Jus10 want some post trib rapture scripture so I am going to give Him some

[watchman F]

Jus10 posted this on another thread. It was off topic so I am responding here.

Show me some scripture (in context) that lines up with a post trib rapture. You can give your opinion all you want but without scripture to back it up that's all it is.

Really it is easy as 1+2=3 simple arithmatic. If the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and the rapture is at the 2nd coming then that equals a posttrib rapture. My next post is an excerpt of a book I wrote on this subject, that proves the previous.

 

[watchman F]

Chapter 3
Scripture that prove the second coming is after the tribulation

You can actually prove that the rapture is after the tribulation by proving two other things. #1 that the second coming is after the tribulation, #2 that the rapture is at, and or on the same day as the second coming. If you can show that the second coming is after the tribulation and that the rapture is at the second coming, then that in itself proves that the rapture is indeed post tribulational. In this chapter I will address the first point, that the second coming is after the tribulation. I will show that the rapture is at the second coming in chapter four. The main text I will use to show that the second coming is after the tribulation is one I have already quoted in this book, Matthew 24:29-31. I will also use it's sister scripture Mark 13:24-27.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.
Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that this is the Jewish elect not the church, but we have already shown the deception behind this teaching. Others argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows
Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now in the next chapter I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

 

[watchman F]

Chapter 4
Scriptures that show that the resurrection of the just and the catching away or rapture of the living saints, is at the post trib 2nd coming

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Here is one of our two foundational scriptures that I eluded to earlier. There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.
Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop the book right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.




1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrection at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.




2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth and then the anti christ will be revealed and then the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.




1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming.



I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming. Yet believe it or not there is more.

 

[watchman F]

As my last post stated there is even more proof for a post trib rapture, but I will wait for a response to post more.

 

[freeway]

I'll wait and let Jus10 answer first, before I jump in here.....;) tic tic tic

 

[Michae1]

... If the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and the rapture is at the 2nd coming then that equals a posttrib rapture. ...

Well you got the '2nd coming after the Tribulation' part right, but the rapture does not come at the 2nd coming. Those are two totally different events that people sometimes get confused.

 

[Theofilus]

Well you got the '2nd coming after the Tribulation' part right, but the rapture does not come at the 2nd coming. Those are two totally different events that people sometimes get confused.

Watchman F provided scripture verses to support his vies. Can you do the same, or are you going to let it suffice to simply say that he's wrong?

 

[smaller]

First comes the GREAT TRIBULATION. The infamous time of 'Jacobs trouble.'

Jacob is both literal and figurative on many counts, which is a very long study in itself, but, yes, JACOB in figurative or allegorical fashions WILL be 'here' during the GREAT TRIBULATION.

At the conclusion of the GREAT TRIBULATION the 'church' will be 'raptured away.' This is the classic 'one will be taken' and the other 'left behind.'

Those LEFT BEHIND will be left to face THE WRATH OF GOD...which is AFTER the Great Tribulation.

Great Tribulation<>RAPTURE<>DAY OF WRATH on the remainders

The GREAT TRIBULATION time is a TIME of FINAL SEPARATIONS between the anti-Christ spirits and those on earth in whom the Spirit of God IS or IS NOT. This is the TESTING TIME, the TRIAL that comes upon the WHOLE EARTH. I cannot say what duration of TIME that consists of as it remains cloaked in allegories. It may very well be the 3 1/2 year period finishing the timeline WEEK of the 70th of the Ministry of Jesus 3 1/2 years, slightly more, slightly less. The measuring stick on these days is difficult. I do know that at the ENDING of this TIME comes FINAL WRATH, which is NOT the same as the Great Tribulation.

And the church, those who are IN, are taken OUT...and the remainder left to suffer the DIRE ILLS that the CHURCH will not suffer, as that is going to be the FINISHING OFF of these matters of EVIL here on earth.

We also know that all believers are called into tribulations during this present life. This is automatic conveyance with the Gospel for believers for MANY reasons, not in the topic of this thread, but 'explainable' and NOT from other people, but FROM GOD. God does CHASTISE those whom He Loves. If we do not suffer the tribulation of CHASTISEMENT, then we are not SONS of God.

The Church then has suffered 'tribulations' from the beginning. I tend to see the GREAT TRIBULATION as an escalation of those CHASTISEMENTS when this happens:

Matthew 10:26
Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

The 'early church' walked into these measures for a very brief period of time, which then largely evaporated and was taken over by 'the worldly' fashion churches of today in a gradual DEFEAT and DIVISION as the powers of EVIL sifted into her and took control. This is easily observable today and the result of being OVERCOME.

