JW Book: “What Can the Bible Teach Us?”

[KV-44-v1]

I don't think he is doing that. He may be a "Unitarian". While some elements are similar, he doesn't agree with JWs or Islam. It would be a good feature if posters were identified by denomination, so we wouldn't get the wrong idea about a poster. I'm basically a Free will Reformed Baptist, with certain differences when it comes to Eschatology and the Filioque.

I changed my PROFILE so the denomination I prefer over others appears instead of "Mr".

Ah. Thanks for defending the Faith against "strange teachings" like unitarianism.
Unitarianism is still, however, a COMPROMISED belief. It exalts mans word, like islam and cult beliefs, at or above God's Word.

The concept of the Trinity eludes their minds, so they aim for what they think is a 'simpler view' of God. But the thing is, accepting & even understanding the Trinity isn't really that hard! So unitarianism is kinda..... a cop out?

 

[KV-44-v1]

Substance

Is God a material? <hint: no.> why use word 'substance'?

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

What is another factor is that the word "Angels" in Psalm 8:5 is translated from the word "Elohim" showing that the diversity is sometimes God and the Angels and this is very relevant to Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:26-27.
Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Hebrew Elohim), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Not really. As with any language, a word can have multiple meanings depending on the context. Again, humans are never said to be made in the image of any beings other than God, nor are angels ever said to be made in the image of God. Both of those are going beyond Scripture.

I suggest that the Angels appear as they are in person.

But that is going beyond what Scripture reveals of angels.

This thread is concerning the JWs, and in their fantasy they have Jesus assuming a human body to appear on a number of occasions and then vaporising back into an invisible spirit being. I believe in the resurrection of the body of Jesus

Yes, they are very wrong on that.

and that Angels are substantial physical beings, not ghosts.

Of course they are not ghosts, but there is nothing in Scripture that states they are physical beings. In fact:

Heb 1:7 Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.” (ESV)

"Winds" being the Greek word pneuma, which is translated as "Spirit," "spirit," or "spirits" 374 times out of 380 times in the NT.

Again your favourite statement/question and you refuse to accept the obvious.

Yet, it is you that avoided answering the question again. It is not I that refuses to accept the obvious.

Jesus is the human Son of God because God the Father is the father of Jesus in the conception/begettal process and Mary is his mother.

Is the Father human? What son is ever of a different nature than his father?

You cannot create a God and you cannot conceive/beget a God.

Of course a god cannot be created or conceived; that has nothing to do with Trinitarianism or anything that I have said. The Son preexisted in the form of God, being God in nature, and became human by being born of Mary.

Your analogy is very flawed, but you will keep on asking.

You have not shown the “analogy” to be flawed; you haven't even addressed it. We are made in God's image, which means we are the analogues to God, not the other way around. If God reveals himself as Father and Son, it is because he is communicating something of himself to us in a way that we can understand. We know at least one important thing about fathers and sons--they are always of the same nature.

If the Son is of a different nature than the Father, then he cannot be the Son of the Father, and that relationship communicates nothing to us. The Jews fully understood the implications of Jesus claiming to be the Son of God, that it was a claim to be equal to the Father (John 5:18; 10:33).

If you want to talk flawed, a unitarian god is deficient and cannot be the God of the Bible, because he cannot be love as John states in 1 John 4:8, 16. It is impossible for one person to be love, for love to be an attribute of their nature.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Is God a material? <hint: no.> why use word 'substance'?

No, God is not material. He is the infinite substance Jesus called "Spirit", but perhaps the term "essence" is better.

As in Him all things consist (Col. 1:17) it logically follows He is "more substantial" than everything combined, to the infinite degree---the underlying reality that never changes. But not material as we perceive matter. He is the "essence" in which all things "hold together" whether in heaven, or earth. God is the place where all places exist,

Perhaps I should stop using the term "substance", "essence" is better.

