Judgement

[Catholic Crusader]

Who believes you are judged immediately upon death (and why)?
Who believes you are not judged until the Final Judgment (and why)?

For the record, I believe you are judged immediately upon death, as this quote explains:

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soulâ€â€a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven... ...or immediate and everlasting damnation.

But I also believe there is a Last Judgement:

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust," will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment." Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:


All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Fatherâ€â€but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."


1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvellous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.


1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation." It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the "blessed hope" of the Lord's return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all who have believed."

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... 3art12.htm

Your thoughts?

 

[Vic C.]

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel doesn't suggest any sort of timeline for these two "judgments", but I believe they can be found here:

• For the righteous in Christ:

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

• The judgment for these individuals is here:

1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Cor 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

• The judgment for the unrighteous is fairly simple:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This may be broadstroking the issue, but all beliefs concerning judgment should be compared to the above. These verses speak of general, group gatherings and judgments. An individual judgment suggests each person is judged twice. :-?

 

[Abimael]

Going of scripture there seems to be both an instant judgment upon death and also a final judgment of everyone together at some point in time.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Ok here is my understanding.

When we die we sleep, but we have already been judged. We are now bound for the first resurrection or the second.

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

We will later be judged and rewarded for our works. I believe this takes place immediately before the thousand year reign. There is also a remnant of evil that are alive atthis time and recieve their first judgment.

And as Vic said the judgment of the unrighteous is simple. Their second judgement is more like a sentencing. No rewards here.

So I do agree that we are all judged twice.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Ok here is my understanding. When we die we sleep, but we have already been judged. We are now bound for the first resurrection or the second.

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

We will later be judged and rewarded for our works. I believe this takes place immediately before the thousand year reign. There is also a remnant of evil that are alive atthis time and recieve their first judgment. And as Vic said the judgment of the unrighteous is simple. Their second judgement is more like a sentencing. No rewards here. So I do agree that we are all judged twice.

I have always found this "sleep" belief fascinating. From a theological standpoint, I don't see how it is possible for pure spirit to "sleep". Sleep is an activity of beings in the material realm. But when we die, we are pure spirit - how can spirit sleep? I do not think spirits sleep.

 

[Vic C.]

This may prove to be an interesting discussion.

 

[Abimael]

Sleep is an action of the body not the soul, the soul never sleeps.

 

[Imagican]

And WHO is to say that this 'sleep' is NOT filled with 'dreams', (or NIGHTMARES). In this case there would be 'sleep' of the Body but the 'spirit' may well be aware of it's PAST actions. And perhaps 'the eternal torment' that is reserved for those unrepentant is THIS NIGHTMARE that would SEEM to go on FOREVER to those 'caught in it'. For JUST A DAY with 'terrible fear and misery' could SEEM an eternity IF you didn't KNOW anything about PHYSICAL 'time'. Not KNOWING if and WHEN the 'time was going to BE UP' would make EVERY MOMENT an ETERNITY of 'hell'.

And for the rest, perhaps their dreams are of God, His Son and those 'brothers and sisters' that they LOVED in their physical life.

MEC

 

[Rick W]

"may well be"
"And perhaps"
"would SEEM"
"could SEEM"

All those conjectures to get to:

"would make"

Continuing to support the if's:

"perhaps their dreams"

If this and if that and if this too and if that too... then... this.
Sounds pretty hypothetical to me at best.

 

[Vic C.]

In this case there would be 'sleep' of the Body but the 'spirit' may well be aware of it's PAST actions

Here is something that is not so hypothetical:

The spirit of Man goes back to God, who gave it.

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

However, the topic is judgment, not body, soul and spirit.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

However, the topic is judgment, not body, soul and spirit.

Thanks. I forgot what my own thread was about. LOL :

This subject is important to me because it ties in with other subjects that are often fiery debate subjects. So I want to nail this fundamental one down first.

 

[Vic C.]

[quote="vic C.":2359d]However, the topic is judgment, not body, soul and spirit.

Thanks. I forgot what my own thread was about. LOL :

This subject is important to me because it ties in with other subjects that are often fiery debate subjects. So I want to nail this fundamental one down first.[/quote:2359d]
:


It was already nailed at the Cross. ;-)

 

[Imagican]

"may well be"
"And perhaps"
"would SEEM"
"could SEEM"

All those conjectures to get to:

"would make"

Continuing to support the if's:

"perhaps their dreams"

If this and if that and if this too and if that too... then... this.
Sounds pretty hypothetical to me at best.

