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Judgment for foresight to avoid hindsight.

Danus

Member
Foresight, is the ability to predict, or the action of predicting, what will happen or be needed in the future.

Hindsight, is the understanding of a situation or event only after it has happened or developed.

As a parent I try to use the hindsight I've collected in my life, with the wisdom God gives me, to administer foresight in the decisions I make concerning my kids; what's allowed, where they can go, what they can do or have and with whom.

Recently I had to pull the Godly father in charge card out for what I was sure would be an unpopular judgment decision concerning my oldest daughter and ability to spend the night with an old friend. I was a little surprised when I got no push back from my wife or daughter.

My wife and I have a long time friendly acquaintanceship with another couple. I say friendly acquaintanceship, because the friendship is really between my wife and the wife of the other couple, everyone else is sort of friends by proxy, but friends all the same.

Our wives where pregnant at about the same time, and with girls. We have photos from years ago of these beaming women sanding back to back, proudly showing the progress of their first daughters known to us through the magic of ultrasound.

They had baby showers together, built scarp books together, collaborated on decorating baby rooms for girls, and planed for the vicarious friendship these two girls would share, and have; Up until now.

The fact is these two families have been and are on separate spiritual paths and it's a path clearly illustrative of the difference between marriage and family with God in charge vs a marriage and family left to it's own self.

When times have been tough for them, we've seen them start to unravel. Bankruptcy, depression, threats of divorce, and acting out.

When times have been tough for us, they've seen us pull together. Because of this, they often seek our direction and advice. We've told them about God, invited them to church, offered Godly financial, marriage, or parenting advice. They've always been receptive, but they never listen. They never listen because the world always seems to get better for them, and the trouble seems to pass for a time. They calm down and go right back to living in the same condition, never preparing for the next round of trouble. Out of sight, out of mind.

They have a 14 year old son and an 11 year old daughter, same age as my oldest daughter. Our girls have sort of grown up together as friends. My daughter was born in October 2000, two months after their daughter was born. Because of this, our daughter is in the 5th grade and theirs in the 6th. The girls spend the night together and text each other from time to time, but their friendship is not natural. They are not the "best of friends', just best agreement friends.

It's spring break right now. We hosted a sleep over at our house the other day and they hosted a sleep over the next day, which was concluded last night. My wife and daughter arrived home after stopping by to pick up some take out for our Friday night dinner. As we sat down to eat I noticed my daughter had picked up some of her little friends mannerisms. The tone, attitude, even the way her little friend speaks it was all there. "did you bring the right girl home?"; I jokingly asked my wife. "I think so."; She bantered back.

"So what did you and Natalie do? Did you have fun." insert rolled eyes, and ..."Dad? really?" :sad.... Now I'm a bit of a joker, a Smart $$$ :) I like to push buttons, so I asked; "What's that on your face? Where you guys practicing a clown routine? You're not thinking about running away and joining the circus are you" ...:) (Good one hu? )

It was at that point that I knew from her response that I had a bigger problem on my hands. She says, "Daddy! Really? It's MAKE UP! OK? God!, your so annoying some times!"...now this is not my girl. This is her friend clearly.

I could see the smoke come out of my wife ears. She was going to kill her. "YOU LISTEN TO ME YOUNG LADY......! I placed my hand up to halt the blow up and it actually worked. My wife stopped. I just kept the conversation going; "Oh. OK, because you look like a clown with that on your face and I just thought maybe you guys where thinking about clown school or something. I'd hate for that to be the path you take. You're too pretty to hide your face behind clown make up. What's makeup for anyway? Why do people think they can do a better job than God when it come to beauty?" At this point my 8 year old is getting quite a kick out of me, but respectfully holing her chubby little hand over her grinning mouth to suppress her giggles.

All of this continued on a bit. My daughter getting more quiet as she listens to my gentle wit of admonishment, regarding her behavior and new found persona. Slowly it all dissolved away and our daughter started to come back.

That night my wife and I talked about it. I said to her that this is the last time our daughter will spend the night with Natalie. It's not just the make up and the attitude she cops around her. It's the whole influence. They don't have a spiritual grip on their kids. She is a weak woman, wife and mother and he's not a strong or Godly man. Nice, but nice doesn't cut it. That's the charge I laid out and I thought I'd get some push back from my wife, but instead she just said; "Yes I think you're right."

Then I said; "Besides, they have a teen age son (14) that I'm not very impressed with. Nathan does not speak much these days and he seems tired all the time. What's with that?"

