Bible Study John 1:1-3 A proper translation

[Georges]

The Christian Interpretation of John 1:1-3:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same (Jesus) was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.

The Jewish Interpretation of John 1:1-3:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the (Memra), and the (Memra) was with Jehovah, and the (Memra) was Elohim (part of the heavenly group including Jehovah, Messiah, and angels).
Jhn 1:2 The (Memra) was in the beginning with Jehovah.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by the (Memra); and without the (Memra) was not any thing made that was made.


The Shema:

The Christian Interpretation:

Deu 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

The Jewish Interpretation:

Deu 6:4: Hear, Israel: Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah


The correct words with the correct definition change the whole interpretation.....

Except from a paper I'm composing regarding the false assumption that the Shema is proof of the trinity....

Terms for the names Jehovah, God, and God as defined in Judaism:
1. Jehovah: YHWH
Of the names of God in the Old Testament, that which occurs most frequently (6,823 times) is the so-called Tetragrammaton, Yhwh ( ), the distinctive personal name of the God of Israel. This name is commonly represented in modern translations by the form "Jehovah".
If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ( ).
Note (GWS): Jehovah (Yahweh, YHVH) is also known as El when YHVH is not to be used. Yahweh is the personal name of God that separates him from the Elohim (sons of God).
2. God: Elohim
….In the Levantine (ancient Middle East) pantheon, the Elohim are the sons of El the ancient of days (olam) assembled on the divine holy place, Mount Zephon (Jebel Aqra). This mountain, which lies in Syria, was regarded as a portal to its heavenly counterpart. The Elohim are ruled by the El called Hadad the most high (elyon) who was known among the common people as "the master" ("Baal"). Assembled on the holy mountain of heaven and ruled by one, the pantheon (Elohim) acts as one.
….A common name of God in the Hebrew Bible is Elohim (Hebrew: אלהים); as opposed to other names mentioned in this article, this name also describes gods of other religions.
….Despite the -im ending common to many plural nouns in Hebrew, the word Elohim, when referring to God is grammatically singular, and regularly takes a singular verb in the Hebrew Bible. It is argued that the word elohim had an origin in a plural grammatical form. When the Hebrew Bible uses elohim not in reference to God, it usually takes plural forms of the verb.
Note (GWS): The first paragraph is given in reference to terms related to the geographic area. It is employed here to show the hierarchy of the Elohim. The Elohim are the sons of El, and are ruled by him. The second paragraph affirms that God, when the verse is inferring singularity, is part of the Elohim (as the leader of the divine group). The third paragraph states that Elohim, when used in plurality, refers to a “divine group†(i.e. angels et al) and may include God as the verse needs.
3. God (Yahweh): EL
The word El ( ) appears in Hebrew, as an ordinary name of God. It is used in both the singular and plural, both for other gods and for the God of Israel.
Note (GWS): EL is Yahweh (YHVH) who is the Christian Jehovah. Yahweh (Jehovah) is part of the Elohim (the sons of El) as their ruler, yet the Elohim (the sons of El) are not Yahweh (Jehovah). To the ancient Israelites, it was forbidden to call God by his personal name. To prevent an accidental breaking of the 4th commandment, they called him by descriptive titles…one of these title names for YHVH is EL SHADDAI which translates as Almighty God. EL (Jehovah) SHADDAI (Almighty) would be used instead of YHVH SHADDAI.
4. One: Echad
(GWS) In regard to the verse above, One (Echad), doesn’t mean that Jehovah and Elohim are One, as in “one and the same†rather, One refers to “Number Oneâ€Â, the First in Order, the First in Hierarchy. In other words Jehovah is the Leader of the Elohim. This verse is a very important concept needed. Why? I believe it was because, the Israelites had just left polytheistic Egypt and were about to enter polytheistic Canaan. God needed to make it clear to the Israelites that He alone was El, and that he was above the heavenly entities (Elohim).
Note (GWS): To explain the relationship between Jehovah (Yahweh) and the Elohim, I will use the President and Congress of the United States in a rough but workable comparison. I do realize that the three branches of the government are a checks and balance system where one branch is no more powerful than the others, however in this example, I will submit that the President is the most powerful position and will use that in the example below. I will insert the Jewish terms next to the group names I’ll be using.
1. Elohim: The Congress of the USA including (but not necessarily) the President.
2. El: The title/position of President of the USA as leader of the Congress.
3. Jehovah (YHVH): The personal name of the President (ie George Bush).

The Scenario for the Jewish interpretation of Elohim is as follows:
George Bush (Jehovah) is the President (EL) of the United States of America. He, George Bush (Jehovah) is the leader (EL) over Congress (Elohim). George Bush (Jehovah) as leader (El) over Congress (Elohim) is actually part of the Congress (Elohim). That makes George Bush (Jehovah) part of the Congress (Elohim), yet separately its leader (EL).

Jehovah (God) is part of the Elohim (God, in Christian terms, Divine Ones in Judsaism) and rules over the Elohim. Who are the Elohim? Refer to the Strong’s definition listed above and you will find it includes a group of heavenly beings including angels…I submit that the Messiah as a divine being is among the group of Elohim.