1. Substance (Latin: substantia): This term is derived from Latin and is used in Western theological traditions. It emphasizes the idea that the three Persons of the Trinity share the same underlying reality or "substance."
2. Essence (Greek: οὐσία, ousia): This term comes from Greek and is more common in Eastern theological traditions. It focuses on the being or nature that the three Persons share.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

I decided to not answer all that has been stated in the various posts, as I consider that what I have already stated is what I still believe and hold fast.

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?" (Isa. 6:8 NKJ)

I have been very interested in Isaiah 6 over many years, ever since we had an Isaiah home study class in my early 20's, nearly 60 years ago. The Apostle John identifies the King sitting upon the Temple Throne as Jesus in glory:

John 12:37–41 (KJV): 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

So Isaiah 6 is not a vision of the Trinity, but a vision of the future Jesus sitting on the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem during the 1000 years. The "us" is not the Trinity, but Jesus including the Seraphim, who were his attendees at the time. The whole vision is rather unique with many layers, but it is not teaching the Trinity.

If you believe that Jesus isn't God, you have "introduced Mohammed's nose into the tent of your brain". They both have 'Jesus not God' ideology ingrained in them.

I find your continued reference to Islam and cults as offensive and your application of this above as almost abusive. Yes, Moslems when converting to Christianity find the doctrine of the Trinity very difficult and more readily accept the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

Is the Father human? What son is ever of a different nature than his father?

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the father of the human Jesus, with Mary as his mother in the conception/begettal process and as such Jesus is the Son of Adam through Mary and the Son of God through Yahweh, both as his parents.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

I decided to not answer all that has been stated in the various posts, as I consider that what I have already stated is what I still believe and hold fast.

I have been very interested in Isaiah 6 over many years, ever since we had an Isaiah home study class in my early 20's, nearly 60 years ago. The Apostle John identifies the King sitting upon the Temple Throne as Jesus in glory:

John 12:37–41 (KJV): 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

So Isaiah 6 is not a vision of the Trinity, but a vision of the future Jesus sitting on the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem during the 1000 years. The "us" is not the Trinity, but Jesus including the Seraphim, who were his attendees at the time. The whole vision is rather unique with many layers, but it is not teaching the Trinity.

John 12:37–41 (KJV): 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

That ignores John's reason for saying this: "to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed"?

What is the "arm of the LORD". An angel or something more? The question is about believing Jesus' glory, believing "on him" for salvation. Who is the Savior of Israel, is it not Yahweh God?

NKJ Exod. 6:6 "Therefore say to the children of Israel:`I am the LORD; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.
NKJ Exod. 15:16 Fear and dread will fall on them; By the greatness of Your arm They will be as still as a stone, Till Your people pass over, O LORD, Till the people pass over Whom You have purchased.
NKJ Num. 11:23 And the LORD said to Moses, "Has the LORD'S arm been shortened? Now you shall see whether what I say will happen to you or not."
NKJ Deut. 4:34 "Or did God ever try to go and take for Himself a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, by wonders, by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
NKJ Deut. 5:15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
NKJ Deut. 7:19 "the great trials which your eyes saw, the signs and the wonders, the mighty hand and the outstretched arm, by which the LORD your God brought you out. So shall the LORD your God do to all the peoples of whom you are afraid.
NKJ Deut. 11:2 "Know today that I do not speak with your children, who have not known and who have not seen the chastening of the LORD your God, His greatness and His mighty hand and His outstretched arm--
NKJ Deut. 26:8 `So the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm, with great terror and with signs and wonders.
NKJ 2 Ki. 17:36 "but the LORD, who brought you up from the land of Egypt with great power and an outstretched arm, Him you shall fear, Him you shall worship, and to Him you shall offer sacrifice.
NKJ Ps. 98:1 <A Psalm.> Oh, sing to the LORD a new song! For He has done marvelous things; His right hand and His holy arm have gained Him the victory.
NKJ Isa. 30:30 The LORD will cause His glorious voice to be heard, And show the descent of His arm, With the indignation of His anger And the flame of a devouring fire, With scattering, tempest, and hailstones.
NKJ Isa. 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.
NKJ Isa. 48:14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
NKJ Isa. 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD! Awake as in the ancient days, In the generations of old. Are You not the arm that cut Rahab apart, And wounded the serpent?
NKJ Isa. 52:10 The LORD has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations; And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God.
NKJ Isa. 53:1 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
NKJ Isa. 62:8 The LORD has sworn by His right hand And by the arm of His strength: "Surely I will no longer give your grain As food for your enemies; And the sons of the foreigner shall not drink your new wine, For which you have labored.
NKJ Ezek. 20:33 "As I live," says the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you.
NKJ Jn. 12:38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?"


