Justification for Fornication?

[theLords]

Originally Posted by highlife
Sexual immorality and fornication is derived from pornia which is best translated as temple prostitution or perhaps prostitution in general not what the modern church has made it in to

Bible Bereans, can you please address this?

 

[Digger]

Mat_19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Mat_19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for temple prostitution, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

1Co_7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1Co_7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid temple prostitution, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1Co_5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1Co_5:1 It is reported commonly that there is temple prostitution among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to temple prostitution, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.





Heb_13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Whoremongers - G4205 - pornos - From πέρνημι pernēmi (to sell; akin to the base of G4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), that is, (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine): - fornicator, whoremonger.

 

[Christ_empowered]

This sounds like the same sort of reasoning driving the gay Christian movement.

 

[Broncobilly1972]

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. (Romans 4:15 KJV)

The ten commandments a small part of the whole of the law, which we see physically because they are both physical and spiritual, But!!!

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (Galatians 5:3 KJV)

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point , he is guilty of all. (James 2:10 KJV)

Look at the title of this post, how easily does "there is no law" become "do what thou wilt"? For those who don't know where that comes from look it up

 

[Tina]

What's the difference between "temple prostitution" and other prostitution ?

 

[woodlandapple]

Bible Bereans, can you please address this?

with my limited understanding, please correct me anyone who knows better,

the VERB, porneu-o(o in this context is an omega) (indv, act, 1sg)in my dictionay means:
I am committing sexual immorality
also used biblically to indicate
1) to prostitute ones body,
2) to give oneself over to unlawful sexual intercourse
3) as a metaphor for; to be given to idolatry, to worship idols.

the NOUN porneia (fem,nom,sg)
basically means illiciate sexual intercourse.but also has the biblical meaning of a metaphor for idol worship. - in context as occuring by eating the sacrifices offered by idols.

the NOUN porn-ey (ey in this context is eta) (fem,nom,sg)
means:
a prostitute
used biblically by:
1) a woman who sells her body for sexual uses
2) a metaphor for idolatress

The NOUN Pornos (masc,nom,sg)
is a man who practices sexual immorality
used biblicaly:
1) a man who prostitutes his body to anothers lust for hire
2) a male prostitute
3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse (a fornictor)

the ultimate root word to all these is probably pernemi which is 'to sell' - but in terms of a person, as in of price into slavery, of the master to whom one is sold as a slave OR as a metaphor as to be sold under sin.

Nowhere have I seen it beeing used to only expressly mean a temple prostitute

 

[Slider]

Please bear with me because I haven’t been around thatlong. I don’t know who Highlife is, orthe context of the quote presented. However, when someone speaks of “temple prostitutionâ€, it makes me thinkof allowing pagan customs into worship of Christ.



When we look at Eph 5:32 we understand that when God isspeaking of relationships between a man and a woman, he his speaking of how therelationship between God and his Church should be. He’s using a natural event to symbolize aspiritual one. That being said, when Iread the OT I see God getting his angriest when Israel or Judah allowedthemselves to mingle with other nation’s paganism. Jer 3 is a perfect example in that God calledIsrael one who played the harlot.



Today, we should ask if grace covers sexual immorality. I believe it does, but I will not state it isok. It’s clearly wrong. However, false worship is not covered bygrace. If a preacher compromises theWord of God because it sounds pleasing to his crowd, he is committing “templeprostitutionâ€. He tells the congregationnice things in hopes they will stick around and support the church.



Two points I’d like to point out. I am not upholding any kind of sexualimmorality at all. I am simply sayingthere are natural and spiritual meanings to the Bible. Both should be considered, but the spiritualmore so. Second, I understand I may havethis whole thing misunderstood. I don’tknow what Highlife was talking about when he said that. I’m simply saying with that one quote whatcomes to my mind.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

Porneia isn't Temple Prostitution, but ti isn't all Sex Outside Marriage either. Actually the Bible clearly defines all Sex in the Millennium as being outside Marriage.

