Justification vs Self Righteousness

[Kidron]

Lets discuss what damns a person, or what continues the eternal disconnect between a lost soul and Father God.

First , lets understand that "sin" created the disconnect, however, sin in general, is not what damn a person, or what "sends them to hell", after they die.

So, what does?

Well, the answer is , "Self Righteousness".

And what is this?

Well, "Self righteousness" is the continuing act of trying to make yourself right with God based on your behavior.
Its the mental ascension of the unsaved tho religious, whereby they try to achieve salvation based on their effort to be "good enough" to be accepted by Father God.
"Self righteousness" , is simply trying to make yourself "right" with God outside of the available offer of a free and eternal pardon by Grace through faith.
Self righteousness is trying to save yourself by any means OTHER THEN the justification of yourself based on the finished work of the one time sacrifice for all sins as provided by Jesus on the Cross.
"Self righteousness", is the act of trying to continually be your "own" savior.
"Self righteousness", is what send a soul to hell, as this soul has not been justified by the shedding of Christ's blood, and instead will meet the Father with all sins unforgiven.
"Self righteousness", is the willful act of refusing the Grace of God, and trying to replace it with the effort of trying to keep the law instead.
"Self righteousness" is placing faith in anything except for the shed blood and the free gift of Grace.
"Self righteousness" is the damning act of the pride and ego that refuses to accept the free gift of pardon, and instead attempts to self justify (yourself) based on your WORKS, usually based on a theological misunderstanding of the context of James 2:18,24, and or "water baptism" >for< salvation.

"Self righteousness" is rejecting .......Romans 3:21-27, 28, and 4:5,24,25 & 5:1

A soul goes to hell not because of what they do or what they've done, regarding behavior, , but rather they go to hell because of what they choose to believe saves them, instead of what actually does.

"Self righteousness" is an eternally SELF DAMNING belief system that rejects God's "free gift" provision for the salvation of the soul.


K

 

[for_his_glory]

Pharisees and the Sadducees are prime examples of self-righteousness and even in the Church today as the Latin root word for religion is bondage, following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because this Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about a mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ. John 1:1-5; Romans 10:9, 10; John 3:3.


Pharisees supported the scribes and Rabbi's in their interpretation of Jewish law handed down by Moses. (There were over 613 Levtical laws, not just ten. Man had to add on new laws to justify their own needs.) Notice where I said interpretation, this is how many people read the word. The carnal mind cannot perceive the truth of Gods word so instead of allowing the Holy Spirit, John 14:26, to teach them, they would rather have religion teach them. Hosea 4:6 my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.


The Pharisees would separate themselves from society, which did not observe the laws of tithing and rituals. The interpretation of the law became more authoritative than the law itself. Matthew 9:13 for I am not come to call the righteous, but the sinners to repentance. Matthew 23:1- 39 Jesus first characterizes the Pharisees and then condemns them and laments over the falling away of the church. John 3:1- 12 Jesus explains to Nicodemus, whom was a Pharisee, what one must do in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven. Note also Romans 10:9, 10.


Nicodemus, Joseph of Aremathaea (Luke 23:50- 53), and Gamaliel (Acts 5:34- 39) were three Pharisees that believed in Christ, but had to hide it for fear of going against the sect. Paul also was a Pharisee that persecuted Christians to death for the sake of the sect (Acts 22).


Sadducees are followers of a certain heretical, which departs from established beliefs or standards. They were the elite of Jewish society. They were priest, merchants and aristocrats. They supported the Roman authorities because they enjoyed a privileged status under Roman rule. They were loyal to the Law of Moses insisting that any other interpretation of the law could not be trusted. They did not believe in what Jesus was teaching, because it came against there interpretations. They did not believe in the resurrection of the dead (Mark 12:18 - 27; 1 Corinthians 15:35 - 58).


Matthew 27:45 - 54; Galatians 3:10- 14, 19 When Jesus cried out to God, God did not forsake him, but had to turn away from all the sin Jesus was taking upon himself because God can not see sin, but can only recognize the intent of the heart. When the veil of the temple was torn in two it was torn from top to bottom, not from the bottom up, but what this represented was Jesus being made an end to the curse of the law as Jesus came to fulfill the law. We have now entered into a new blood covenant, which puts us under the dispensation of grace.