Moreover, do you have examples where God asks Seraphim their opinions and includes them in a "us" "we" "our" situation? If not, then your interpretation is likely "special pleading", denying what is probable for something unlikely.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

John 12:37–41 (KJV): 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
That ignores John's reason for saying this: "to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed"?
What is the "arm of the LORD". An angel or something more? The question is about believing Jesus' glory, believing "on him" for salvation. Who is the Savior of Israel, is it not Yahweh God?

John quotes from both Isaiah 6:9-10 and Isaiah 53:1 and applies these two references to the situation in John 12 which is the end of Christ's public ministry. The arm of the LORD is a direct quotation of the words of Isaiah 53:1 and is specifically speaking about Jesus in his sufferings and the salvation that would be available through Jesus:

Isaiah 53:1–3 (KJV): 1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

The quotation of Isaiah 6:9-10 comes from the chapter that also speaks of the King in glory, sitting upon His Temple Throne. Both references collectively are summarised by John when he says:

John 12:41 (KJV): These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Moreover, do you have examples where God asks Seraphim their opinions and includes them in a "us" "we" "our" situation? If not, then your interpretation is likely "special pleading", denying what is probable for something unlikely.

Isaiah 6 is the only occurrence of the Seraphim so we need to understand Isaiah 6 and its detail. I consider that the Seraphim and the Cherubim are symbolic creatures. Isaiah 6 is a vision of Jesus as Yahweh's representative in the Age to Come.

You have given a long list of quotations about the arm of the Lord, but Zechariah uses a similar expression "horn of salvation" when describing Jesus the Saviour:

Luke 1:67–79 (KJV): 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. 76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, 78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, 79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

John quotes from both Isaiah 6:9-10 and Isaiah 53:1 and applies these two references to the situation in John 12 which is the end of Christ's public ministry. The arm of the LORD is a direct quotation of the words of Isaiah 53:1 and is specifically speaking about Jesus in his sufferings and the salvation that would be available through Jesus:

Isaiah 53:1–3 (KJV): 1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

The quotation of Isaiah 6:9-10 comes from the chapter that also speaks of the King in glory, sitting upon His Temple Throne. Both references collectively are summarised by John when he says:

John 12:41 (KJV): These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Isaiah 6 is the only occurrence of the Seraphim so we need to understand Isaiah 6 and its detail. I consider that the Seraphim and the Cherubim are symbolic creatures. Isaiah 6 is a vision of Jesus as Yahweh's representative in the Age to Come.

You lost John's train of thought. Yahweh's "arm" is Yahweh. Jesus is "Yahweh's Arm". Therefore, Jesus is Yahweh, that is the glory Isaiah saw but no one believed because of Calvary, because Jesus was rejected, despised.

Compare John 1:1, 4 "The Word was God...and the darkness did not comprehend."

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. (Jn. 1:1-5 NKJ)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

You lost John's train of thought. Yahweh's "arm" is Yahweh. Jesus is "Yahweh's Arm". Therefore, Jesus is Yahweh, that is the glory Isaiah saw but no one believed because of Calvary, because Jesus was rejected, despised.