Again, using the analogy of the President and Congress of the USA, I will include the Messiah as part of the Elohim (Godhead, sons of God). Jesus (Vice President) serves under EL (President) yet he, Jesus, is above the Elohim (Congress) in hierarchal order. However, as the Vice President is above the Congress, he is by definition part of the Congress. Just as the President is above Congress, yet he is by definition part of Congress. The Elohhim are one….in that they serve Jehovah, who is number 1 in it’s hierarchy.

In another bad but workable comparison, Deu 6:4 paraphrased states:

“Hear O USA, George Bush your Congressman, is the only George Bushâ€Â.

Or,

“Hear O USA, George Bush your Congressman is the Leaderâ€Â.

Where George Bush is the personal name of the Leader of Congress, and Congress consists of a group of individuals who are above the common man. The repeat of George Bush affirms that he alone is the number One man, and that there is only one George Bush.




The Problem: Interpretation of definitions

Trinitarian Christianity interprets “Elohim†as “God (Father), God (Son), God (HS)â€Â. A three in one Godhead. This meets their need of having the Old Testament prove that Jesus as God in their definition of the Godhead. However, none of the Hebrew definitions of “Elohim†as given by Strong’s Concordance include “God (Son) and God (HS)â€Â. Having said that, since Elohim is a plural of El, in the Trinitarian thought process, something must fill that void to make the trinity work in this verse. In other words they need to make a plural, single, yet plural. Thus, they add their own definition to “Elohimâ€Â, in other words, they disregard the definitions as given above, and add “God (Son) and God (HS)â€Â, instead of Jehovah, Messiah, and the Angel’a (divine ones). That works if you disregard Judaism and insert your own definition of “Elohim†to fit your cause.

Judaism on the other hand doesn’t consider the HS as a person so it can’t be included in the Elohim. The Messiah does however fit as part of the Elohim because he is a divine being. What are counted as Elohim in Judaism include divine beings such as the preincarnate Messiah, and the angels.


Now that it has been established that Elohim means God Family (or divine group) meaning a range of heavenly entities, we can establish who the Messiah is and that he is not Jehovah, but he is part of the Elohim (Heavenly Group).


It's all about the misinterpretation of terms....

 

[JM]

Hey Georges, just wondering, what's your background in the orignal tongues, where did you study? I always find it difficult to go to the orignal tongues, I have no background whatsoever.

 

[Georges]

Hey Georges, just wondering, what's your background in the orignal tongues, where did you study? I always find it difficult to go to the orignal tongues, I have no background whatsoever.

Officially...none...I'm just an average joe who does an awful lot of research. The resources I use are available to everyone....Wish I had 30 years back in my life, I'd be studying so I could have the letters (phd, professor of thinkology ) after my name. Maybe I'd be taken a little more seriously.

In my OP, what doesn't translate from my paper to the text box here is the Shema verse I quote in Hebrew along with the Strong's definition of each word, breaking down the Shema as a Jew would understand it. Using the Jewish encyclopedia for the concepts of God, Elohim etc....it's not hard to figure out what word goes where.

It is quite clear and easy to understand how the concept of God is so different between Judaism and Christianity.

I am an electronic techician by trade and by no means an expert in any language (especially English). So if that is to my discredit for some....I think I put up a pretty good thesis and not easily argued.

I would like an expert to tell me why what I had presented wouldn't work...especially with the concepts used as examples are concerned.

 

[R7-12]

This is the most accurate rendering of John 1:1,

In the begining was the logos and the logos was towards the theos and the logos was theos.

It shows that the logos was created as the beginning of God's creation of the spiritual realm (Rev. 3:14). The logos looked towards THE THEOS, or faced Him, in subjection to His God and Father. The logos was of the same divine nature as THE God, as a generation of the Father and thus was an elohim or theos as are all spiritbeings.

Satan is also a theos or elohim and is the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4).

The concepts are difficult for most to understand initially but the relevant texts will bear all this out for those who genuinely seek the truth.

There are many more texts which also reveal these concepts.

R7-12

 

[Georges]

This is the most accurate rendering of John 1:1,

In the begining was the logos and the logos was towards the theos and the logos was theos.

In the Greek yes it is....but the Greek doesn't translate the Hebrew concept of the "Word", therefore it isn't the most accurate translation. John was Hebrew writting to Jews....conveying Jewish concepts. Those translating to Greek use greek terminology/concept experience to again explain Hebrew principles. Logos (a term of philosophy) is the closest Greek definition of the Hebrew "Memra"

It shows that the logos was created as the beginning of God's creation of the spiritual realm (Rev. 3:14).


Again...the Memra....a Jewish principle.

The logos looked towards THE THEOS, or faced Him, in subjection to His God and Father. The logos was of the same divine nature as THE God, as a generation of the Father and thus was an elohim or theos as are all spiritbeings.

Correct, but again, use Hebrew terms and not Greek terms....it causes less confusion.


Satan is also a theos or elohim and is the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4).

Correct, Satan is currently a member of the elohim. Satan as an angel still roams between Heaven and Earth...and will do so until he is finally thrown out of heaven...Rev 12: 7-9.