Grace is unmerited, undeserved favor, Gods willingness to use his power and authority, given to us even though we do not deserve it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

This all leads up to loving the Son of God, but instead, they wanted to kill him.

 

[for_his_glory]

Just think if they would have known that which they were doing away with. or I should say trying to do away with

 

[Jesse Stone]

Christians who think they are being saved by their personal faith, regardless whether or not that includes the works that express that faith, regardless of who or what that faith is in, are being self righteous. They are placing their faith in their own faith.

This does not imply that personal faith is unnecessary for believers. Personal faith is integral, but does not save. God has offered a free gift and by personal faith one accepts the gift. But it isn't the personal faith that saves. It is the gift that saves. That gift is all that has been accomplished by Christ. All that Christ has accomplished through his own faith. All that has been accomplished by Christ are the works of Christ that are the fruit of his own exercise of his own faith. Ergo it is the faith of Christ that saves. Not personal faith.

 

[Mike S]

Christians who think they are being saved by their personal faith, regardless whether or not that includes the works that express that faith, regardless of who or what that faith is in, are being self righteous. They are placing their faith in their own faith.

This does not imply that personal faith is unnecessary for believers. Personal faith is integral, but does not save. God has offered a free gift and by personal faith one accepts the gift. But it isn't the personal faith that saves. It is the gift that saves. That gift is all that has been accomplished by Christ. All that Christ has accomplished through his own faith. All that has been accomplished by Christ are the works of Christ that are the fruit of his own exercise of his own faith. Ergo it is the faith of Christ that saves. Not personal faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

Romans 5 is a pretty good explanation of permanently being made the righteousness of God, thereby being cast in the form of righteousness forever. For the words for sin and righteousness are nouns in this chapter, not verbs. In other words, once righteous, you cannot lose it.

 

[By Grace]

Lets discuss what damns a person, or what continues the eternal disconnect between a lost soul and Father God.

First , lets understand that "sin" created the disconnect, however, sin in general, is not what damn a person, or what "sends them to hell", after they die.

<SNIP>
"Self righteousness" is an eternally SELF DAMNING belief system that rejects God's "free gift" provision for the salvation of the soul.

K

Please do not get upset, but it seems as if you are creating a straw man argument, and I am asking you to clarify your post. Here is why I say that:

1. You begin with sin creating a "disconnect". However, you do not define what you mean by that term, so the readers have to guess at your meaning.
2. Then you go off onto condemning "self righteousness" but you that without connecting it to any known theological system.
   
3. Finally you state this, "A soul goes to hell not because of what they do or what they've done, regarding behavior, , but rather they go to hell because of what they choose to believe saves them, instead of what actually does."

Could you please define what you meant in #1?
Could you please elaborate about the target of your anger, relating it to something concrete, or to a theology?
Could you please find support from Scripture for #3?

All I am doing is asking for clarity so that I can respond better, OK?

BTW I am curious about the fact that you did not mention salvation by unmerited grace.

 

[Barbarian]

James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Neither our own works nor our own faith will save us; that comes from the grace of God. Faith and works are what we do under that grace.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

James is pointing out that faith creates works, just as the spirit gives life to the body; that's why we are doers of the Word, not hearers only (faith acts on the Word - if we just hear it, nothing happens).

 

[Jesse Stone]

Mike S #6

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Precisely.

Considered in light of Romans 5:12-21, and the verses that speak of faith together with Christ and justification. Such as Romans 3:21-31, Galatians 2:15-21, Philippians 3:4-12, and James 2:1. The two verses above show how salvation is by the grace of God, through a faith that is not our own. A gift that is not to be worked for. The faith of Christ. By which the works of Christ have been accomplished.

 

[Kidron]

Christians who think they are being saved by their personal faith, regardless whether or not that includes the works that express that faith, regardless of who or what that faith is in, are being self righteous. They are placing their faith in their own faith.

.

yes,

faith in faith is not faith in God, is not faith in Christ.

and this also speaks to the problem with so much of the "word of faith" crowd that saturates the Christian airwaves...........this........."build your faith"......"faith, faith, faith".....teaching......."release your faith" and so forth.
There is a clear misunderstanding regarding "faith" and having faith, as they would teach that if you can get your FAITH going....that is to say.....to build a huge FAITH in your belief that its your faith that is going to achieve the result instead of GOD that produces the result.

or as you stated............having "faith in faith", which is a useless and wrong application.

the word of God in Jude 1:20 speaks about the kind of faith that IS the holy process of faith that is all about believing in GOD as the supply and helper and not our faith being the supply and trigger.