An example of the POWERS of the early churches was first demonstrated by Peter with Ananias and Sophira, whom THE HOLY GHOST struck DEAD. This caused GREAT FEAR amongst the early adherents, and they gradually WITHDREW in FEAR. Over time believers came to DIVIDE and KILL each others and persecute EACH OTHERS in their various sects and powers. THIS WAS NOT THE CHURCH. It was the DEFEATED CHURCHes in action.

Before the end of the life of John, the Apostle, ALL of the churches had the works of SATAN addressed by JESUS therein.

The time of GREAT TRIBULATION will SETTLE these matters for THE CHURCH"es." That 'working' of SATAN and SINNERS will be DIVIDED OUT and REVEALED....and SEPARATED...OUT. The 'man of sin' and 'where he currently sits' will BE SEEN, and will NO LONGER be denied, and his role as the INTERNAL USURPER OF HEARTS will be shown CLEARLY and OPENLY.

This will HAPPEN in the CHURCHES and they will TURN into THEE GENUINE ONE CHURCH of the LIVING GOD amongst us ALL.

The 'early churches' UTTERLY FAILED this mission and were thusly DEFEATED. In many ways they, the 'early church' of the FIRST little raindrops from Above, were the NATURAL and IGNORANT churches. The received A LITTLE RAIN and it fell on DRY and PARCHED GROUND. To be followed by THE SPIRITUAL or LAST Church, undivided and AS ONE.

This can only COME by the POWER OF GOD, and not BY MAN in ALL of his configurations, because SUCH MEN have not yet RECEIVED their torrent from ABOVE. This TORRENT is shown by Jesus as IN THE DAYS OF NOAH...The SPIRITUAL or LATTER RAIN is one that COMES FROM ABOVE. The first rain of Noah POINTS exactly to this matter as NOAH was SPARED and ALL EVIL HABITATIONS were DESTROYED from the face of the earth.

That next SPIRITUAL RAIN or REIGN will come from Above INTO the ARK of the LAST CHURCH. It will be like NOTHING else before it, which are TYPOLOGIES.

It will both CLEANSE and DESTROY and it will START right there in your own back yard, that being YOUR BODY.

Judgement STARTS AT THE TEMPLE!

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I could make MANY correlations to fallen Israel and the fallen Church. One need only glance at the divisions and strifes IN THE CHURCHes today to SEE that the VICTOR is SATAN and there he currently sits, GLOATING and BASKING and BLOWING SMOKE to HIGH HEAVEN, in his CAPTIVES. And his captives are MORE BLIND today than the FALLEN of ISRAEL.

enjoy!

s

 

[watchman F]

Originally Posted by Michae1
Well you got the '2nd coming after the Tribulation' part right, but the rapture does not come at the 2nd coming. Those are two totally different events that people sometimes get confused.

Watchman F provided scripture verses to support his vies. Can you do the same, or are you going to let it suffice to simply say that he's wrong?

You stole the words right out of my mouth Theo. Scripture plainly states that the resurrection of the just, and catching away of the saints are at His coming. Why would you, Michae1 say otherwise?

 

[Thranduil]

You've done an excellent job of providing the scripture and the 1+2=3 explanation Watchman F.

I still don't get it when others see it otherwise. How can the resurrection come AFTER the rapture when Paul clearly states the direct opposite. I scratch my head.

Of course it's perfectly understandable when you consider human nature is to avoid the truth, and point the finger elsewhere so it's someone else's fault. To escape blame and duty. To take the easy way out, etc, etc, etc.

Whatever, let'em find out the hard way. Let them find they've been left behind. Let them poo poo and boo hoo, poor me poor me. Let them deal with it; because that's what they're gonna have to do.

Watchman; do you look forward to the work we have to do at that time? To lift them back up in the faith? To reassure them and and be our brothers keeper? I praise God for our opportunity to be prepared to do just that in ADVANCE.

The Great Commission! All praise God for our duty. Love you bro!

 

[Theofilus]

Very many Christians today believe in a pre- or mid-tribulation rapture. Many of those same Christians believe that people go directly to Heaven or Hell as soon as they die. Put those two beliefs together, and this is what you get.

A born-again Christian dies. He stands before God who ushers him into His kingdom, where he stays until the rapture. At the rapture, he is sent back to earth to be reunited with his physical body and rises from the grave. He then goes before God, along with all the other's who have died in Christ, as well as those living at the time of the rapture who joined them in the air. God then tells him again "Well done thou good and faithful servant. Enter ye into My Kingdom." He stays there for 7 years (or 3 1/2 if you believe in a mid-trib rapture). Then he is sent back to earth to be re-reunited with his body and he rises from the grave again in the "first resurrection". Then he goes back to Heaven and is told for the third time "Enter into My Kingdom".