The concepts are difficult for most to understand initially but the relevant texts will bear all this out for those who genuinely seek the truth.

I will agree, however, since these are Jewish concepts and principles, Jewish terms should be used to avoid confusion.

There are many more texts which also reveal these concepts.

R7-12

R7-12, In the OP, I cut and paste excerpts from a paper that I am currently devloping...in it I explain what the Jewish concept of what the "Word (NT)", "Memra (OT)" is and it's connection with the Messiah.

Here is the except I thought I put in the OP but did not...

***********************************************************

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the (Memra), and the (Memra) was with Jehovah, and the (Memra) was Elohim (part of the heavenly group including Jehovah, Messiah, and angels).
Jhn 1:2 The (Memra) was in the beginning with Jehovah.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by the (Memra); and without the (Memra) was not any thing made that was made.

Note (GWS): By using the Jewish interpretation of the terms defined in Deu 6:4, John 1:1-3 takes on a whole different meaning than given by the traditional Christian interpretation. In the Western interpretation of the Greek translation, John 1:1 can only be interpreted in terms of “Jesus is God†but, since John was a Hebrew, the verse must be translated using Hebrew terms. Once this is done, the proper perspective is obtained.

From the article “Memra†as copied from http://www.Jewishencyclopedia.com:

"The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.

*(Note GWS): What the opening statement is suggesting is that Jehovah who is Holy, because of his glory, cannot deal with man on a personal/physical level. Therefore the active Memra (Word) of Jehovah is used in his place when dealing with man.

Anthropomorphic: 1 : described or thought of as having a human form or human attributes
2 : ascribing human characteristics to nonhuman things

Biblical Data:

In Scripture "the word of the Lord" commonly denotes the speech addressed to patriarch or prophet (Gen. 15:1; Num. 12:6, 23:5; I Sam. 3:21; Amos 5:1-8); but frequently it denotes also the creative word: "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made" (Ps. 33:6; comp. "For He spake, and it was done"; "He sendeth his word, and melteth them [the ice]"; "Fire and hail; snow, and vapors; stormy wind fulfilling his word"; Ps. 33:9, 147:18, 148:8). In this sense it is said, "For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven" (Ps. 119:89). "The Word," heard and announced by the prophet, often became, in the conception of the seer, an efficacious power apart from God, as was the angel or messenger of God: "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel" (Isa. 9:7 [A. V. 8], 55:11); "He sent his word, and healed them" (Ps. 107:20); and comp. "his word runneth very swiftly" (Ps. 147:15).

Memra, as the Personification of the Word:

1. In Apocryphal and Rabbinical Literature:

While in the Book of Jubilees, 12:22, the word of God is sent through the angel to Abraham, in other cases it becomes more and more a personified agency: "By the word of God exist His works" (Ecclus. [Sirach] 42:15); "The Holy One, blessed be He, created the world by the 'Ma'amar'" (Mek., Beshallah, 10, with reference to Ps. 33:6). Quite frequent is the expression, especially in the liturgy, "Thou who hast made the universe with Thy word and ordained man through Thy wisdom to rule over the creatures made by Thee" (Wisdom 9:1; comp. "Who by Thy words causest the evenings to bring darkness, who openest the gates of the sky by Thy wisdom"; . . . "who by His speech created the heavens, and by the breath of His mouth all their hosts"; through whose "words all things were created"; see Singer's "Daily Prayer-Book," pp. 96, 290, 292). So also in IV Esdras 6:38 ("Lord, Thou spakest on the first day of Creation: 'Let there be heaven and earth,' and Thy word hath accomplished the work"). "Thy word, O Lord, healeth all things" (Wisdom 16:12); "Thy word preserveth them that put their trust in Thee" (l.c. 16:26). Especially strong is the personification of the word in Wisdom 18:15: "Thine Almighty Word leaped down from heaven out of Thy royal throne as a fierce man of war." The Mishnah, with reference to the ten passages in Genesis (ch. 1) beginning with "And God said," speaks of the ten "ma'amarot" (= "speeches") by which the world was created (Abot 5:1; comp. Gen. R. 4:2: "The upper heavens are held in suspense by the creative Ma'amar"). Out of every speech which emanated from God an angel was created (Hag. 14a). "The Word called none but Moses" (Lev. R. 1:4, 5). "The Word went forth from the right hand of God and made a circuit around the camp of Israel" (Cant. R. 1:13).

Note (GWS): The Memra is “a personified Agentâ€Â, God’s representative as if God himself were there.

2. In the Targum:

In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity. Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. 1:32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. 18:19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. 9:3; comp. Targ. Isa. 30:27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. 32:35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. 6:7; comp. Targ. I Kings 18:24; Hos. 13:14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra," is met with in Targ. Ex. 19:17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. 25:22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). "I will cover thee with My Memra," instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. 33:22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. 26:30; comp. Isa. 1:14, 42:1; Jer. 6:8; Ezek. 23:18). "The voice of the Memra," instead of "God," is heard (Gen. 3:8; Deut. 4:33, 36; 5:21; Isa. 6:8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. 5:5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes a "sign between My Memra and you" (Ex. 31:13, 17; comp. Lev. 26:46; Gen. 9:12; 17:2, 7, 10; Ezek. 20:12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. 20:3), and to Balaam (Num. 23:4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. 23:21; Deut. 1:30, 33:3; Targ. Isa. 63:14; Jer. 31:1; Hos. 9:10 [comp. 11:3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. 45:12).

