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I wonder about when Jesus was resurrected. He ate fish to show He has a phyiscal body. Even though we are told a time will come when there will be no more death. His physical resurrected body was taken up and the angels told the disciples in acts that Jesus will return the same way; He left. Also The prophecy in Zechariah 14:4 describes a dramatic event where the Mount of Olives splits in two when the Lord's feet touch the ground. The mountain will divide from east to west, creating a great valley, with half moving north and half moving south. Plate technotices shows us that this is exactly what is going to happen. The new Jerusalem will be 1500 by 1500 by 1500 miles the size of the arab contenent with air space and mineral rights.

If you have ever heard of entanglement, we can immediately be anywhere in the universe in what they call real time. Actually everywhere in time also. If we need healing for something in our past. I do not think God heals the memory, I think He goes back in time to the event to bring about restoration and healing.

There are lots of NDE on youtube. If they are in heaven in a instant or not, they are there pretty quick. Carl Sagon wrote a book and Jodie Foster made it into a move: "Contact". She traveled to remote planets in worm holes or something like that. I have wondered about something like optical fiber. There is no time at the speed of light so for us we would be there in a instant. But it is a one way trip. There can be no return.
Please use the whole sentence of what I said as partial can be misleading. What I said in the full was 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 is used by many to say when we die we immediately go to be with the Lord in heaven, but these verses do not mean that at all.

There is much debate about what happens when Christ returns, but the important thing is being prepared to being caught up to Him in the air and ever more be with Him in the New Jerusalem for all eternity.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
 
My concern is that when Christians sin, and we all sin, we will feel we're not Saved. Christians do, in fact, sin. They even *intentionally sin* such as when we are angry and become, for a time, unforgiving and less responsive to the Holy Spirit.
Hi brother, and thanks for the reply and comments! It's good that you're pretty concerned about other believers, but God will bring everyone of them to maturity in the Lord Jesus' image, and some take longer than normal (Rom 8:29; Phl 2:13; Heb 13:21).

Their will be times when we feel empty and maybe unsaved, but I think this is merely testing by God; and not testing for pass or fail but for strengthening in Christ--by Their Holy Spirit--through them reading the it more all the time. It's my belief that intentional sins are just manifestations of immaturity, which will only be a matter time until they mature.

God's blessings to your Family, and God be blessed!!
 
There is never a time we aren’t forgiven.

If we have forgiven others we will be forgiven.

If we do not forgive others their sins the we will not be forgiven our sins.

For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15


I think that the "rapture" happens at the same time as Jesus' one return and our resurrection.

Yes sir.

All anyone needs to know to understand about the misconception in the “pre-trib” rapture “doctrine”, is the resurrection and rapture are one event, that happens at His coming; the second coming of Christ.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
 
Your close! God will use our old body (bones, etc.) and it will be changed into the new body (Rom 8:11; Phl 3:21).
I don't personally think our disintegrated elements must be used to re-fashion new bodies. Though a "resurrection" sounds like the reanimation of previous material, in this case I think it must be different. It is metaphorical to say that our "sleeping bodies" will awaken and rise up out of their graves." This cannot literally happen, meaning that such statements are intended to be metaphorical. Many elements of our disintegrated bodies go back to minerals and nutrients that can be used by plants and then ingested by other humans. Whose elements will go to what person in the Resurrection?

So, I believe the resurrection simply indicates our spirits will experience a new bodily life. We will come back from a previous bodily form and assume a brand new, and different, bodily form. Inasmuch as we will assume another bodily form we may call it a "resurrection" of sorts, because the old bodily existence is gone, even as our spirits continue to exist.
 
I don't personally think our disintegrated elements must be used to re-fashion new bodies.. Whose elements will go to what person in the Resurrection?
Like what said! In science the First Law of thermodynamics states "matter cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed from one form to another" (solid, liquid or vapor).

For example, you cannot take matter out of the universe, you can only change it to solid, liquid or vapor; and at the rapture all our dead body parts (solids, liquids and vapors) will return to our old body and then in "a twinkling of an eye . . . we shall all be changed" (1Co 15:51, 52).
 
If we have forgiven others we will be forgiven.

If we do not forgive others their sins the we will not be forgiven our sins.

For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15
Hi JBL! It's my understanding that this passage is in reference to the Law, for Christians will always forgive regardless! Thanks for the reply.
 
Like what said! In science the First Law of thermodynamics states "matter cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed from one form to another" (solid, liquid or vapor).