My wife says; "Yeah Sheila says he's been playing games all the time. He's always locked in his room on the computer playing games." .......:o WHAT? Locked in his room playing games on line in his room locked? Are you kidding me? He's looking at porn! She looks at me and says; "you really think so?" :confused: Kid just got his own computer last Christmas and he rarely emerges from his room these days.

In hindsight there have been enough little clues to end this made up friendship about a year ago, but in foresight it ends now. The new rule is, she is aloud to have her friend stay at our house, but she is not aloud to spend the night there. My wife looked at me and agreed.

Sometimes you can just smell trouble. Many times we are told that we should not judge others. Even the secular world has picked up on that, but people misunderstand what this really means.

What it means is that we are not to judge others hypocritically. We are to judge. We are to judge, and with God given discernment. In the case of raising Kids, being a good parent, we can't afford hindsight. We need to pray for foresight.
 
I couldnt agree more,well said.

Too many times we hear the "dont judge" card thrown on the table these days,and its come to the point of some being afraid to point out whats obviously wrong and/or unacceptable.It just boils down to a smokescreen that people use to hide what theyre doing and hope noone notices.

We do need to judge and in fact the world encourages us to,with the only exception being morality.Suddenly there is no concrete right or wrong,everything is open to interpretation,and curse the one who says otherwise.

When I happen to be in a bad area of town,its rational to judge that its likely not the best idea to approach a group of pants-sagging,gold-grill guys who are engaged in a game of dice to ask for directions.It would become wrong on my part should I choose to look at these guys as worthless individuals who will never amount to anything and conclude that they belong nowhere but prison.In reality,this could be true for some of them..but in doing so,I condemn them unfairly and would then be subject to the "dont judge" clause.

Anyway,Im glad to see how things turned out for your family and your daughter in the matter and applaud how it was handled.I wish more parents out there had the nerve to stand behind the common sense we should all have concerning such things.
 
Danus,

I agree with your premise here...as a matter of fact, we had to put our (collective) foot down with Viola regarding one of her best friends since kindergarten. We feel bad for the girl...but as long as she is involving herself with drugs and sex, nope, Viola isn't spending time alone with her. They can casually chat at school, but that's it...no Facebook "friends", no phone calls or texts, nada.

I hope you don't mind though, but I do have some observations on this exchange:

As we sat down to eat I noticed my daughter had picked up some of her little friends mannerisms. The tone, attitude, even the way her little friend speaks it was all there. "did you bring the right girl home?"; I jokingly asked my wife. "I think so."; She bantered back.

"So what did you and Natalie do? Did you have fun." insert rolled eyes, and ..."Dad? really?" :sad.... Now I'm a bit of a joker, a Smart $$$ :) I like to push buttons, so I asked; "What's that on your face? Where you guys practicing a clown routine? You're not thinking about running away and joining the circus are you" ...:) (Good one hu? )

It was at that point that I knew from her response that I had a bigger problem on my hands. She says, "Daddy! Really? It's MAKE UP! OK? God!, your so annoying some times!"...now this is not my girl. This is her friend clearly.
Several things here. First of all, at 11, I will go out on a limb and say that you are getting the first breezes of the coming storm. And the storm will indeed come. I'm not so sure that your daughter was mimicking her friend as much as she's trying out the attitude straight from Teens-R-Us. My own sweet daughter started in a little earlier, 10 instead of 11, but the eyerolls, the tone, the attitude...all the same and neither our daughters nor their friends have ever met each other, right?

Secondly, about daddy being a "bit of a joker, a Smart $$$"... So many daddies are, including my own hubby.

And for some reason, one of the main things that Dad's love to "joke" with their daughters about is the make-up.

Here's the thing...too often this "joking" can become provoking. And, isn't it interesting that the Bible specifically tells fathers to not provoke their children? I don't know what it is about dads...but God obviously does, and says, "Don't do this!"

Our daughter is now 14, so we've been in this for 4 years. (It only seems as if its been like 40 years now! :robot) So, I'm only sharing some insights from the trenches here...and also insights from the woman's perspective.

Make-up is a very touchy subject with girls. Unless your family is Mennonite or Amish, or some other kind of more fundamental Christian, your daughter is going to want to wear make-up. And, it takes a girl a long time to learn how to use make-up correctly. This is something that Viola is still learning. Some days, she does a great job...other days she looks like a pop-tart and the battle is on. The ultimate punishment is to take the make-up bag away from her...but that is only as a very last, last resort.

I know that guys and even some Christian women won't understand how humiliating it is for a young teen girl to go to school with no make-up, but it is.

If you want to avoid unnecessary eye rolls and back talk, I'd say a Dad's best bet is to compliment your daughter when she gets the make-up right...and let her mom handle it when she doesn't. Joke around her about other things, but not about this, or about her fashion sense (not saying to not have standards, just don't tease her about it) and especially never, ever, ever tease her about her "cycle".