The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. 21:23, 22:6, 24:3; Ex. 32:13; Num. 14:30; Isa. 45:23; Ezek. 20:5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. 6:6, 8:21; I Sam. 15:11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. 48:13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. 48:11; II Kings 14:34). Through the Memra, God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. 26:90; II Kings 13:23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. 15:1), and is with Moses (Ex. 3:12; 4:12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. 10:35, 36; Isa. 63:14). It is the Memra, not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. 16:8; Num. 14:5; I Kings 8:50; II Kings 19:28; Isa. 1:2, 16; 45:3, 20; Hos. 5:7, 6:7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. 5:21, 6:2; Deut. 5:11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. 45:25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. 22:24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. 15:6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. 14:31; Jer. 39:18, 49:11).

3. Mediatorship:

Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. 23:21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. The Memra brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" (Targ. Yer. to Deut. 4:7). It shielded Noah from the flood (Targ. Yer. to Gen. 7:16) and brought about the dispersion of the seventy nations (l.c. 11:8); it is the guardian of Jacob (Gen. 28:20-21, 35:3) and of Israel (Targ. Yer. to Ex. 12:23, 29); it works all the wonders in Egypt (l.c. 13:8, 14:25); hardens the heart of Pharaoh (l.c. 13:15); goes before Israel in the wilderness (Targ. Yer. to Ex. 20:1); blesses Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. 23:8); battles for the people (Targ. Josh. 3:7, 10:14, 23:3). As in ruling over the destiny of man the Memra is the agent of God (Targ. Yer. to Num. 27:16), so also is it in the creation of the earth (Isa. 45:12) and in the execution of justice (Targ. Yer. to Num. 33:4). So, in the future, shall the Memra be the comforter (Targ. Isa. 65:13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. 22:12). "My Memra shall be unto you like a good plowman who takes off the yoke from the shoulder of the oxen"; "the Memra will roar to gather the exiled" (Targ. Hos. 11:5, 10). The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. 29:23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. 31:9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. 32: 41). "In the Memra the redemption will be found" (Targ. Zech. 12:5). "The holy Word" was the subject of the hymns of Job (Test. of Job, 12:3, ed. Kohler).

Note (GWS): Notice how many descriptive functions attributed to the Memra sound like the very things attributed to Jesus.

 

[R7-12]

Hi Georges,

You said,

I will agree, however, since these are Jewish concepts and principles, Jewish terms should be used to avoid confusion.

Perhaps you are aware of this, but a Jew is someone of the tribe of Judah, one of twelve tribes constituting Israel.

Thus, many of the concepts you speak of would be better referred to as "Hebrew" rather than 'Jewish" concepts.

The term "Jewish" is connected to Judaism which for the most part corrupted the truth and rejected the righteousness of God. Thus, reference to things "Jewish" or "Judaism" specifically, would give an inaccurate impression, unless of course, that reference was intended.

I am aware of the terms, application and understanding of memra, elohim, theos, theoi etc.. Your use here of some Hebrew terms in association with Greek Scriptures to convey a certain understanding appears to be correct, however I would assume for some it may prove to be confusing or difficult to accept due to the mixture of Hebrew and Greek terms together with an English rendering. Or perhaps some may recoil from it due to personal bias.

I would suspect that leading the reader through the correct understanding of the meanings and concepts revealed in the words associated with a text, would prove to be more effective than imposing the application of Hebrew concepts or the idea that John was originally written in Hebrew, upon the reader.

And perhaps this is where you are intending to go, or have gone - I haven't read the lengthy posts above as yet..

R7-12

 

[Georges]

Hi Georges,

You said,

I will agree, however, since these are Jewish concepts and principles, Jewish terms should be used to avoid confusion.

Perhaps you are aware of this, but a Jew is someone of the tribe of Judah, one of twelve tribes constituting Israel.

Very aware...all fall under Judaism...

Thus, many of the concepts you speak of would be better referred to as "Hebrew" rather than 'Jewish" concepts.

Come on....they are synonomous....especially in forumland.

The term "Jewish" is connected to Judaism which for the most part corrupted the truth and rejected the righteousness of God. Thus, reference to things "Jewish" or "Judaism" specifically, would give an inaccurate impression, unless of course, that reference was intended.

Not quite....I don't agree with your statement, but that's ok...each has his own opinions... Even though "some" of it may be corrupt..ie "Man's interpretation, Talmud etc" I think you would agree that even "corrupt" Jewish commentary is better than Hellenist Gentile Philosophy in interpreting Biblical concepts.

I am aware of the terms, application and understanding of memra, elohim, theos, theoi etc.. Your use here of some Hebrew terms in association with Greek Scriptures to convey a certain understanding appears to be correct, however I would assume for some it may prove to be confusing or difficult to accept due to the mixture of Hebrew and Greek terms together with an English rendering. Or perhaps some may recoil from it due to personal bias.

