Justice

[Guest]

The only problem is that "and this not from yourselves" comes right after the word faith, not salvation. And 1 Corinthians 2:14 clearly says that the Holy Spirit is what gives us the ability to believe. So faith is absolutely not from ourselves because 2 Corinthians 4:4 tells us that unbelievers have been blinded and cannot see the light. So Ephesians is simple enough for a child to understand because children don't try to look up words to redefine like adults do.

1 Corinthians 2:14 is dealing with the "natural man" - an unbeliever. Of course the unbeliever does not understand "spiritiual things".

I would say that the Holy Spirit illuminates/convicts the unbeliever of their sin and their need for a savior (John 16:8). At this point, when the unbeliever is convicted of their sin and recognize their need of a savior, that it is now the responsibility of that unbeliever to accept the free gift of God - salvation, or to reject it.

Throughout the books of Hebrews there are warnings to those have heard, but do not believe.

 

[Heidi]

1 Corinthians 2:14 is dealing with the "natural man" - an unbeliever. Of course the unbeliever does not understand "spiritiual things".

I would say that the Holy Spirit illuminates/convicts the unbeliever of their sin and their need for a savior (John 16:8). At this point, when the unbeliever is convicted of their sin and recognize their need of a savior, that it is now the responsibility of that unbeliever to accept the free gift of God - salvation, or to reject it.

Throughout the books of Hebrews there are warnings to those have heard, but do not believe.

Sorry but the Holy Spirit isn't less powerful than man's spirit. : It isn't just a little bitty help from God, so proud humans would like to think. Jesus said; "I will keep you from harm." Now how can he do that if he isn't dictating what happens to us? :o God also tells us that he will not give us more than we can bear. Again, how can He do that if he's leaving us alone? : So again, you are contradicting scripture. ;-)

 

[Guest]

Sorry but the Holy Spirit isn't less powerful than man's spirit. : It isn't just a little bitty help from God, so proud humans would like to think. Jesus said; "I will keep you from harm." Now how can he do that if he isn't dictating what happens to us? :o God also tells us that he will not give us more than we can bear. Again, how can He do that if he's leaving us alone? : So again, you are contradicting scripture. ;-)

Heidi - who said that God was leaving us alone? Who said that the Holy Spirit doesn't guide? Who said that the Holy Spirit is less powerful?

Forgive me, but it would be helpful if you provided exact scriptural references so we can all understand what you are referring too.

Hebrews 2:2-3 says "For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penatly, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?"

Who is doing the neglecting?

When God 'hardens a heart' - He is merely allowing the heart to take the natural course that it was already deciding to go. Even though Pharoah was given many signs and wonders able to turn his heart, Pharoah refused. THerefore, God allowed his heart to continue the course it was already going.

There are those who accept the revelation of God and those that reject.

Look at Hebrews 6:1-6 - here the author of Hebrews describes those who have seen, who have tasted, who have experienced the wonders of God - and yet still reject!

I appreciate the dialogue and discussion of Scripture Heidi - but I would ask that you would humble yourself and not accuse others of not knowing, reading, or understanding the Scriptures.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - who said that God was leaving us alone? Who said that the Holy Spirit doesn't guide? Who said that the Holy Spirit is less powerful?

Forgive me, but it would be helpful if you provided exact scriptural references so we can all understand what you are referring too.

Hebrews 2:2-3 says "For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penatly, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?"

Who is doing the neglecting?

When God 'hardens a heart' - He is merely allowing the heart to take the natural course that it was already deciding to go. Even though Pharoah was given many signs and wonders able to turn his heart, Pharoah refused. THerefore, God allowed his heart to continue the course it was already going.

There are those who accept the revelation of God and those that reject.

Look at Hebrews 6:1-6 - here the author of Hebrews describes those who have seen, who have tasted, who have experienced the wonders of God - and yet still reject!

I appreciate the dialogue and discussion of Scripture Heidi - but I would ask that you would humble yourself and not accuse others of not knowing, reading, or understanding the Scriptures.

When people claim that they can resist the Holy Spirit inside them by their own free will, then they are claiming that their power is stronger than the power of the Holy Spirit, which isn't the truth.

Those who are doing the neglecting are those who are ordained to do the neglecting. God only gives us the measure of faith he accords to us and never gives us more than we can bear.

But those who fall away are those who don't have the root of the holy Spirit as jesus tells us in the parable of the sower. "Every tree not planted by my Father will be pulled up by its roots." That also describes those in Matthew 7:21-23.

No, Alone, they are doing what God already decided they would do because he is the one who prepares some for destruction and others for salvation as Romans 9:11-15 tells us. Pharoah was not a chosen one.

So you are again using human wisdom instead of spiritual wisdom for your beliefs. Human wisdom says: "I make my choices out of my own free will" as all children think even though their parents are revoking provileges, and providing conseuqeuences for their actions. It doesn't take a lot of decision-making abaility to "decide" to obey rules when we are threatened with immediate punishment for doing so. :

 

[Guest]

Heidi - would you then answer the questions I raised from Hebrews?

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - would you then answer the questions I raised from Hebrews?

I did answer them, Alone, when I said that God gives each of us the measure of faith according to what we can bear. I also said that those who commit apostasy don't have the root of the holy Spirit. So I don't want to repeat myself.