Absolutely,

But Potluck, Do you KNOW what happens when a person DIES? We have LITTLE description of WHAT this 'sleep' entails' And IF it IS 'sleep', then we OFTEN 'dream' when we sleep. Seems kind of 'final' if we simply 'shut down' at the time of physical death. Only to be rewoken a THOUSAND or more years later. Seems MUCH more likely that there IS some 'sort' of awareness that will be experienced. And we HAVEN'T been offered that there WON'T. Just that we WILL SLEEP.

So ANYTHING offered 'other than' what is STATED in The Word is PURELY speculative. And for the sake of a conversation in which we DON'T know ALL the answers, I used the 'words' that I did so that it would NOT be taken as DEFINITIVE KNOWLEDGE.

But, to let you in on a 'little secret', it IS more than mere speculation. And this I HAVE from what I 'believe' to be a 'higher source'.

Have you EVER experienced DEATH? Have YOU 'ever' been certified DEAD and 'come back'? Perhaps these experiences are NOTHING other than hallucinations. But PERHAPS they are 'something MORE'. But having had the experience MORE than once, I do believe that it was revealed that HELL is PARTIALLY the 'hopelessness' of the NIGHTMARES that one WILL experience durring this 'sleep'. Or perhaps their dreams WON'T be 'nightmares' but stuff of a 'pleasant' nature.

But you tell me; What IF you were asleep and UNABLE to 'wake'. And durring this 'sleep' you were tormented EVERY second with EVERY negative 'feeling' that you had EVER experienced. And on top of this you had NO perception of 'time'. A day WOULD certainly SEEM like an ETERNITY. Now imagine this EXPERIENCE lasting for a THOUSAND years or MORE.

And 'perhaps' when that thousand years or more is UP, then the 'separation' takes place. Those that are judged UNWORTHY of 'life' are simply CUT OFF from it? Think about it.........Heck, PRAY upon it. ASK and ye SHALL 'receive'. I have offered the 'idea', now SEE if it can be discerned through scripture or 'The Spirit'.

So, perhaps what I offer IS mere 'speculation'. Perhaps it IS simply 'idle talk'. But I CAN offer this: it is NOT as RANDOM as you may 'think'.

MEC

 

[GraceBwithU]

I have always found this "sleep" belief fascinating. From a theological standpoint, I don't see how it is possible for pure spirit to "sleep". Sleep is an activity of beings in the material realm. But when we die, we are pure spirit - how can spirit sleep? I do not think spirits sleep.

You are 100% wrong here. First of all the spirit returns to where it came, do not confuse the spirit with the soul. Every living thing, (man, dogs, cats, etc) has a spirit given from God to live. Many scriptures speak of the sleep in shoal after death. It is a fact not theory. It is for sure biblical...and if you have ever been knocked unconscious from something like an automobile accident, you will fully understand what this sleep is. This sleep will be so complete and deep that as for as your soul’s consciousness is concerned, no time has pasted from the moment you die until you are resurrected.

Example; I was in an auto accident in the 1990’s. I remember looking out my window and seeing the car hitting me. The very next thing I remembered is a paramedic stooped over me trying to revive me. The nearest hospital was over 30 minutes away. I was already on the stretcher strapped to it to avoid back and neck injuries. The helicopter was on the way. At least an hour had pasted. But it was the same instant as the accident to my soul.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that the dimension of time has nothing to do with God? Time is a worldly dimension. If we are saved, we sleep in Jesus. It is not a theory.

 

[Imagican]

Ah Grace, you speak wise words. For I have not only been knocked unconcious but pronounced DEAD on two separate occasions. And I can STILL vividly remember BOTH instances. There was STILL an awareness. And what 'I' experienced was NOT The 'all happy and bright lights ushering ME into some WARM and fuzzy place'. The experience that I had BOTH times, (I was living a life of SEROUS sin at the time), REEKED of a 'finality' that was TERRIFYING. It was like 'without actually HEARING words' I was TOLD mentally that I had 'screwed up' and wouldn't get 'another chance' to ALTER what had already been done.