Agreed there....I will submit that 95% of Christianity have never heard of the terms and 99% on the (most) forums...

I would suspect that leading the reader through the correct understanding of the meanings and concepts revealed in the words associated with a text, would prove to be more effective than imposing the application of Hebrew concepts or the idea that John was originally written in Hebrew, upon the reader.

Still I must introduce that as fact...John was a Hebrew....Hebrews have certain concepts that are foreign to Western thinking. Hellenist Jews have a different understanding than Jews of the Land...

And perhaps this is where you are intending to go, or have gone - I haven't read the lengthy posts above as yet..

Please do....you may have seen the info somewhere, maybe not. If not, you can say at least you've read it...I think you will be interested.

Sorry about the length...It is necessary.
R7-12

 

[R7-12]

Perhaps you are aware of this, but a Jew is someone of the tribe of Judah, one of twelve tribes constituting Israel.

Very aware...all fall under Judaism...

Thus, many of the concepts you speak of would be better referred to as "Hebrew" rather than 'Jewish" concepts.

Come on....they are synonomous....especially in forumland.

Not so. And it is especially important to be accurate in “forumland†because of the potentially large audience that may be influenced by inaccuracies and error.

Judah and Israel at one point were divided into two separate nations, fought against one another and have never been re-united. What is called “Israel in the Middle East today does not included descendants of the tribes of Israel and consists of only some of the descendants of Judah mixed with Edom and Moab.

Judaism did not exist prior to the Northern House of Israel being overrun, taken captive, and then dispersed with the Assyrians when Babylon attacked.

Later, after the Southern House of Judah was taken by the Babylonians, exiled, and then allowed to return 70 years later, they attempted to restore their relationship with God. However, the priests that were sent back from Babylon to teach them were not of the faithful and thus incorporated many Babylonian rituals and teachings from the Eastern Sun Cult systems into their practices. It is this form of religion which the Jews developed and became known as Judaism and it completely excluded the tribes of Israel who had long been dispersed throughout Europe and beyond to “the isles afar off.â€Â

That is why by the first century, Judaism was wholly corrupt and thus Christ rejected the traditions and customs and interpretations of the Scribes (priests) and Pharisees concerning the law – they were corrupt and unscriptural. They would read from the Hebrew Scriptures and teach the words of Moses, but they did not live by them and therefore were not examples of correct obedience and faithfulness to God and were evil inwardly. That’s why Christ called them “serpents†and “a brood of vipersâ€Â, sons of their father – the devil and “an evil and adulterous generation†(Matthew 12:33-42; 23:1-39). The Apostle Paul also spoke against Judaism after his conversion (Galatians 1:11-17).

However,
The Lord will save the tents of Judah first so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah (Zechariah 12:7).

The terms “Hebrew†or “Israel†are definitely not synonymous with “Jewish†and any learned scholar will tell you that.

All Jews may be Hebrew but all Hebrews are not from the tribe of Judah and therefore cannot be Jewish. That is the fact of the matter.

It would be helpful if a little bit more effort and care was taken when representing the two houses of Israel and Judah and the tribes therein. Otherwise confusion and misrepresentation are unavoidable.

I hope this clarifies.

R7-12

 

[R7-12]

BTW, I began reading the first long post above until it was evident the information concerning the names of God is quite in error.

Please consider examining this paper which I have read numerous times and found it to be unrefutable. The Names of God

R7-12

 

[Georges]

Perhaps you are aware of this, but a Jew is someone of the tribe of Judah, one of twelve tribes constituting Israel.

Very aware...all fall under Judaism...

Thus, many of the concepts you speak of would be better referred to as "Hebrew" rather than 'Jewish" concepts.

Come on....they are synonomous....especially in forumland.

Not so. And it is especially important to be accurate in “forumland†because of the potentially large audience that may be influenced by inaccuracies and error.

We will have to agree to disagree on this point...From reading some of your posts, my impression is that you are fixed on that point and I won't be able to change that...and I don't think you will change my mind on it...

Judah and Israel at one point were divided into two separate nations, fought against one another and have never been re-united. What is called “Israel in the Middle East today does not included descendants of the tribes of Israel and consists of only some of the descendants of Judah mixed with Edom and Moab.

You can't claim that...it is speculation at best (albeit, I'll agree with you)...That the 12 tribes will be back in the land during the Messianic Kingdom age is a prophectic fact. The common bonding of the 12 tribes in the future will be Jehovah and the Messiah. Where the 12 tribes are now, only God knows...It is proven (DNA) that the tribe of Judah and Levi are in existence...I'm sure that God (the maker of DNA) can separate the other tribes when it comes time. Prophecy states that the 2 houses will reunite again...

Judaism did not exist prior to the Northern House of Israel being overrun, taken captive, and then dispersed with the Assyrians when Babylon attacked.

Please....the religious practice of Judaism (or whatever you want to call it), was instituted at Sinai (actually before). Now if you are just giving me the history lesson because Judah, Benjamen, and Levi were the only tribes to return....that's really nit picking...