 

[Kidron]

James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Neither our own works nor our own faith will save us; that comes from the grace of God. Faith and works are what we do under that grace.

amen.

yes.
its the Grace of GOD that is poured out as pardon on us for FREE., when we take it by FAITH.

then, as newly created born again Children of Light, we are to do DEEDS that represent the >Christians< that God has RECREATED us to be by his blood bought Eternal Grace and imputed redemption..

 

[Barbarian]

James is pointing out that faith creates works, just as the spirit gives life to the body;

But that's not what he says, is it? In fact, God tells us in James 2, just the opposite:
James 2:[18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

This is why Luther wanted to remove James from the Bible. He correctly argued that it contradicted his doctrine of "faith only."

If we go with what God says in James, without man's editing, we have to conclude that one is justified by works as well as faith. And if a theology depends on not accepting what He says, what good is it?

 

[Barbarian]

Matthew 25:[31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

 

[jeff77]

But that's not what he says, is it? In fact, God tells us in James 2, just the opposite:
James 2:[18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

This is why Luther wanted to remove James from the Bible. He correctly argued that it contradicted his doctrine of "faith only."

If we go with what God says in James, without man's editing, we have to conclude that one is justified by works as well as faith. And if a theology depends on not accepting what He says, what good is it?

Yes, I can see how we are justified by faith as well as works but what I understand is that the works are performed by God through us and we don't take credit for the works.

 

[Jesse Stone]

Kidron #12

this also speaks to the problem with so much of the "word of faith" crowd that saturates the Christian airwaves...........this........."build your faith"......"faith, faith, faith".....teaching......."release your faith" and so forth.
There is a clear misunderstanding regarding "faith" and having faith, as they would teach that if you can get your FAITH going....that is to say.....to build a huge FAITH in your belief that its your faith that is going to achieve the result instead of GOD that produces the result.

Wish I could say I was only referring to the word of faith movement. But the idea of believing in one's own faith is general throughout Christianity. Whether faith in the Church, faith in the Bible, faith in God or Jesus Christ. It all comes down to believing in one's own faith that saves in the end. The controversy between justification by faith and works vs. faith alone wouldn't have been a controversy if not for the idea that one is justified by personal faith. The modern Bibles wouldn't have had to change the meaning of certain verses to conform the idea that justification is by personal faith in Christ. Justification is by the faith of Christ, not personal faith. If the Protestants would have understood that from the beginning, the faith alone Protestants wouldn't have to interpret James every which way to support their own view. And the Catholics wouldn't have anything to oppose other than Protestant opposition to human authority over the Bible. As it is, the Protestants have conformed to the idea of human authority over the Bible in their own way. A rose is a rose is a rose. The only difference between the Catholics and Protestants nowadays is a choice of which Pope or sub-Popes to follow.

 

[Jesse Stone]

jeff77 #16

Yes, I can see how we are justified by faith as well as works but what I understand is that the works are performed by God through us and we don't take credit for the works.

For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10)

God gives us what to say and do. That's why we shouldn't take any credit, any more than Jesus did. God through the Spirit uses the Bible to tell us what those prepared good works consist of. Pretty hard to know what God is telling us if we interpret the Bible to say something other than what he says.

 

[Jesse Stone]

Kidron

Just read your post on "The True Bible" thread. Very good. I would have just told him to trust in the providence of God. That what is necessary of the Bible is still there plain as day. But Classik's thankfulness showed he needed the longer answer.

 

[jeff77]

jeff77 #16





God gives us what to say and do. That's why we shouldn't take any credit, any more than Jesus did. God through the Spirit uses the Bible to tell us what those prepared good works consist of. Pretty hard to know what God is telling us if we interpret the Bible to say something other than what he says.

Yes, good point but I didn't think I was interpreting the Bible to say anything other than what it says. However I know that I probably don't have the correct understanding of every part of the Bible but Im sure that if I sincerely want to know what God is telling me he will let me know one way or another.