 

[Former Christian]

TheLords

The Greek word porneia comes from a Greek word that means to sell. The word refers to prostitution. Or the selling of one’s body for the use of sex. It can include Temple Priestesses in some pagan religions. But the word doesn’t refer to them alone. Nor does it refer to the idea of “free sex” as is common in America today. That idea wasn’t even popular in America until after the free love movement in the 1960’s. The idea of prostitution is common to every culture. Whether it’s been legalized or not.

Porneia is translated by the English word fornication. Fornication refers to having “sexual intercourse with someone one is not married to” (Oxford Dictionary). It’s another case of a Greek word being translated by an English word that doesn’t have the same meaning as the Greek word. It’s a translation based on the bias of Tradition. And those who only know English suffer through ignorance or misdirection on account of interpretive translations.

Christians have a wrong understanding of many NT words, including metanoia and ekklesia as well as porneia, due to interpretive translations.

Consequently, most of Christianity believes that metanoia refers to repentance in the sense they have been taught, which isn’t even according to the meaning of the English word repentance, which only refers to feeling remorse or regret. Christians think metanoia refers to turning to God and sinning no more. When it actually only refers to a change of mind. And because ekklesia is translated Church, most Christians think that Church as it’s understood in 21st century Christianity is what the Greek word ekklesia means. When ekklesia refers to something much different. And most Christians think that porneia refers to any kind of sex outside of marriage. When it actually refers to a specific kind of sex outside marriage, prostitution. It only stands to reason that if one has sex with a prostitute while married, one is committing adultery.

One can point out what are obviously interpretations based on long held Traditions. But as they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. Most Christians will ague in favor of their Tradition before they’ll believe the truth regarding interpretations. And that too is apparently a long held Tradition.

And one of their arguments is that apart from the Traditional point of view of porneia, one is given license to sin. Having sex outside of marriage for whatever reason. What of the purpose for marriage and sex given plainly in the bible? And shouldn’t the fact that the Law speaks against sex outside of marriage say something to the Christian? Shouldn’t that be enough? Oh yeah, I forgot. Most Christians believe the Law in the bible has been abrogated. I tend to forget they are a Law unto themselves, thinking they are following Jesus Christ and walking by the Spirit while not even following the commandments of God.

Or are the unbelievers being spoken of here? What business is that of ours? But even so, what of respect between two people who claim to love each other? Even among them a marriage is a contract between two people who love and respect each other as companions in family life. What of the uncounted stories of poor unfortunate young people who have had nothing but grief by having sex outside of marriage? How about if one messes with people’s affections, they’re own affections will eventually be messed with? Isn’t common sense enough for them? While it may be true that Christians really have nothing much to say about homosexuality to those who don’t hold to the standards presented in the bible or to the unnaturalness of the practice, there is a commonality with which one who is a Christian can relate to heterosexuals. Even if just on a common sense level.

The English word pornography comes from the Greek word pornographos. Which comes from a Greek word that means to write about prostitutes (Oxford Dictionary). It has a much wider meaning today that includes every kind of sexual perversion....with pictures. We’ve come a long way, baby.

Welcome to the 21st century. An era in which humanity thinks it’s too modern, advanced, and civilized to listen to anything their elders have to say. Especially elders 2000+ years old. Let alone anything a supernatural God might have to say. And just because someone calls himself a Christian doesn’t mean he’s immune to the influence of “modern” man or of a Christian Tradition that tends to believe in its own interpretations.

FC

 

[felix]

Bible Bereans, can you please address this?

(1Cor 5:1) It is actually reported [that there is] sexual immorality [G4202] among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles -- that a man has his father's wife!

G4202 πορνεία porneia (por-nei'-ah) n.
1. prostitution (including adultery, incest, and porn)
2. (by extension) unwedded stimulation or fulfillment of sexual desire
3. (figuratively) idolatry
[from G4203]
KJV: fornication
Root(s): G4203

Paul wasn't referring to any temple prostitution here.