Later, after the Southern House of Judah was taken by the Babylonians, exiled, and then allowed to return 70 years later, they attempted to restore their relationship with God. However, the priests that were sent back from Babylon to teach them were not of the faithful and thus incorporated many Babylonian rituals and teachings from the Eastern Sun Cult systems into their practices.

That's laughable....yes, they were faithful and made an honest attempt to restore the Jewish (Levitical, Mosaic) religion back to it's proper order. Yes, there were abominations at times, but God did clean house every now and then as was needed.

It is this form of religion which the Jews developed and became known as Judaism and it completely excluded the tribes of Israel who had long been dispersed throughout Europe and beyond to “the isles afar off.â€Â

Hmmm.....

That is why by the first century, Judaism was wholly corrupt and thus Christ rejected the traditions and customs and interpretations of the Scribes (priests) and Pharisees concerning the law – they were corrupt and unscriptural.

Not necessarily....Judaism wasn't corrupt...Most men tried to do what they thought Jehovah required them to do...following Torah isn't corruption. The man made laws surrounding Torah law was unecessary. The motive for the man made laws was good (Torah protection), but in practice they were not. This was the burden placed on the people.

I will agree that the Roman placed High Priesthood were corrupt, however, the average Pharisee was not. Misguided by tradition? maybe....corrupt, no.


They would read from the Hebrew Scriptures and teach the words of Moses, but they did not live by them and therefore were not examples of correct obedience and faithfulness to God and were evil inwardly.

Agreed...

That’s why Christ called them “serpents†and “a brood of vipersâ€Â, sons of their father – the devil and “an evil and adulterous generation†(Matthew 12:33-42; 23:1-39). The Apostle Paul also spoke against Judaism after his conversion (Galatians 1:11-17).

Of course....Paul's blend of Mystery Religion, Gnosticism and Judasim didn't agree with the Apostles Jesus taught Judaism.....that is pure Torah obedience.

However,
The Lord will save the tents of Judah first so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah (Zechariah 12:7).

The terms “Hebrew†or “Israel†are definitely not synonymous with “Jewish†and any learned scholar will tell you that.

Thanks for telling me that Mr. "Learned Scholar" . and, until the tribes are reunited....yes they are synonomous. If you are Jewish, you are from the tribe of Judah, which is one of the tribes of Israel, which is descended from Eber....again, you are nit picking.

All Jews may be Hebrew but all Hebrews are not from the tribe of Judah and therefore cannot be Jewish. That is the fact of the matter.

nit picking..sorry, until the 12 tribes are back in the land, Judaism, Israel, and Hebrew are synomous...If you want to start a historical thread concerning events the kings (where a distinction must be made)....then you may have a legit point...but, not at this time.

It would be helpful if a little bit more effort and care was taken when representing the two houses of Israel and Judah and the tribes therein. Otherwise confusion and misrepresentation are unavoidable.

come on... :roll: ..

I hope this clarifies.

It didn't.....nice try though....the history lesson (albeit not completely accurate) makes it sound like you have some crediblitly....are you ever called on it?

R7-12

Back to the OP? I really don't want to get side tracked from the opening post.

 

[Georges]

BTW, I began reading the first long post above until it was evident the information concerning the names of God is quite in error.

Quite in Error? :-D I think not....to say that it is without posting the quote and refutation is irresponsible...Sorry my friend...I think you may be misleading the posters...Of course I could be wrong, please post what name is wrong and why.

Please consider examining this paper which I have read numerous times and found it to be unrefutable.


Read it before and found it very interesting... but flawed...it makes the attempt to claim that Jesus is Jehovah...which he is not....

The Names of God

R7-12

 

[Bick]

John 1:1-3, a proper translation

Hi Georges. Your quoting from the Jewish encyclopedia is well taken, but they are too often their interpretaions.

The truth of the Scriptures, is not only to know the etymological meaning, but how words are used in their context.

The first place "Elohim" occurs in Gen. 1:1 which connects it to creation, and gives it its essential meaning as The Creator.

And its in the NT that we discover that all things were created through the Word (John 1:3), the expression of God. And the Word is identified in Col.1:15 as "Christ Jesus, the image of the invisible God, the first born (the pre-emminent One) of all creation. for in him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him." RSV. Parenthesis mine.

Since the Jewish scholars are speaking only from the Hebrew Scriptures, IMO they had to come up with some explanation of "Elohim" being plural, and so they made it include "heavenly beings".

If you believe the NT is also the word of God, then read Colossians one.
Christ was before all other heavenly beings because he created them.

In Heb. 1, It is the Son in these last days in whom God has spoken, just as He did of old by the prophets. God appointed Him heir of all things. He (Christ Jesus) "reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of His nature, upholding the universe by the word of his power." RSV.

As for the verse in Rev.3:14 "...The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation." I think of Christ Jesus as God's Creative Original.

I know Georges, you are discrediting the "Trinity". Well, I will confess that I understand God as 'Spirit', invisible power, has set forth a Holy Spirit, that is, set apart to do a special work, but I don't see It as a person.