Can anyone here who believes that people go to heaven as soon as they die and in a pre- or mid-trib rapture please explain to me how you get your head around all that?

Btw, if you don't believe we go to heaven immediately upon our death, you still have people going to Heaven twice and being resurrected twice if you believe in a pre- or mid-trib rapture.

 

[smaller]

Very many Christians today believe in a pre- or mid-tribulation rapture. Many of those same Christians believe that people go directly to Heaven or Hell as soon as they die. Put those two beliefs together, and this is what you get.

A born-again Christian dies. He stands before God who ushers him into His kingdom, where he stays until the rapture. At the rapture, he is sent back to earth to be reunited with his physical body and rises from the grave. He then goes before God, along with all the other's who have died in Christ, as well as those living at the time of the rapture who joined them in the air. God then tells him again "Well done thou good and faithful servant. Enter ye into My Kingdom." He stays there for 7 years (or 3 1/2 if you believe in a mid-trib rapture). Then he is sent back to earth to be re-reunited with his body and he rises from the grave again in the "first resurrection". Then he goes back to Heaven and is told for the third time "Enter into My Kingdom".

Can anyone here who believes that people go to heaven as soon as they die and in a pre- or mid-trib rapture please explain to me how you get your head around all that?

Btw, if you don't believe we go to heaven immediately upon our death, you still have people going to Heaven twice and being resurrected twice if you believe in a pre- or mid-trib rapture.

There is no misunderstanding of the RIDERS who come with Jesus:

Jude 1:

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rev. 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Eliminate this statement from your observation:

"A born-again Christian dies. He stands before God who ushers him into His kingdom, where he stays until the rapture. At the rapture, he is sent back to earth to be reunited with his physical body and rises from the grave."

Men receive their NEW LIGHT BODIES when they depart here. There is no waiting. Moses and Elijah showed THEIR NEW BODIES in The Transfiguration.

To be absent from our mortal body is to be present with The Lord in HEAVEN. To do that one must be 'appropriately clothed,' vs. 14 above.

I lean to post trib in any case per my previous post. It is normal tribulation for ALL believers prior to THE GREAT TRIBULATION. Saints who go through the GREAT TRIBULATION will be 'equipped' to handle it.

enjoy!

s

 

[freeway]

Chapter 3
Scripture that prove the second coming is after the tribulation

You can actually prove that the rapture is after the tribulation by proving two other things. #1 that the second coming is after the tribulation, #2 that the rapture is at, and or on the same day as the second coming. If you can show that the second coming is after the tribulation and that the rapture is at the second coming, then that in itself proves that the rapture is indeed post tribulational. In this chapter I will address the first point, that the second coming is after the tribulation. I will show that the rapture is at the second coming in chapter four. The main text I will use to show that the second coming is after the tribulation is one I have already quoted in this book, Matthew 24:29-31. I will also use it's sister scripture Mark 13:24-27.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.
Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that this is the Jewish elect not the church, but we have already shown the deception behind this teaching. Others argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows
Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now in the next chapter I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

Alot here to answer,, but will...promise

 

[freeway]

Chapter 4
Scriptures that show that the resurrection of the just and the catching away or rapture of the living saints, is at the post trib 2nd coming

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Here is one of our two foundational scriptures that I eluded to earlier. There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.
Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop the book right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.




1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrection at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.




2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth and then the anti christ will be revealed and then the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.




1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming.



I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming. Yet believe it or not there is more.

again alot here... coming soon..

 

[watchman F]

I see a copy and paste job, from some generic pretrib website on the way.

 

[smaller]

The 'facts' of these matters have already been cited in this thread for a POST TRIB rapture. These were not highlighted or pointed out, so again are JESUS' WORDS showing 'us' these matters:

Mark 13:

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The ELECT are obviously STILL here until AFTER THAT TRIBULATION.

The ELECT are also IN HEAVEN....

After the TRIBULATION, the GREAT TRIBULATION all...of...the...ELECT who have EVER existed will be GATHERED TOGETHER who have EVER LIVED and we shall then EVER be with OUR LORD and Saviour.

The GREAT TRIBULATION is that FINAL SEPARATION here on earth between the SHEEP and the GOATS.

Currently SHEEP and GOATS are MIXED together as in 'everyone' has in fact GOAT WORKS. No, you are NOT a GOAT, but you do CARRY a GOAT as demonstrated by GOAT WORKS.