Looking at Isaiah 6, the vision is of a King/Priest in the Most Holy Place of the Temple. The vision is of a single Person, and John identifies the Person as Jesus. So where are God the Father and the supposed God the Holy Spirit if the "us" is referring to the Trinity as you initially stated?

There is another OT prophecy that contains a vision of a Throne and this seems to be different to the Throne in Isaiah 6.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Jesus speaks about this Throne in the following and calls this throne the Father's Throne:
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Jesus not only speaks about the Father's Throne, but he speaks of the faithful as sharing Jesus' future Throne, and this Throne is the Temple Throne of Isaiah 6.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

Looking at Isaiah 6, the vision is of a King/Priest in the Most Holy Place of the Temple. The vision is of a single Person, and John identifies the Person as Jesus. So where are God the Father and the supposed God the Holy Spirit if the "us" is referring to the Trinity as you initially stated?

There is another OT prophecy that contains a vision of a Throne and this seems to be different to the Throne in Isaiah 6.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Jesus speaks about this Throne in the following and calls this throne the Father's Throne:
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Jesus not only speaks about the Father's Throne, but he speaks of the faithful as sharing Jesus' future Throne, and this Throne is the Temple Throne of Isaiah 6.

Kind regards
Trevor

John refers to Jesus' glory as the "arm of the LORD [Yahweh]", that's what darkness can't comprehend. The Word despised by men, "was God" in the flesh.

My arm is me, your arm is you, the "arm of Yahweh" is Yahweh God. Therefore, the glory darkness cannot comprehend is that Jesus is Yahweh God [the Son].

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. (Jn. 1:1-5 NKJ)

The logic is elegant, manifesting "parsimony" a characteristic of truth, of correct interpretation.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Is God a material? <hint: no.> why use word 'substance'?

I failed to be accurate. The "infinitely complex" notion is wrong if it implies God has "parts". I don't think of it that way, He certainly doesn't have parts.

It is best to stick with an Orthodox definition:

"Divine simplicity means that God is not composed of parts or attributes that are distinct from His essence."

That logically follows from God's omnipresence, He Personally is present everywhere.

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me. (Ps. 139:7-10 NKJ)

 

[KV-44-v1]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

Looking at Isaiah 6, the vision is of a King/Priest in the Most Holy Place of the Temple. The vision is of a single Person, and John identifies the Person as Jesus. So where are God the Father and the supposed God the Holy Spirit if the "us" is referring to the Trinity as you initially stated?

There is another OT prophecy that contains a vision of a Throne and this seems to be different to the Throne in Isaiah 6.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Jesus speaks about this Throne in the following and calls this throne the Father's Throne:
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Jesus not only speaks about the Father's Throne, but he speaks of the faithful as sharing Jesus' future Throne, and this Throne is the Temple Throne of Isaiah 6.

Kind regards
Trevor

You mention Jesus having a throne!!! HOW does a mere man who isn't God have a THRONE to share????
you weaken your case by 5000%!!!!

Jesus is God! anything contradicting this FACT is of an ANTI CHRIST SPIRIT. (oh, and why anti Christ and not anti God? perhaps because Jesus is God!)
no, seriously.

Why was peter denying Jesus SO SIGNIFICANT, if He was NOT God ?
If God was NOT three Persons, then why did Peter deny Him THREE times, and not only 1 time??

Why is 1/3=0.3333.. 2/3=0.66... (endless 6)
BUT
3/3 = 1 ?????

THREE PERSONS, BUT ONE GOD!
MATH PROVES THE TRINITY!! R.I.P. UNITARIANISM!!
WHY DID JESUS SAY "NO ONE IS GOOD BUT GOD"?? JESUS WAS THE ONLY SINLESS ONE.
therefore He was God!!

 

[KV-44-v1]

Both of those are going beyond Scripture.

Expect unitarians to do that a lot. their core tenet (1 Person only God) is itself, unBiblical.