Perhaps if one IS saved then they DO simply 'sleep'. But let me offer a 'glimpse' of the POSSIBLE state of one that is NOT 'saved'.............

It seemed to me upon recovering that I had experienced a 'glimpse' of WHAT 'hell' truly IS. I can't explain the 'why' of it other than to say that it most certainly had a 'major effect' on my Spirituality. I felt BOTH times as if I were 'being told', (like I said before, it was NOT a literal audible voice, MORE like a 'feeling' that was PLACED inside my mind and heart), THIS is WHAT you have to look forward to if your life continues down this path. Needless to say, the 'feeling' that I was LEFT with was MUCH more terrifying than the incident that caused it. And the TOTAL time involved was ONLY a matter of minutes. But IN THESE MINUTES were an ETERNITY of 'feeling', ALL NEGATIVE.

To this day I can sometimes STILL recall EXACTLY what that 'feeling' was. And folks, it may well have been a hallucination of sorts. Can't deny that at all. But it was certainly bizaar that I would have such a 'religious type' experience when at the time I was ANYTHING 'but' into The Word or ANYTHING else other than my OWN pleasure. If ANYTHING, at the time, you could have accused me of being 'anti-God' rather than one that accepted even a HINT of a 'supreme being'.

Pretty deep stuff. I am NOT a doctor nor am I a psychologist. know little about medicine or the study of the mind. But I can tell you that what I experienced was AS REAL as ANYTHING that has EVER happened in my 'concious life'. WAY beyond what I have EVER experienced in a 'dream'. It was MORE real than many ACTUAL waking experiences have been.

If NOT for these two experiences I could have NEVER imagined something so terrifying. There is not even adequate words to express it now. It was the WORST experience I have EVER experienced either awake or asleep. And there was NO PAIN unless you would consider it POSSIBLE for the SOUL to experience such a 'thing'. It went BEYOND any 'pain' that I have ever experienced. It was MUCH MUCH DEEPER in sensation and utterly, (I know, like I said, it's difficult to put it into words), OVERWHELMING. TOTAL HOPELESSNESS and HELPLESSNESS UNTIL it was OVER. Like being in a 'cage' or a 'box' or something. NO 'lights' JUST the OPPOSITE in fact. Like being completely in a VOID, no PHYSICAL sensation AT ALL. But DEEP inside, like IN MY HEART and my MIND being TRAPPED in an UNSPEAKABLE place filled with EVERYTHING that I dreaded the MOST. One 'bad' feeling to the next at 'light speed'. But NOT letting up for a millisecond until it was OVER.

So, perhaps my wording was wrong. Perhaps it was 'the soul' that I should have emphasized. But whatever happened on those occasions, they were the TWO most terrifying experiences of MY LIFE. And I'm NOT talking about what led UP to the trama, I'm talking about what transpired DURRING the time that I was 'gone'. For I have little memory of the actual instance other than what transpired DURRING the 'time' that I was considered DEAD.

What I was LEFT with was the mental IMPRESSION that I was being given a 'second chance' of sorts. That IF i didn't CHANCE my behavior, I had been GIVEN a 'glance' of WHAT to expect in the future. And the scarriest part was the FEELING of 'finality' involved with this original IMPRESSION. That I WOULD be AWARE IF I DIED OF EXACTLY HOW I had LIVED my life and TOTALLY aware that there was NOTHING that I could DO to 'change' it. STUCK for an 'eternity' with EVERYTHING that I was SUPPOSE to feel when I was LIVING my life WITHOUT God but HADN'T.

So, take it for what it's worth. My belief is that we ARE aware upon 'death'. Whether this LASTS I cannot say, I didn't STAY DEAD. But I CAN say that the couple of minutes that i was considered DEAD revealed an AMOUNT of information that would take me hours to completely define. And there was NO indication that it was 'about' to END. The indication was that that 'feeling', the feeling of finality, the feeling of UTTER hopelessness, the feeling of TERROR, the FEAR, the UTTER desperation, would last INDEFINITELY. Right up to the moment that I regained conciousness.

Thank you for what you have offered Grace. I have RARELY spoken of these events even to others that remember them well. And I have ONLY spoken these actual words to a 'couple of people' in twenty some odd years. One of them earlier tonight. I have always felt that this experience was WAY too 'personal' and that any that I may TELL would possibly think it sounded NUTTY.