 

[cyberjosh]

Sexual immorality and fornication is derived from pornia which is best translated as temple prostitution or perhaps prostitution in general not what the modern church has made it in to

Bible Bereans, can you please address this?

That argument is primarily lexical, if anything, and is far too narrow to be correct as to the meaning of the word porneia in the NT. It may (perhaps) be derived from porne ('prostitute'), but derived words are not always limited to the sense of the root (I'm not sure though whether porne is actually the root though, or if it also is derived - see below about the "word group" that porne and porneia belong to). Tracing a word to its common Classical Greek usage can be enlightening (and possibly it is true that it was used to refer primarily to temple prostitution in that period) but the NT being written in Koine Greek (not classical Greek) and having the unique message and theological usage of words as it does, a word is rather to be determined by the context that it is used in in addition to its lexical value. A great example is how St. John gave the Greek word Logos a new meaning and connotation it never quite had before in Classical Greek (although it derives meaning from it all the same). However even the strict lexical meaning of the word in all of the authorities that I have consulted include more than just prostitution in the definition of porneia.

I will refer to a Bible word study commentary that I have called Word Meanings in the New Testament by Ralph Earle to quote what he wrote in commenting on passages that use the Greek word porneia. He refers to the Greek scholars William Arndt and Wilbur Gingrich and their Greek lexicon in the process, and also another Greek scholar George Abbott-Smith.

-----
Matthew 5:32 - "Fornication"

The Greek word is porneia which occurs 26 times in the NT and is always (in the KJV) translated as "fornication". It sometimes has this meaning in distinction from moicheia which regularly means "adultery" but only occurs twice in the NT (Matt. 15:19; Mark 7:21).
On the other hand, Abbot-Smith notes that here and in 19:9 it equals moicheia (p. 373). Arndt and Gingrich give this definition of porneia: "prostitution, unchastity, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse" (p. 699).
Today "fornication" means "sexual intercourse between a man and a woman not married to each other" (American heritage Dictionary, p. 517). According to this, it is not an accurate translation here; the meaning is more accurately "marital unfaithfulness" as in the NIV.
--
1 Corinthians 7:2 - "Fornication"

"Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." This seems to suggest a low motive for marriage. But instead of "to avoid fornication," the Greek reads: "on account of the fornications." The NASB renders it correctly, "because of immoralities;" porneia is used in the NT for all kinds of immorality, including adultery and homosexuality. The NIV reads: "But since there is so much immorality."
The reason for Paul's admonition was that Corinth was at that time perhaps the most immoral city in the world. Cases of immorality were to be seen on every side. The Christians at Corinth were safer to be married, since they had to live in such immoral surroundings.
--
Jude 7 - "Giving Themselves Over to Fornication"

This is all one word in Greek, the aorist participle of ekporneuo (only here in the NT). As we have noted before, the noun porneia, which is always translated "fornication" (26 times) in the KJV, takes in more than that term indicates today. It includes all "sexual immorality" (NIV) or "gross immorality" (NASB). This is further enlarged here by the additional "going after strange flesh," which rather obviously suggests homosexuality.
--
Revelation 17:2 - "Committed Fornication... Fornication"

The verb is porneuo, the noun porneia (see above). The first should be translated "committed acts of immorality" (NASB) or "committed adultery" (NIV). The second means "immorality" (NASB) or "adulteries" (NIV). Swete comments, "The porneia of which these kings were guilty consisted in purchasing the favour of Rome by accepting her suzerainty and with it her vices and idolatries" (p. 213).

-----

I also consulted Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words edited by William D. Mounce and looked at the entries for 'fornication' and 'prostitute'. There is a word dedicated to the later, porne, which is related, but does not limit the general sense of "sexual immorality" that porneia conveys.