All for now, Bick

 

[Skipdawg]

Awesome thread and study. Let the Holy Spirit be your guide. :wink:

 

[Georges]

Re: John 1:1-3, a proper translation

Hi Georges. Your quoting from the Jewish encyclopedia is well taken, but they are too often their interpretaions.

With all due respect Bick.....personally, I perfer to go with the interpretation of the people God choose as the apple of his eye...after all, they are the ones to whom scripture was given 1500 years plus before Christianity was invented ( :D )...They are also the ones that God spoke to directely and interacted with. I don't trust the interpretation of Gentile Hellenist philosophers who convert to a religion they know nothing about.

The truth of the Scriptures, is not only to know the etymological meaning, but how words are used in their context.

I agree 100% that is what I'm trying to present in the OP.
The first place "Elohim" occurs in Gen. 1:1 which connects it to creation, and gives it its essential meaning as The Creator.

And its in the NT that we discover that all things were created through the Word (John 1:3), the expression of God. And the Word is identified in Col.1:15 as "Christ Jesus, the image of the invisible God, the first born (the pre-emminent One) of all creation. for in him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him." RSV. Parenthesis mine.

Agree 100%....Word is the OT Memra (the Jewish understanding of the creative Word of God).

Since the Jewish scholars are speaking only from the Hebrew Scriptures, IMO they had to come up with some explanation of "Elohim" being plural, and so they made it include "heavenly beings".

Again Bick, the Jewish patriarchs and select men (Kings and Prophets among others) spoke with God directly (or via the Memra) and so I think they would have a good handle on what Elohim means...on the other hand, would a Christian theologian of the 200-300's who lived in Egypt or Italy have a better understanding of "Hebrew" principles than the Israelites themselves? Tough for me to buy that one...I gues it could be possible...

If you believe the NT is also the word of God, then read Colossians one.
Christ was before all other heavenly beings because he created them.

I don't believe that entire NT is the inspired word of God...I do believe that the OT is....I believe that the Gospels (originally) could have been inspired but, historically, are altered. The letters of Paul....no way. The Book of Revelation is the only book written in the style of the OT prophetical books, and is the only book in the NT where the author is told to "write". It also is the only book that gives a warning against editing.

Having said that, I don't discount Paul completely...I do agree with your statement that Chirst (Messiah) was involed in the creation. That is consistent with the duties of the Memra.

In Heb. 1, It is the Son in these last days in whom God has spoken, just as He did of old by the prophets. God appointed Him heir of all things. He (Christ Jesus) "reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of His nature, upholding the universe by the word of his power." RSV.

As for the verse in Rev.3:14 "...The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation." I think of Christ Jesus as God's Creative Original.

Agree 100% and that would agree with Judaism's concept of Messiah as one of the seven things created before day 1.

I know Georges, you are discrediting the "Trinity". Well, I will confess that I understand God as 'Spirit', invisible power, has set forth a Holy Spirit, that is, set apart to do a special work, but I don't see It as a person.

I'm not trying to discredit that trinity...the explanation of the trinity as given by the Nicean creed does that well enough. I simply am seeking the truth for myself. The trinity is a mystery...no one can explain it therefore everyone's explanation for it works....in other words in explaining the trinity there are no rules, you can make up your own definitions..

I don't think Jehovah operates that way....It is God alone. EL, the head of the Elohim....

All for now, Bick

 

[KaerbEmEvig]

I really pity people who consider Judaism corrupted. Jews didn't believe Jesus was the annointed one, as his disciples preached, because he didn't fulfill any of the prophecies. For more reference see askmoses.com

Also - don't try to tell me that Jews do not understand their own prophecies, it was them who has written those and it was them who was meant to fulfill them - of course they understood them, for sure better than you do.

 

[Georges]

I really pity people who consider Judaism corrupted. Jews didn't believe Jesus was the annointed one, as his disciples preached, because he didn't fulfill any of the prophecies. For more reference see askmoses.com

That's not necessarily true....there were at least 3-4 men who claimed to be the Messiah at that time whom the Jews accepted....Jesus was one of them. The Jews attitude, "If he is the Messiah, he will remove Roman power...if he isn't, the Romans will get rid of him...." So the Jews did accept him....the Sadducees did not.

Also - don't try to tell me that Jews do not understand their own prophecies, it was them who has written those and it was them who was meant to fulfill them - of course they understood them, for sure better than you do.

 

[KaerbEmEvig]

You still don't understand. No Jew accepted him for fulfilling prophecies. One of those prophecies was Israel raigining in power = thus getting rid of Romans. Jesus' disciples believed in him because he performed miracles - Deutronomy clearly states that is NO REASON to believe someone to be messiah. YHWH will send false prophets that can perform miracles to test Jewish faith in heart.

Jewish messiah isn't some weird imgainated picture of a messiah made up later on by Christians. Jewish messiah is simply future king - word used in the way 'dolphin' is used in Europe for kingship successors. Jesus didn't fit in as a messiah - so they didn't consider him one. Messiah isn't someone who will perform humanity salvation by his death.