Please Dads everywhere....just don't do this!

Not only will you be able to get along better with your daughter as she transitions from daddy's sweet little girl to TERRIFYING HORRIBLE MONSTER to lovely young woman, you most likely will get along better with your wife.

Because, I'm tellin ya...it is so dang aggravating for me to try to keep the united front with Steve necessary to maintaining good discipline with the kids, all the while I'm cringing because Steve is "joking" (read PROVOKING) Viola to anger, then gets mad at her for reacting inappropriately. GRRRR. I talk to him about this all the time, but there just seems to be something about her sitting there with a little too much mascara and her "stylish" clothes that brings out the worst in him.
 
You hit the nail on the head pretty good there Handy.

Im going through some of this with my stepdaughter right now.We have a pretty good relationship,and of course I hack on her a bit about the boy crushes and so forth.

Even though shes not mine biologically,I love her like shes my own anyway.Its nerve-wracking sometimes to see her getting all dolled up for the same kind of stupid little boys I used to be.I think most of the picking and commentary comes from amusement at watching her grow up,but some is just to alleviate my own nervousness about turning her loose at times.

We all want to see the boys grow up fast and strong,but when those little girls are coming of age we suddenly want to put it in reverse to keep em away from all the rotten little boys.There are days when I wish I could hide in her backpack with a ballbat to run a couple off.

Anyway,Im glad you offered the female perspective on things because I was able to see some of the same going on with us.
 
This is one of those threads that make ya' cry , laugh, and pray at the same time! Most of all it makes me so thankful to be the GRANDmother:toofunny
 
Well said, Handy!

Gents: another idea on how to handle the make-up issues with young daughters who are at that age for make-up: have your wives call up a Mary Kay (make-up) rep who will be more than willing to talk your daughters through face cleansing, make up (and how to apply properly) and make-up removal.

I don't sell Mary Kay, so please don't misunderstand motive here.

I went this route with my daughters when they each reached 'that age' ... they learned that red lipstick wasn't right for them, for example...and applying eye shadow with a trowel wasn't quite the way of it either. The cleansers, et al, also helped them to learn that keeping the skin clean helped to reduce the number of break-outs, which is always such a huge issue for teens. (Even if a teen only has 1 spot, it can be enough for drama queen/drama king scenes.)

Anyway...just a tidbit for consideration
 
My wife has wisely convinced me to avoid saying what I want to say every time our 13 YO emerges with too much make-up. Oh, how I hate too muck black stuff around the eyes (whatever that stuff is). It's all I can do not to make an off-handed remark in a joking or irritated way. I just pray that this is a passing phase that she will laugh on her own about one day. For now, I make it a point to comment so she can hear about how pretty someone looks when we see someone with little or no make-up.

Danus, how I feel your pain. :gah

Isn't it disconcerting when our children emerge from those younger years when we were the extent of their influence? It might start with a neighboring friend, then school, then TV, then pop-culture, and then the media. Our two oldest go to a youth night at a different church than ours on Tuesday nights, and the last few times, the message has been about seeking out "positive soul-ties" and shedding "negative soul-ties" in friends as teens. This seems true even for us, but very important for impressionable teens. Danus, I think everyone can think of family friends they have who are just like yours. The parents' values spill down to their children, and sometimes it seems the parents are Godly, but they can't or refuse to acknowledge that their kids are heading way off track.

Danus, let us vow to commit ourselves to pray even more for our children and for the wisdom to be Godly fathers.
 
Lam 2:19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy young children, that faint for spiritual hunger in the top of every street.
 
Growing up a Pentecostal PK had its share of problems, but nothing that was ever said ,done or happened hurrt so much or caused lasting pain as being mocked by my father.
 
Thanks everybody.

I appreciate the support, validation and the advice. I will consider your's especially handy. :nod

As a father of two daughters I want them to grow up strong, confident women, and the last thing I want to do is crush their spirit.

My 11 year old is standing at the thresh hold of tween-teen. I've started taking extra time with her. We discuss deeper issues little by little. She opens up to me pretty well. I think this age between 10 and say 13 are about my best opportunity to hang out with my daughter, get to know her more and she me. Not just the typical goofy father child thing, but more personal knowing the heart of a person type of thing.

I'll say this, there are things I can say to my oldest that I could not say to my youngest at the same age. Like the make-up thing. But, your point is well taken.

Hum :chin make up...... My wife thought it was kind of funny in a cute way. I think I thought it kind of trashy and it actually scared me. Maybe a lot of what I had to say came from my own fear of what it represented to me.
 
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