Oh well. Take it for what it's worth folks. It WAS a 'deciding factor' in my life and most CERTAINLY 'turning points' in WHO I am today. If NOT for these instances, who knows where I would BE today.

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

What does it matter when we are judged? It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment.

 

[Rick W]

What does it matter when we are judged? It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment.

I quite agree.
I will say though the "who" may very well be more important then the "when". Just after I was saved I found out that it's not God the Father that does the judging, but Christ. All those years beforehand I was under the absolutely solid belief that if there was a God then He did the judging. It was quite a shock for me to find out that wasn't so.

I believe we will indeed be judged by our works. If we are one with Christ then it's His works that are judged. We gave our life to Christ, we surrendered to Him. Our life is not our own but His. Therefore the works we do we cannot take credit for. For if we expect that to be so then we really haven't given anything to Christ much less our lives.
We are told we will be clothed in white and by the Holy Spirit we are made a new creation. When told we will be judged by the works we do that is absolutely true. Those who don't believe Christ will be judged by their works and those that do believe will be judged by the works He does through us.
Works are profitable yes, profitable to others, not us, not to self. Fort if by self then not by Christ. And those works are profitable to the glorification of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.
The Word of God focuses on others and God as seen in the 10 commandments. There's nothing in the Law to inflate the ego, it's all for others. Same thing with Christ's ministry, all for the other guy. Salvation for you, for self? Of course but then that salvation has a purpose, to serve others, to spread the Gospel and to Glorify God. Again, the purpose overshadows the event. And that purpose is not our own, nor are the works.
Were we not judged quilty already? Was our condemnation not our fate from birth? And will our works not be judged? I'd rather His works done through me be judged, for which I can take no credit, instead of the works I'd done before I became one with Him. Are not the works of the slave the works of the master? Isn't this why Paul said He was a bondslave to Christ? For the works Paul did he made clear they were not his own, but Christ's.
Therefore we should stand confident in Him and with a clear conscience in the day of judgment knowing we will not be judged by our own works but by the works through the life given to Christ.
Faith without works is dead. For I may have a belief but if His works are not done then He may not be in me in the first place.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I have always found this "sleep" belief fascinating. From a theological standpoint, I don't see how it is possible for pure spirit to "sleep". Sleep is an activity of beings in the material realm. But when we die, we are pure spirit - how can spirit sleep? I do not think spirits sleep.

You are 100% wrong here. First of all the spirit returns to where it came, do not confuse the spirit with the soul. Every living thing, (man, dogs, cats, etc) has a spirit given from God to live....

Sorry, but it is YOU who are wrong. Youre theology is totally incorrect. First of all, animals do not have spirits (LOL). They have SOULS. The soul is the animating force of the body. (The Latin word "anima" translates to "soul": Hence the word "animation".) But man alone has a "spiritual" soul.

Your second mistake is that you are intoducing a duality into mans spirit and soul. Sometimes it SEEMS the soul is distinguished from the spirit, like when St. Paul prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly," with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming. But this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. "Spirit" here signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God. The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

You are right when you say the spirit returns to God. But that merely renforces my point: How can it sleep? It can not.

Also, it is true that God is outside of time. But angels and spirits do experience the passage of time in a certain way, becasue what is time? It is a measure of change. God is outside of time because He does not change.

Sleep is an action of the body not the soul, the soul never sleeps.

See?

 

[GraceBwithU]

Sleep is an action of the body not the soul, the soul never sleeps.

You have been reading to many apocrypha books... You will quote from anything to prove your point...I guess you will be adding a book Adimael to your bible now. Only joking

You probably have the soul and spirit definition reversed…but it does not change anything. The soul never dies. The spirit returns to God. The body returns to dust. The soul sleeps in shoal until resurrection.

Rev 6:9
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
KJV

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV

 

[GraceBwithU]

Sleep is an action of the body not the soul, the soul never sleeps.

The Bible never says the soul doesn't sleep. In fact it says many times just the opposite. The soul never DIES.
The sleep that the bible talks about is not the same type of sleep that you are speaking of here.

Matt 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

John 11:11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
KJV

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
KJV

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV

It is more related to total unconsciousness than sleep of the body. The soul is totally unaware of the passage of time. The dimension of time that we humans are bound to is one thing that sometimes hinders our understanding of God.