 

[KV-44-v1]

If you want to talk flawed, a unitarian god is deficient and cannot be the God of the Bible, because he cannot be love as John states in 1 John 4:8, 16. It is impossible for one person to be love, for love to be an attribute of their nature.

BOOOOM!! Unitarianism's u-boat SUNK before it left the DOCK!!!!!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson and KV-44-v1,

John refers to Jesus' glory as the "arm of the LORD [Yahweh]", that's what darkness can't comprehend. The Word despised by men, "was God" in the flesh.

The arm of Yahweh is figurative language representing God's power whereby he accomplishes his purpose, and in this case it is salvation through the ministration of God's servant, our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God.

You mention Jesus having a throne!!! HOW does a mere man who isn't God have a THRONE to share????
you weaken your case by 5000%!!!!

David had a Throne and Jesus was promised that he would inherit David's Throne and this is because he was a descendant of David through Mary:
Luke 1:32–33 (KJV): 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Solomon also sat upon the Throne of David and it is interesting that here the Throne of David is called the Throne of Yahweh:
1 Chronicles 29:23 (KJV): Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

Why was peter denying Jesus SO SIGNIFICANT, if He was NOT God ?
If God was NOT three Persons, then why did Peter deny Him THREE times, and not only 1 time??

If I was to assess the possible validity of an idea to support the Trinity, say from 1 to 10, your suggestion above would be rewarded as minus 4. This is possibly the worst argument I have ever heard in the last 20 years of my participation in forums.

Why is 1/3=0.3333.. 2/3=0.66... (endless 6) BUT 3/3 = 1 ?????
THREE PERSONS, BUT ONE GOD! MATH PROVES THE TRINITY!! R.I.P. UNITARIANISM!!

Whoops, I retract the above, this is far worse. Score: minus 7.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson and KV-44-v1,

The arm of Yahweh is figurative language representing God's power whereby he accomplishes his purpose, and in this case it is salvation through the ministration of God's servant, our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God.

Again you fail to see the main point of the figurative language. Jesus as Yahweh's Arm of salvation, is hidden, His glory as God the Son the Redeemer is not seen:

36 "While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,
38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?"
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. (Jn. 12:36-41 NKJ)

7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.
9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?
11 Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away. (Isa. 51:7-11 KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (1 Cor. 10:1-4 KJV)


21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
KJV Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. (Isa. 26:21-27:1 KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (Rev. 19:11-16 KJV)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

Again you fail to see the main point of the figurative language. Jesus as Yahweh's Arm of salvation, is hidden, His glory as God the Son the Redeemer is not seen:

I can agree with the rest of your post, but the concept of "God the Son" was developed by the Apostate Church and endorsed by an assembly of bishops at the Council of Nicaea in the 4th Century. These bishops had by some means or another worked their way up to the top of their respective ecclesiastical regions, contrary to the example of the appointed bishops in each Ekklesia of the first century. Although most Protestant groups do not endorse or follow that structure today, nor do they endorse the Bishop of Rome as the Chief Bishop, nevertheless they endorse their false doctrine, and ignore the simple, clear Apostolic teaching that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Christ, The Son of God.

John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

I can agree with the rest of your post, but the concept of "God the Son" was developed by the Apostate Church and endorsed by an assembly of bishops at the Council of Nicaea in the 4th Century. These bishops had by some means or another worked their way up to the top of their respective ecclesiastical regions, contrary to the example of the appointed bishops in each Ekklesia of the first century. Although most Protestant groups do not endorse or follow that structure today, nor do they endorse the Bishop of Rome as the Chief Bishop, nevertheless they endorse their false doctrine, and ignore the simple, clear Apostolic teaching that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Christ, The Son of God.