For example, you cannot take matter out of the universe, you can only change it to solid, liquid or vapor; and at the rapture all our dead body parts (solids, liquids and vapors) will return to our old body and then in "a twinkling of an eye . . . we shall all be changed" (1Co 15:51, 52).
My point was that the matter that makes up one person's body later can be used to make up somebody else's body. In the resurrection, which person will claim the matter that made up his former body?

I agree that matter was created and continues to exist, despite changes in its form. But different people have used the *same matter.* And that's because in changing forms, a person's decayed matter can be used by plants and eaten by other persons so that different people share the same matter at different times.

Do you understand what I'm saying? It has nothing to do with the continuing existence of matter.
 
I think that the "rapture" happens at the same time as Jesus' one return and our resurrection.
Sounds like your an all in one sort of guy. The Bible is written as if all the events blend together and become one. But clearly there is a 1000 year Kingdom Age. After a 2000 years Church age. God declares the end from the beginning but the end of an era is not the same as the beginning.
 
Hi JBL! It's my understanding that this passage is in reference to the Law, for Christians will always forgive regardless! Thanks for the reply.

Jesus was teaching His disciples, the leadership of the Church, what to teach their disciples.

The law until John the Baptist… just so you know for future reference.

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16


So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses
.” Matthew 18:31-35
 
they were very grieved
This is very common that people do not want to forgive. They are the ones that benefit the most when they forgive the people who have wronged them. So just as God forgives us, we are to forgive others. Esp when our debt was so huge and their debt is so small.
 
This is very common that people do not want to forgive. They are the ones that benefit the most when they forgive the people who have wronged them. So just as God forgives us, we are to forgive others. Esp when our debt was so huge and their debt is so small.

Amen. So true.
 
My point was that the matter that makes up one person's body later can be used to make up somebody else's body. In the resurrection, which person will claim the matter that made up his former body?

I agree that matter was created and continues to exist, despite changes in its form. But different people have used the *same matter.* And that's because in changing forms, a person's decayed matter can be used by plants and eaten by other persons so that different people share the same matter at different times.

Do you understand what I'm saying? It has nothing to do with the continuing existence of matter.
Thanks for your explanation and God bless!
 
1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.
 
Jesus was teaching His disciples, the leadership of the Church, what to teach their disciples.

The law until John the Baptist… just so you know for future reference.

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16


So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses
.” Matthew 18:31-35
I think I see what you mean. It's my understanding that the disciples, esp. the Apostles were mainly involved with things concerning the Church (as you said), no more the Law. An example is that the Lord Jesus taught law, grace and the eternal state simultaneously, because the law didn't pass "away" (Heb 10:9) until He ascended. So "love your neighbor as yourself" is law and is conditional which is "as you love yourself;" and Christ taught differently to the Christian by saying "love one another, as I have loved you," which is unconditional.
 
I don't personally think our disintegrated elements must be used to re-fashion new bodies. Though a "resurrection" sounds like the reanimation of previous material, in this case I think it must be different. It is metaphorical to say that our "sleeping bodies" will awaken and rise up out of their graves." This cannot literally happen, meaning that such statements are intended to be metaphorical. Many elements of our disintegrated bodies go back to minerals and nutrients that can be used by plants and then ingested by other humans. Whose elements will go to what person in the Resurrection?

So, I believe the resurrection simply indicates our spirits will experience a new bodily life. We will come back from a previous bodily form and assume a brand new, and different, bodily form. Inasmuch as we will assume another bodily form we may call it a "resurrection" of sorts, because the old bodily existence is gone, even as our spirits continue to exist.
Paul's language in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 seems to say otherwise. God can reassemble our bodies to perfect them.

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
 
Paul's language in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 seems to say otherwise. God can reassemble our bodies to perfect them.

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Maybe you didn't understand my question: if the elements of a deceased body return to the "dust," becoming nutrients, or fertilizer, that are then used by plants, which in turn are eaten by other animals, which are then eaten by other humans, which person owns the elements/dust/nutrients in the resurrection?
 
I don't personally think our disintegrated elements must be used to re-fashion new bodies.
John Wesley's sermon "On the Resurrection of the Dead" explores this idea. He discusses how, despite bodies being scattered—whether buried, burned, or lost in the ocean—God's power can restore them at the resurrection. Wesley emphasizes that no matter how fragmented a body becomes, it will be reassembled in its original form.