For future referrence: askmoses.com on messiah topic. You can read about prohpecies and use of messiah word. You will see how way off topic you are.

 

[Vic C.]

Messiah isn't someone who will perform humanity salvation by his death.

I totally disagree. George and I started to discuss this in another thread. I had pointed him to a couple Messianic passages that are contrary to what you are saying.

Please see our posts at these links.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... nic#268749

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... nic#269158

 

[KaerbEmEvig]

Then point them out now. I will explain what they mean, unlike those Christian overinterpretations - read: text maniputaltions - postulate=].

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Hey Vic and Georges,

I hope you don't mind me butting in...

Psalm 16:10; 30:3 - He will not be spared from death and yet remain incorrupt - Acts 2:31; 13:33,35 - Jesus conquered death and remained incorrupt.
Psalm 22:1 - My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? - Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34 - Jesus utters this rabbinical formula from the cross declaring that He is the Messiah.
Psalm 22:7 - the people will wag their heads at Him - Matt. 27:39; Mark 15:29 - the people wagged their heads at Jesus on the cross.
Psalm 22:7 - He will be mocked - Matt. 27:31; Mark 15:20; Luke 22:63; 23:36 - Jesus was mocked.
Psalm 22:16; Isa. 53:12 - He will be numbered with the transgressors - Matt. 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18 - Jesus was numbered with the transgressors by being crucified between two thieves.
Psalm 22:16; Zech 12:10 - His hands and feet will be pierced and they will weep for the first-born - John 19:23,34,37 - Jesus' hands and feet were pierced and his followers wept for Him, the true first-born Son of Israel.
Psalm 22:17 - they will stare and gloat over Him - Matt. 27:36; Luke 23:35 - the people stood by and stared at Jesus on the cross.
Psalm 22:18 - they will divide His garments among them - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23 - they divided Jesus' garments among them.
Psalm 22:18 - they will cast lots for His garments - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:24 - they cast lots for Jesus' garments.
Psalm 30:3; 41:10, 118:17; Hos 6:2 - He will be raised to life on the third day - Acts 13:33, Matt. 28:6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:34,46 - Jesus was raised to life on the third day.
Psalm 34:20 - He will not have broken bones - John 19:33,36 - none of Jesus' bones were broken.
Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14 - He will be betrayed by a friend - Matt. 10:4; 26:20-25; Mark 14:18-21; John 13:18 - Jesus was betrayed by a friend.
Psalm 68:18 - He will ascend into heaven - Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:9 - Jesus ascended into heaven.
Psalm 68:20 - He will escape the powers of death - Acts 2:31; 13:33; Matt 28:6; Mark 16:6, Luke 24:46; John 20:9-10 - Jesus escaped the powers of death through his resurrection.
Psalm 69:21 - they will give Him vinegar to drink - Matt. 27:34,48; Mark 15:23,36; Luke 23:36; John 19:29 - they gave Jesus vinegar to drink.
Psalm 110:1 - He will sit at the right hand of God - Heb. 1:3; Acts 2:34-35 - Jesus sits at the right hand of God.
Isaiah 50:6 - He will be spat upon - Matt. 26:67; Mark 15:19 - Jesus was spat upon.
Isaiah 50:6; Mic. 5:1 - the ruler of Israel's cheek will be struck - Matt. 26:67; Luke 22:63; John 18:22 - Jesus was so struck and beaten.
Isaiah 53:5; Zech. 13:6 - He was wounded, bruised and scourged for us - Matt. 27:26; Mark 15:15; John 19:1 - Jesus was wounded, bruised and scourged for us.
Isaiah 53:7 - He will remain silent before His accusers - Matt. 27:12,14; Mark 14:61;15:5; Luke 23:9; John 19:9 - Jesus remained silent before His accusers.
Isaiah 53:8-10; Dan. 9:26 - the anointed one shall be cut off and die - Luke 23:46; 24:7; John 19:30 - Jesus the Messiah died.
Isaiah 53:9 - He will be buried in a rich man's tomb - Matt. 27:57-60; Mark 15:42-46; Luke 23:50-53; John 19:38-42 - Jesus was buried in a rich man's tomb (the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea).
Isaiah 53:12 - He will make intercession for the transgressors - Luke 23:34,43 - Jesus made intercession for the transgressors on the cross.
Amos 8:9 - God will darken the earth at noon - Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44-45 - there was darkness at noon at Jesus' crucifixion and death.
Jonah 1:17 - three nights and days in the belly of the whale foreshadows Jesus' death and rising on the third day.
Mic. 1:8 - He will lament and wail, and will go stripped and naked - John 19:23-24 - Jesus lamented and was stripped and naked.
Zech. 11:12-13 - He will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver - Matt. 26:15 - Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.
Zech. 11:13 - the pieces of silver are cast into God's house - Matt. 27:5 - Judas threw the pieces of silver into the Temple.
Zech. 12:10 - His side will be pierced - John 19:34, 37 - Jesus' side was pierced.
Zech. 13:7 - He will be forsaken by His disciples who will scatter - Matt. 26:31, Mark. 14:50 - Jesus' disciples forsook Him and scattered.


Among others...