John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Kind regards
Trevor

I asked ChatGPT for comment on your "apostate church" theory. Here is one of the two replies it gave:

The theory that the concept of "God the Son" was developed by an "Apostate Church" and endorsed by an assembly of bishops at the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century can be contradicted by several historical facts:

1. Pre-Nicene Christology:
   • Early Christian writings and creeds, long before the Council of Nicaea, reflect a belief in the divinity of Jesus and his relationship to the Father as the Son. Examples include the writings of the Apostolic Fathers (such as Ignatius of Antioch) and early Christian apologists (like Justin Martyr). These sources attest to an early and widespread belief in Jesus as divine.
2. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–107 AD):
   • Ignatius, in his letters (e.g., to the Ephesians, the Magnesians), refers to Jesus Christ as "our God" and emphasizes His preexistence and divine sonship. Ignatius’s writings indicate that the concept of Jesus as God the Son was already present in early Christian belief.
3. Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD):
   • Justin Martyr, in his "First Apology" and "Dialogue with Trypho," clearly articulates the Logos theology, identifying Jesus as the preexistent Word (Logos) who is both distinct from and yet one with God the Father. This Logos theology aligns with the later Nicene articulation of the relationship between the Father and the Son.
4. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD):
   • Irenaeus, in his work "Against Heresies," strongly defends the divinity of Christ and refers to Him as the Son of God. He combats early heresies that denied the full divinity and humanity of Jesus, showing that the belief in Jesus as God the Son was not a novel 4th-century invention.
5. Tertullian (c. 155–240 AD):
   • Tertullian, in "Against Praxeas" and other works, articulates a proto-Trinitarian theology, describing God as one substance but three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). His writings demonstrate the early development and acceptance of the concept of the Trinity and the divinity of Christ.
6. Council of Nicaea (325 AD):
   • The Council of Nicaea was convened to address the Arian controversy, which questioned the divinity of Christ. The Nicene Creed affirmed that Jesus Christ is "of the same essence" (homoousios) as the Father, but this was a formalization of beliefs that had already been held by many Christians, rather than an innovation.
   • The Council was attended by bishops from across the Christian world, including representatives from the East and West, demonstrating that the belief in the divinity of Christ was widespread and not limited to a particular region or faction.
7. Apostolic Succession:
   • The claim that the bishops at Nicaea had "worked their way up" contrary to early practices ignores the historical continuity of apostolic succession. Many of the bishops present at Nicaea could trace their ecclesiastical authority back to the apostles themselves, suggesting continuity rather than a break with early Christian traditions.

In summary, historical evidence from early Christian writings and church fathers before the 4th century supports the belief in Jesus as God the Son, contradicting the theory that this concept was a 4th-century development by an "Apostate Church."
1/2

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

In summary, historical evidence from early Christian writings and church fathers before the 4th century supports the belief in Jesus as God the Son, contradicting the theory that this concept was a 4th-century development by an "Apostate Church."

I have not studied the "Early Church Fathers", but one of my brethren did, and this is a summary fron the Slies from one of his lectures, showing the gradual Apostasy:

Clement of Rome (1st Century)
The Father alone is God; Jesus is the Son of God, born a mortal man, raised to immortality; the Holy Spirit is God’s power.

Ignatius of Antioch (1st Century)
The Father alone is God; Jesus is the Son of God, born a mortal man, raised to immortality ; the Holy Spirit is God’s power.

Polycarp of Smyrna (1st-2nd Century)
The Father alone is God; Jesus is the Son of God, born a mortal man, raised to immortality; the Holy Spirit is God’s power.

Papias of Hierapolis (1st-2nd Century)
The Father alone is God; Jesus is the Son of God, born a mortal man, raised to immortality; the Holy Spirit is God’s power.