 

[Guest]

I did answer them, Alone, when I said that God gives each of us the measure of faith according to what we can bear. I also said that those who commit apostasy don't have the root of the holy Spirit. So I don't want to repeat myself.

Forgive me, but it would be helpful to post the verses that you are alluding to.

Hebrews 6 is not speaking about a 'measure of faith' - rather it speaks clearly that there are those who have been taught, who witnessed and yet still rejected.

Nothing about a 'measure of faith'.

 

[Heidi]

Forgive me, but it would be helpful to post the verses that you are alluding to.

Hebrews 6 is not speaking about a 'measure of faith' - rather it speaks clearly that there are those who have been taught, who witnessed and yet still rejected.

Nothing about a 'measure of faith'.

To answer your question, first believe Christ's words; "No one can snatch them out of my hand." and "They (my sheep) never follow a stranger."

After you have believed those words, then think about what kind of people can fall away and you will have your answer. If you still don't have an answer, then read the parable of the sower very carefully to see who produces a good crop and why. ;-)

 

[Guest]

To answer your question, first believe Christ's words; "No one can snatch them out of my hand." and "They (my sheep) never follow a stranger."

After you have believed those words, then think about what kind of people can fall away and you will have your answer. If you still don't have an answer, then read the parable of the sower very carefully to see who produces a good crop and why. ;-)

Again Heidi - it would be helpful if you posted the exact references you allude to.

In regards to the parable of the sower, I believe it gets misunderstood - remember the sower would scatter all the seeds and there would be various types of soil in one area.

 

[Heidi]

Again Heidi - it would be helpful if you posted the exact references you allude to.

In regards to the parable of the sower, I believe it gets misunderstood - remember the sower would scatter all the seeds and there would be various types of soil in one area.

In other words, what you're saying is that you don't understand the parable of the sower. ;-) Do you at least believe some of Christ's words, like: "No one can snatch them out of my hand"? It won't do any good for me to quote verses unless you believe them in the first place.

So first you must believe. Only after that can you interpret. So start with belief of that verse first and the Hebrews verses you quoted shouldn't be hard to interpret. ;-)

 

[Guest]

In other words, what you're saying is that you don't understand the parable of the sower. ;-) Do you at least believe some of Christ's words, like: "No one can snatch them out of my hand"? It won't do any good for me to quote verses unless you believe them in the first place.

So first you must believe. Only after that can you interpret. So start with belief of that verse first and the Hebrews verses you quoted shouldn't be hard to interpret. ;-)

Heidi - have you ever sowed seeds? What sower purposefully sows seeds in ground that is not fertile? However, when I go to my garden and sow seeds to grow my vegetables - there are various types of soil in my garden, and when I sow the seeds - I scatter them across my garden and the seeds land in various types of soil.

Heidi - it does no good and it not a witness of your faith and testimony when you acuse others as you do. Please do not continue to question my belief in God and in the Scriptures - while I do not believe in your private interpretation of the Scripture - that does not mean that I do not believe in the Bible!

 

[Vic C.]

Actually that's not true. The verse reads; "For it is by faith you have been saved-and this not from yourselves-it is a gift from God, not by works, so that no one can boast." So it takes effort and quibbling about words to change that into that faith comes from ourselves. :

Heidi, you need to study more and edify yourself less. If you are really interested in truth, you might have taken my advice and researched the Greek, grammatical aspect of this verse. Geesh, even an honest reading of it in English reveals what I said.

 

[cyberjosh]

When people claim that they can resist the Holy Spirit inside them by their own free will, then they are claiming that their power is stronger than the power of the Holy Spirit, which isn't the truth.

What? You think the Holy Spirit is fighting within us unbridled to take control over our will? We would lose every time and would never make a mistake because of it. Galatians tell us that the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh and that they are contrary to one another. So if the Spirit is at enmity against the flesh, and we interpret this as God himself uninhibitedly fighting against it, then how could the flesh even fight back to create enmity, and how then do we still fall into the flesh some times?

If the Holy Spirit fought unbridled against the flesh the flesh would be consumed and be destroyed completely - but this is clearly not the case: we are what can bridle the Holy Spirit's power in our lives by neglecting to use God's grace to walk in the Spirit (a result of a moment by moment choice) so as to not fulfill the lust of the flesh (Romans 8:13). We can recieve God's grace in vain (2 Corinthians 6:1), and that is when we sin.

"If you say that you have no sin you decieve yourselves". - The Apostle John


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[jgredline]

What? You think the Holy Spirit is fighting within us unbridled to take control over our will? We would lose every time and would never make a mistake because of it. Galatians tell us that the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh and that they are contrary to one another. So if the Spirit is at enmity against the flesh, and we interpret this as God himself uninhibitedly fighting against it, then how could the flesh even fight back to create enmity, and how then do we still fall into the flesh some times?

If the Holy Spirit fought unbridled against the flesh the flesh would be consumed and be destroyed completely - but this is clearly not the case: we are what can bridle the Holy Spirit's power in our lives by neglecting to use God's grace to walk in the Spirit (a result of a moment by moment choice) so as to not fulfill the lust of the flesh (Romans 8:13). We can recieve God's grace in vain (2 Corinthians 6:1), and that is when we sin.

"If you say that you have no sin you decieve yourselves". - The Apostle John


God Bless,

~Josh

Great post!!