-----
Fornication
New Testament

Verb: (porneuo), GK 4519 (S 4203), 8x. The word group to which porneuo belongs generally relates to any kind of sexual immorality or fornication (KJV). See commit sexual immorality.
Noun: (porneia), GK 4518 (S 4202), 25x. The word group to which porneia belongs generally relates to any kind of illegitimate sexual intercourse - that is, sexual immorality or fornication (KJV). See sexual immorality.
--
Fornicator
New Testament

Noun: (pornos), GK 4521 (S 4205), 10x. pornos generally refers to any kind of illegitimate sexual intercourse (see also prostitute), but in most scriptural contexts, it carries the sense of one who is sexually immoral (a fornicator or whoremonger, KJV). See sexual immorality.
--
Prostitute
New Testament

Noun: (porne), GK 4520 (S 4204), 12x. porne identifies a person as a "prostitute" ("harlot" or "whore," KJV); it belongs to a word group that denotes various forms of sexual deviance (see sexual immorality).

----

So as you can see, and as indeed Felix also pointed out, from both the meaning of the word and the contexts in which it is used in, the word porneia cannot be limited to simple prostitution (and even is used in contexts of adultery and homosexuality). To say it is limited to "temple prostitution" is not a correct assertion or exegesis of the usage of the word porneia.

I hope this helped.

God bless,
~Josh

 

[woodlandapple]

TheLords

The Greek word porneia comes from a Greek word that means to sell. The word refers to prostitution. Or the selling of one’s body for the use of sex. It can include Temple Priestesses in some pagan religions. But the word doesn’t refer to them alone. Nor does it refer to the idea of “free sex” as is common in America today. That idea wasn’t even popular in America until after the free love movement in the 1960’s. The idea of prostitution is common to every culture. Whether it’s been legalized or not.

Porneia is translated by the English word fornication. Fornication refers to having “sexual intercourse with someone one is not married to” (Oxford Dictionary). It’s another case of a Greek word being translated by an English word that doesn’t have the same meaning as the Greek word. It’s a translation based on the bias of Tradition. And those who only know English suffer through ignorance or misdirection on account of interpretive translations.

Christians have a wrong understanding of many NT words, including metanoia and ekklesia as well as porneia, due to interpretive translations.

Consequently, most of Christianity believes that metanoia refers to repentance in the sense they have been taught, which isn’t even according to the meaning of the English word repentance, which only refers to feeling remorse or regret. Christians think metanoia refers to turning to God and sinning no more. When it actually only refers to a change of mind. And because ekklesia is translated Church, most Christians think that Church as it’s understood in 21st century Christianity is what the Greek word ekklesia means. When ekklesia refers to something much different. And most Christians think that porneia refers to any kind of sex outside of marriage. When it actually refers to a specific kind of sex outside marriage, prostitution. It only stands to reason that if one has sex with a prostitute while married, one is committing adultery.

One can point out what are obviously interpretations based on long held Traditions. But as they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. Most Christians will ague in favor of their Tradition before they’ll believe the truth regarding interpretations. And that too is apparently a long held Tradition.

And one of their arguments is that apart from the Traditional point of view of porneia, one is given license to sin. Having sex outside of marriage for whatever reason. What of the purpose for marriage and sex given plainly in the bible? And shouldn’t the fact that the Law speaks against sex outside of marriage say something to the Christian? Shouldn’t that be enough? Oh yeah, I forgot. Most Christians believe the Law in the bible has been abrogated. I tend to forget they are a Law unto themselves, thinking they are following Jesus Christ and walking by the Spirit while not even following the commandments of God.

Or are the unbelievers being spoken of here? What business is that of ours? But even so, what of respect between two people who claim to love each other? Even among them a marriage is a contract between two people who love and respect each other as companions in family life. What of the uncounted stories of poor unfortunate young people who have had nothing but grief by having sex outside of marriage? How about if one messes with people’s affections, they’re own affections will eventually be messed with? Isn’t common sense enough for them? While it may be true that Christians really have nothing much to say about homosexuality to those who don’t hold to the standards presented in the bible or to the unnaturalness of the practice, there is a commonality with which one who is a Christian can relate to heterosexuals. Even if just on a common sense level.