This belief aligns with 1 Corinthians 15:35, where Paul addresses doubts about resurrection, affirming that God can raise the dead in ways beyond human understanding.

The earthquake at the time of Jesus' crucifixion is described in Matthew 27:51: "At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, and the rocks were split." Additionally, Matthew 27:52-53 mentions that after the earthquake, many saints were resurrected and appeared to people in Jerusalem. This moment foreshadowed the power of Christ’s resurrection and the promise of eternal life.

We do not know what happened to them after that. We know how Jesus departed. So perhaps they departed in the same way that He did. We do know that He ate fish to show he had an actual body.
 
Maybe you didn't understand my question: if the elements of a deceased body return to the "dust," becoming nutrients, or fertilizer, that are then used by plants, which in turn are eaten by other animals, which are then eaten by other humans, which person owns the elements/dust/nutrients in the resurrection?
Wesley addresses that when he says that the elements that make us up will just pass through them. They will only be able to use the energy that we have stored up inside of us. That is why we fatten up animals to eat them.

He believed that animals were originally in harmony with humanity and that their suffering was a consequence of human sin. His views on the restoration of creation suggest that all elements, including the physical makeup of beings, will be transformed in the resurrection. The Bible says there will be no more death.

In ecology, the food chain describes how energy moves through an ecosystem as organisms consume one another. Animals that "work their way up" the food chain are typically predators that evolve to hunt more efficiently or adapt to new food sources.
 
John Wesley's sermon "On the Resurrection of the Dead" explores this idea. He discusses how, despite bodies being scattered—whether buried, burned, or lost in the ocean—God's power can restore them at the resurrection. Wesley emphasizes that no matter how fragmented a body becomes, it will be reassembled in its original form.
The question is, Does God use a man's fragments to reassemble the original form, or does He create a new body out of nothing? Or, perhaps God will form our glorified bodies out of random dust?

I believe it to be the latter for the reasons I gave--elements in the world of deceased persons have come to be used by more than one person. They cannot be reassembled using the same elements!

There is no set of elements that belong exclusively to a single deceased person! For "dust" to "awaken" we would have to mean something metaphorical, and not literal. For "dust to awaken" God could simply assemble a new set of "dust" to form a new man.

This is not an issue of "faith" for me. It takes more of the wrong kind of faith to believe people are assembled from their original elements than to believe what the Bible teaches, that we are resurrected unto *brand new glorified bodies!*

I don't want to believe in irrational faith. I want to believe what the Bible teaches--not man's twisted conception of what it teaches based on a false sense of the word "resurrection." "Coming out of graves" is a metaphorical statement. So is "sleeping in death."
This belief aligns with 1 Corinthians 15:35, where Paul addresses doubts about resurrection, affirming that God can raise the dead in ways beyond human understanding.
That wasn't Paul's point. People have trouble believing God is going to give people new bodies period. It doesn't have anything to do with what material He makes the new bodies out of. If God created the world to start with there is no trouble in believing He assembles people who have died out of nothing.

The real problem is, people don't believe God created the world. Or, they believe He is indifferent to human death--nothing is going to change the world the way it is now.
The earthquake at the time of Jesus' crucifixion is described in Matthew 27:51: "At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, and the rocks were split." Additionally, Matthew 27:52-53 mentions that after the earthquake, many saints were resurrected and appeared to people in Jerusalem. This moment foreshadowed the power of Christ’s resurrection and the promise of eternal life.
This resurrection was an OT resurrection--not a glorification event. When Jesus rose from the dead, he was healed just as his friend Lazarus was healed.

But he wasn't finished. He told Mary not to restrain him because his job was not finished. He had to return to heaven to be glorified. This is a much better form of resurrection than mere healing!

The saints who came out of their tombs at the time of Jesus' cross were obviously people who had died fairly recently, or at least were still in their tombs. They were healed, and not yet glorified.
We do not know what happened to them after that. We know how Jesus departed. So perhaps they departed in the same way that He did. We do know that He ate fish to show he had an actual body.
Those who were raised from the dead had to die again, just as Lazarus had to, or as any of those who died in the OT era, who were healed, and then had to die again.

When you arise in your mortal body you must die again. When you arise in a healed sinful body you must die again.

But when we rise in glorified bodies, we will be sinless and will never die again. That's the difference.

And I believe this will require a new creation beyond that which was created in the creation of the world. Or, God will assemble dust randomly to form new glorified humans, just as he made Adam in the beginning from the dust, though he was not assembled from a specific set of dust.
 
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