already have the Spirit. They did not need to seek a 2nd work of grace. Clearly the examples you give are those who are receiving the Holy Spirit via baptism. And the speaking in tongues was about signs given. What other purpose would there be as the inward circumcision is what counts? Many signs and wonders were given in the beginning in a world with many false Gods and pagans. That was proof of the one true God.
Such signs were together with receiving the Spirit.
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
This is what was taught. As you show signs were also given of this new birth in some cases.
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
Those who received the Spirit were not directed to seek a 2nd work of grace that changes their being.
There is no teaching or record of those born anew of the Spirit to seek such a additional baptizm of the Spirit.
Those who received the Spirit were not directed to seek a 2nd work of grace that changes their being.
Clearly-Christ in them.Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19
- Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
- They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
What did these Christians receive when the Apostles laid hands on them ?
JLB
Me to and I didn't receive the HS when I was baptized as a baby.i got the Holy spirit and no man laid hands on me ..i have the power/anointing no man laid hands on me
Clearly-Christ in them.
Yes, I believe the purpose in cases you cited ,(laying on hands), was so they would receive the Spirit as it was stated the Spirit had not yet come upon them.So you believe they received Christ in them through the laying on of the Apostles hands?
They had already been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Wouldn’t they already have Christ in them, having been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus ?
- They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
- Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
- They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
JLB
How can one who has the Spirit of Christ in them state they had NOT received the Spirit?
Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
If the answer is yes then there is no need to seek another baptism from God.