The English word pornography comes from the Greek word pornographos. Which comes from a Greek word that means to write about prostitutes (Oxford Dictionary). It has a much wider meaning today that includes every kind of sexual perversion....with pictures. We’ve come a long way, baby.

Welcome to the 21st century. An era in which humanity thinks it’s too modern, advanced, and civilized to listen to anything their elders have to say. Especially elders 2000+ years old. Let alone anything a supernatural God might have to say. And just because someone calls himself a Christian doesn’t mean he’s immune to the influence of “modern” man or of a Christian Tradition that tends to believe in its own interpretations.

FC

FC

I agree!!!!! I just want to clarify some specifics that dont sit right to me/I feel doesnt give a whole understanding of such things.

The Greek word porneia comes from a Greek word that means to sell. The word refers to prostitution


tedious maybe,but the word porneia has its ROOT in the word that means to sell ( it doesnt "come from", and if you read my definitions in the post above, and in agreeance to your point in you post, it has a different meaning again just simply 'to sell'.

what im getting to, is that the word porneia doesnt simply mean prostitute, although a better arguement is that the word porney does.

Porneia is a noun describing the act of illiciate sexual activity. Ill let people debate what that actually means themselves. In English we have the same sense, as in "he is sold to his Job, He sold his soul, its not worth the time of day etc, that I think is the crux of the matter in this topic.


Consequently, most of Christianity believes that metanoia refers to repentance in the sense they have been taught, which isn’t even according to the meaning of the English word repentance, which only refers to feeling remorse or regret. Christians think metanoia refers to turning to God and sinning no more. When it actually only refers to a change of mind. And because ekklesia is translated Church, most Christians think that Church as it’s understood in 21st century Christianity is what the Greek word ekklesia means. When ekklesia refers to something much different.


metanoew is a verb that does mean "I change my mind" and yet means sooooo much more than that. when I think of change my mind, its kinda like I thought you where going to get a coffee? nah, I changed my mind, got a tea instead. This word more means like a change in paradigm. A change of life. as in I came to the realisation that the way I was living was not right, I realised I was wrong, I changed my mind on this matter and now understand that tea is part of a far more healthier way of life.
So in Mark 1:15, when Jesus calls out μετανοεῖτε καὶ πιστεύετε ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ. (emphasis mine) or in english (NRSV) repent, and believe in the good news.
Jesus is not asking us to simply change our minds. (First of its an Present imperative so a wooden translation of repent here would be 'You(plural) must keep repenting!'as it is a command that gives a sence of process) He is asking for us to enter into a paradigm shift.


ejkklhsia is a noun meaning assembly. an assembly of people. Yet by the time the NT was being written it was common for it to refer to an assembly of christians, comming together as a 'church' for want of a better word. In Pauls letters to the "assembly" of ................. he is refering to the church at the time. FC is right in saying what there are differences in culture to them and us.

 

[woodlandapple]

A great example is how St. John gave the Greek word Logos a new meaning and connotation it never quite had before in Classical Greek (although it derives meaning from it all the same).

a good example, to note also, John got this idea from Genesis 1, and it is obvious that he is creating parallels to the OT. In fact, even his grammer in writing his first few verses matches the grammer found in the Greek translation of the OT (LXX) and doesnt conform to the grammer usually found at that time.

 

[cyberjosh]

a good example, to note also, John got this idea from Genesis 1, and it is obvious that he is creating parallels to the OT. In fact, even his grammer in writing his first few verses matches the grammer found in the Greek translation of the OT (LXX) and doesnt conform to the grammer usually found at that time.