The GREAT TRIBULATION will PROPERLY DIVIDE these matters so they are CLEARLY KNOWN.

The SHEEP did not KNOW they were doing SHEEP WORKS to JESUS.

The GOATS did not KNOW they were doing GOAT WORKS to JESUS.

In all our SUFFERING HE is in the midst of us. THOSE WHO SLEEP do not SEE these facts.


35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all,

Watch.

enjoy!

s

 

[freeway]

I see a copy and paste job, from some generic pretrib website on the way.

Well you can add your comment to the list of thing you see wrong..

 

[watchman F]

Well you can add your comment to the list of thing you see wrong..

I anxiously await your correction......lol

 

[watchman F]

I anxiously await your correction......lol

Still waiting??????????????????????

 

[freeway]

1. Re: Jus10 want some post trib rapture scripture so I am going to give Him some
Chapter 3
Scripture that prove the second coming is after the tribulation


"""""all quotes are from Watchman....""""""

You can actually prove that the rapture is after the tribulation by proving two other things. #1 that the second coming is after the tribulation, #2 that the rapture is at, and or on the same day as the second coming. If you can show that the second coming is after the tribulation and that the rapture is at the second coming, then that in itself proves that the rapture is indeed post tribulational. In this chapter I will address the first point, that the second coming is after the tribulation. I will show that the rapture is at the second coming in chapter four. The main text I will use to show that the second coming is after the tribulation is one I have already quoted in this book, Matthew 24:29-31. I will also use it's sister scripture Mark 13:24-27

.

To show that there is a rapture. Where as we have to be ready, because Jesus could come at any time and not just at the end of the tribulation. Then the whole world will witness his return not a thief in the night scenario. “Lighting flashing from east to west, the Sign of the son of Man appearing in the heavens, the whole Nation of Israel calling out for His return, Angels flying in the air proclaiming the Gospel. The Antichrist desecrates the Jewish temple and we have to only count 1260 days for his return. Israel surrounded by the armies of the world. Or we can count 2520 from the signing of a peace treaty by the Jew,s and the antichrist. There are many more signs that point to his return. But lets look at your answers for a post trib return as you have listed. Just another point to the sure sign of his coming at the end of the tribulation. The point is, Does this sound like a thief in the night. It’s like when you call for someone to come out of his house “ the jewish nation calling for Jesus to return”” and when he comes out, you are not surprised that he did…. umm


Rev. 22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.

First off, of course the second coming Jesus comes and stops Armageddon, for the sake of the elect is at the end of the tribulation. There is no argument here. But to try and say the rapture is at the same time is wrong. We do not make a u-turn. As I will show by correcting your statements to the scriptures listed below. After all we use the same scriptures, but I will not twist them into something that is not there plus use scriptures that speak of a secret coming . First Who are the elect here, could be both Israel and Gentile Christian that are saved during the tribulation, which I believe it is. One more thing here, did you know Jesus will not come back until the nation of Israel as a whole calls out to him?
First the tribulation is for the Salvation of the Jewish nation…7 yrs left for the nation of Israel to get “right” with God and his plan of salvation thur Jesus.
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(Ezekiel 20:38). “‘As I live,’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out, I shall be king over you. And I shall bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out; and I shall bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I shall enter into judgment with you face to face. As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you,’ declares the Lord GOD. ‘And I shall make you pass under the rod, and I shall bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I shall purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me’” (Ezekiel 20:33-38a).

Again we read of “the time of Jacob’s trouble” in Jeremiah 30:7. It is said to compare to the sorrows that one faces in childbirth (Jeremiah 30:6), “but he will be saved from it” (Jeremiah 30:7, 11). The remnant will be saved through this time of trouble, which is clearly the Tribulation. The Lord will chasten the nation of Israel during this time: “Only I will not destroy you completely. But I will chasten you justly, and will by no means leave you unpunished” (Jeremiah 30:11). This chastisement will result in Israel’s conversion: “The Jew’s calling out for their Messiah after realizing the antichrist is not the messiah they had hoped for” And you shall be My people, And I will be your God” (Jeremiah
30:22). Jeremiah says that these things will occur “in the latter days” (Jeremiah 30:24) many many more verses that say the tribulation is for the Salvation of the Jewish nation and yes gentiles will come to know Jesus then also, but most will die for there belief. (Ezekiel 22:17-22).( Ezekiel 22:19),- (Jeremiah 30:6),- (Jeremiah 30:7, 11) (Daniel 12:1) (Daniel 12:10) (Daniel 9:24) and there are many many more I can list. The Bible is full of scripture that tell us the trib is for the salvation of the jewish nation…