Justin Martyr (2nd Century)
The Father alone is ‘true God’; Jesus is a pre-existent divine being created by God; the Holy Spirit is a type of angel

Irenaeus of Lyons (2nd Century)
The Father alone is ‘true God’; the Son and Holy Spirit are the divine ‘hands of God’, but not fully God in their own right

Tertullian (2nd-3rd Centuries)
Father, Son and Holy Spirit all share the same essence and co-exist equally as God, yet the Son was somehow ‘begotten’ by the Father and there was a time when he did not exist

Origen (2nd-3rd Centuries)
The Father alone is ‘very God’; the Son has always existed, being eternally ‘generated’ by Him; the Holy Spirit’s divinity is derived from the Son

Clement of Alexandria (2nd-3rd Centuries)
The Father alone is God; Jesus and the Holy Spirit are pre-existent divine beings created by Him

Arius (3rd-4th Centuries)
Jesus is the first of God’s creation; a pre-existent divine being

Athanasius (3rd-4th Centuries)
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equally God; Jesus was and still is, fully God and fully man

1st Council of Constantinople (AD 381)
Re-condemned Arianism, declared that Jesus is fully human yet simultaneously divine; also affirmed that the Holy Spirit is God.

Council of Chalcedon (AD 451)
Declared that Jesus has two natures (human and divine) but is only one person, without sin; also affirmed that Mary is the Mother of God.

Apostolic Succession:

• The claim that the bishops at Nicaea had "worked their way up" contrary to early practices ignores the historical continuity of apostolic succession. Many of the bishops present at Nicaea could trace their ecclesiastical authority back to the apostles themselves, suggesting continuity rather than a break with early Christian traditions.

Do Baptists believe in "Apostolic Succession"?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

I have not studied the "Early Church Fathers", but one of my brethren did, and this is a summary fron the Slies from one of his lectures, showing the gradual Apostasy:

Clement of Rome (1st Century)
The Father alone is God; Jesus is the Son of God, born a mortal man, raised to immortality; the Holy Spirit is God’s power.

Ignatius of Antioch (1st Century)
The Father alone is God; Jesus is the Son of God, born a mortal man, raised to immortality ; the Holy Spirit is God’s power.

Polycarp of Smyrna (1st-2nd Century)
The Father alone is God; Jesus is the Son of God, born a mortal man, raised to immortality; the Holy Spirit is God’s power.

Papias of Hierapolis (1st-2nd Century)
The Father alone is God; Jesus is the Son of God, born a mortal man, raised to immortality; the Holy Spirit is God’s power.

Justin Martyr (2nd Century)
The Father alone is ‘true God’; Jesus is a pre-existent divine being created by God; the Holy Spirit is a type of angel

Irenaeus of Lyons (2nd Century)
The Father alone is ‘true God’; the Son and Holy Spirit are the divine ‘hands of God’, but not fully God in their own right

Tertullian (2nd-3rd Centuries)
Father, Son and Holy Spirit all share the same essence and co-exist equally as God, yet the Son was somehow ‘begotten’ by the Father and there was a time when he did not exist

Origen (2nd-3rd Centuries)
The Father alone is ‘very God’; the Son has always existed, being eternally ‘generated’ by Him; the Holy Spirit’s divinity is derived from the Son

Clement of Alexandria (2nd-3rd Centuries)
The Father alone is God; Jesus and the Holy Spirit are pre-existent divine beings created by Him

Arius (3rd-4th Centuries)
Jesus is the first of God’s creation; a pre-existent divine being

Athanasius (3rd-4th Centuries)
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equally God; Jesus was and still is, fully God and fully man

1st Council of Constantinople (AD 381)
Re-condemned Arianism, declared that Jesus is fully human yet simultaneously divine; also affirmed that the Holy Spirit is God.

Council of Chalcedon (AD 451)
Declared that Jesus has two natures (human and divine) but is only one person, without sin; also affirmed that Mary is the Mother of God.


Do Baptists believe in "Apostolic Succession"?

Kind regards
Trevor

A summary? Without direct quotes I can verify were correctly cited in their context, your reply didn't address the facts given.

Moreover, the admission you didn't study the early church fathers to verify their beliefs, shows a shocking carelessness. This is too important, due diligence requires exhaustive verification of the facts.

We all must give a full account of ourselves, and what we said about others, to God.