That's a good point. I know that John 1:1 opens up with the words "En arche", which if I am parsing the Greek correctly I believe we get the word "arch" from, as in an archway, where at the center of the arch is the "topmost" or "chief" point - which can denote a spacial relation in some contexts. The Hebrew word which opens Genesis 1:1, be'reshiyt, has the core word resh/rosh which means "head" or "chief" most of the time, also a spacial relation. However both words can also be used in the sense of time/temporal relation (hence "beginning"), such as "in the chief (beginning) of time". So both words arche and rosh even share the same literal semantic qualities that can be applied to space as well as time. I do believe that John 1:1 was structured after Genesis 1:1 as you say. And that's yet another testimony for the deity of Jesus as if John 1:1 on its own testimony wasn't clear enough on that point!

 

[John 8:32]

Porneia isn't Temple Prostitution, but ti isn't all Sex Outside Marriage either. Actually the Bible clearly defines all Sex in the Millennium as being outside Marriage.

What have you been smoking? The Bible plainly says that all sex outside of marriage is sin and that the wages of sin is death.

 

[John 8:32]

The real issue is that marriage is a picture of Christ and the Church. You think Christ wants a bride who has "whored" around with the Devil? That is what fornication symbolizes and it is no wonder that Satan has tried to make it look so attractive. "Of course it is just a little fooling around (wink wink, nod nod) and it means nothing." That type of thinking will take one straight to the lake of fire.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

No there is actually no verse blanketly condemning Sex outside marriage, all verses where Martial Status is relevant are more specific. This tradiiton of Men is a Bi-Product of Augustine's Gnosticism.

For what I specifically alluded to.
Matthew 22:23-30 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, saying, "Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, [red]"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."[/red]

At the start of the Millennium the Earth is populated only by Resurrected believers, yet at the end there are people for Satan to deceive, obviously then Sexual Reproduction went on despite this lack of Marriage.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

What's the difference between "temple prostitution" and other prostitution ?

They used to have mass orgies in the temples..they believed that sex was pleasing to their Gods. It was a form of worship. Satanists do it today.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

At the start of the Millennium the Earth is populated only by Resurrected believers, yet at the end there are people for Satan to deceive, obviously then Sexual Reproduction went on despite this lack of Marriage.

How do you know this? All it says is that we will be his priests/ministers. What about the sheep(as opposed to goats)? They are not explicitly christian but were kind to christians and fed and clothed them and gave them water. It says Jesus will allow these people in. Is it not possible that he will use this time to allow us to witness? Whittling down the bad eggs to good eggs? This isnt the new heavens and new earth yet so it is well within reason..plus it gives an actual reason as to why this kingdom exists..otherwise it would be kind of pointless..a 1000 year wait? But hey we're the saved lets have it, bring on the new earth with no sin, what we waiting for?!

I believe there will still be sin, but Satan is reigned thus its only the flesh these poor people are fighting against, they will have Jesus Christ and all the best witnesses there ever has been...the whole of christendom from start to finish witnessing to them. Why? This is the last chance. The truly wicked are already gone. You can choose life or destruction.

There is also literally millions of children as well who have yet to be witnessed to, either by early death or abortion. The millenial kingdom is not a respite, its more work for us. If I am wrong..explain this..

*[[Rev 20:6]] MKJV1962* Blessed and holy [is] he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

Who do we reign over? As priests, what sacrifices do we make? We reign over the earth, caring for it, we are priests to the New Sheep! Ministering to them.

Sorry to argue this point so vehemently. I feel it needs to be made though.

1. There will be sex.
2. There will be marriage.
3. There will be babies born.

There will be nothing different..this is not "heaven". This is simply Jesus' physical kingship before he hands the reigns over to God in the New World we will live on. Where God the father dwells with us in a sinless paradise.

 

[woodlandapple]

No there is actually no verse blanketly condemning Sex outside marriage, all verses where Martial Status is relevant are more specific. This tradiiton of Men is a Bi-Product of Augustine's Gnosticism.

please read all the posts on this topic, and the topic this sprung from, and there you will find MANY verse that condemn sex outside of marriage.