John 3:13 Is this Elijah? Melchezidek?

[Croc7801]

FYI - here is another of those verses.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

We know this was before his crucifixion, but is referenced as if it were after. You are correct! God is not limited to time and space as we are, but most don't seem to realize that.

Has nothing to do with time and space; it is the way the Greek reads. It is common to use the past tense for something that is so sure it is as though it already happened. You will see this all over Scripture.

One of the best and most delightful examples is Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

All this is past tense because it is so sure for those that are the called or being called or have yet to be called; that it as though it already happened. God chose this Greek language for all of its nuances IMO; it is quite wonderful.

God bless!

 

[Croc7801]

No the Bible would not be incorrect, in the fact that Elijah did ascend into heaven. Just not into the third heaven, or Gods presence. Prior to Jesus taking captivity captive, no one had ascended anywhere except paradise.

Because if that were the case, Jesus would be a liar. He said that no man had ascended into heaven, except he who first descended. He spoke of himself.

This is the best explanation i have seen and it accords with all of Scripture. They put it in better words than I could.

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/wher ... lijah.html

 

[bodhitharta]

No the Bible would not be incorrect, in the fact that Elijah did ascend into heaven. Just not into the third heaven, or Gods presence. Prior to Jesus taking captivity captive, no one had ascended anywhere except paradise.

Because if that were the case, Jesus would be a liar. He said that no man had ascended into heaven, except he who first descended. He spoke of himself.

This is the best explanation i have seen and it accords with all of Scripture. They put it in better words than I could.

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/wher ... lijah.html

Enoch may be a mystery but the bible clearly says that Elijah was taken up to heaven, why would we debate the bible. It would not make Jesus a liar because Jesus did not say "only one person has ascended to heaven"

He said no one has ascended except the one who came down that could be thousands for instance angels have ascended and descended from heaven since time began but the Son of man was not only referred to mean Jesus for we are all the son of man

 

[Croc7801]

No the Bible would not be incorrect, in the fact that Elijah did ascend into heaven. Just not into the third heaven, or Gods presence. Prior to Jesus taking captivity captive, no one had ascended anywhere except paradise.

Because if that were the case, Jesus would be a liar. He said that no man had ascended into heaven, except he who first descended. He spoke of himself.

This is the best explanation i have seen and it accords with all of Scripture. They put it in better words than I could.

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/wher ... lijah.html

Enoch may be a mystery but the bible clearly says that Elijah was taken up to heaven, why would we debate the bible. It would not make Jesus a liar because Jesus did not say "only one person has ascended to heaven"

He said no one has ascended except the one who came down that could be thousands for instance angels have ascended and descended from heaven since time began but the Son of man was not only referred to mean Jesus for we are all the son of man

It is not a matter of debating the Bible; there are 3 heavens the Bible describes. The heaven used in 2Kings is the heaven directly above the earth.

Further more Jesus said "NO ONE has ascended into heaven". Jesus did not use the phrase you mentioned above "only one person", but "no one" would include your phrase. Therefore, we have to dig deeper to know what the Lord is and has said. Do you follow?

Read the link I provided I believe if you check it against Scripture, you will come into agreement.

God bless and happy searching.

Tanner

John 3:13
"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of ManHe said no one has ascended except the one who came down that could be thousands for instance angels have ascended and descended from heaven since time began but the Son of man was not only referred to mean Jesus for we are all the son of man

 

[samuel]

That is the idea, I have been trying to get across. That neither Elijah or Enoch were taken in to the third heaven, or the presence of Gods throne. But I disagree, that they were just transported to a different physical location on this earth.

Both Elijah and Enoch were translated (raptured, but not with glorified bodies), they would just have passed from a physical state, to a spiritual. Therefore neither tasted of physical death, or were physically buried, but in the twinkling of an eye were changed. And again at that time the destination for both the Souls of the good, and evil was hadies. But a part of it, the part for the good was known as paradise (not the third heaven), otherwise known as Abrahams bosom.

 

[bodhitharta]

Try as you guys may but you are speculating Jesus didn't say no one has ascended to the "third" heaven, he said heaven. He said no one has ascended but the one who has descended and at the time Jesus was speaking had he ascended to heaven? no!

Jesus Ascended to heaven after the "resurrection" It doesn't matter if he had been in heaven before he was born because he descended and only ascended after coming here, but in John he is talking about Ascending and Descending and at that time he had not ascended, look:

John 3:12-14 (King James Version)

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 20:16-18 (King James Version)

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; I am not yet ascended to my Father: go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Now this proves the point and just to make sure you don't misunderstand it look:

Ephesians 4:8-10 (King James Version)

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

So this shows that Jesus descended first and later ascended and this was after the statement that no one had ascended but he that descended.

Tell me who was the Father or Mother of Elijah?

Elijah had to come before the Messiah i.e. Descension

Elijah was taken up to Heaven i.e. Ascension

 

[Croc7801]

Try as you guys may but you are speculating Jesus didn't say no one has ascended to the "third" heaven, he said heaven. He said no one has ascended but the one who has descended and at the time Jesus was speaking had he ascended to heaven? no!

Jesus Ascended to heaven after the "resurrection" It doesn't matter if he had been in heaven before he was born because he descended and only ascended after coming here, but in John he is talking about Ascending and Descending and at that time he had not ascended, look:

John 3:12-14 (King James Version)

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 20:16-18 (King James Version)

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; I am not yet ascended to my Father: go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Now this proves the point and just to make sure you don't misunderstand it look:

Ephesians 4:8-10 (King James Version)

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

So this shows that Jesus descended first and later ascended and this was after the statement that no one had ascended but he that descended.

Tell me who was the Father or Mother of Elijah?

Elijah had to come before the Messiah i.e. Descension

Elijah was taken up to Heaven i.e. Ascension

Hello,

I have looked into this more carefully and even if we accept your idea; which I do not reject without further study, but Jesus is actually saying that no one has ascended into heaven that has come from heaven. Is that true? Yes. That is different than Jesus just saying no one has ascended to heaven. Both qualifiers are in His statement in John 3:13; therefore both Enoch and Elijah could have ascended as well because they did not come from heaven. Therefore, i believe we can say that it is possible if not probable that the other two did forgo physical death.