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[_ Old Earth _] K/T boundary vs. a global flood

jwu

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The creataceous/tertiary boundary is usually set to 65.3 million years ago, and it marks the end of the dinosaurs.
800px-K-T_boundary_TLSP.jpg


This boundary is marked by a thin layer of sediments that are unusually rich in iridium. Typically iridium is much rarer than gold, but in this layer the concentration is twice that of gold.
iridium_abundances.gif

(Note the scale. The big part in the middle actually only makes up several thousand years, while the entire graph covers 25 million years.)

So...how would a single deluge that supposedly is responsible for the strata below and above this boundary form such a nice transition and a clear layer of iridium rich sediments all around the world?

Why would it gather so much iridium in a layer only a few inches thick while laying down hundreds of foot of sediments?
 
I really don't have an answer, i am no expert, but i like to expand my knowledge so i will attempt to question this.

Is iridium a metal ?
 
like i said before i am no expert so i don't know if my claim following has any ground.

Due to it not just being a metal, but heavy metal, would not there earths magnetic field have some effect on how this metal band formed.? partial separation from other rocks ?

Also could any metamorphic effect have created this band ?

Its a fact that the band exists..how did it get there then jwu ?
 
johnmuise said:
Due to it not just being a metal, but heavy metal, would not there earths magnetic field have some effect on how this metal band formed.? partial separation from other rocks ?
The earth's magnetic field is way too weak. We also should see similar things for other heavy metals then, but we don't.

Also could any metamorphic effect have created this band ?
No, there is no mechanism which would make the iridium atoms move through other strata to this place.

Its a fact that the band exists..how did it get there then jwu ?
It's most likely the result of the asteroid impact which killed off the dinosaurs. Iron asteroids are also rich in iridium. The asteroid vaporized and then the iridium dust settled down to the ground.
 
we have many craters why did it have to be the one that killed of the dinos *cough* why not any asteroid ?

while the earths magnetic field is weak now, maybe it was stronger but then ? i don't know just pitching questions here.
 
johnmuise said:
we have many craters why did it have to be the one that killed of the dinos *cough* why not any asteroid ?
It's exactly in the right place, and the dino killer asteroid was large enough to contain that much iridium.

while the earths magnetic field is weak now, maybe it was stronger but then ? i don't know just pitching questions here.
The magnetic field is wholly unable to form such layers, as it cannot influence individual atoms. Magnetism is a property of relatively large grains and clumps of a metal, not individual atoms.

Even if individual atoms could be magnetized, they would either be attracted or expelled - but not suspended in a place, against the currents, to be surrounded by sediments. And of course there is no reason why this should happen uniformly all around the world.
In short, magnetism is completely unsuitable as an explanation.

And, of course, if that had happened, then we should not only seen an iridium layer, but also layers of other metals, sorted by their magnetic properties. But iridium is the only layer there is.
 
It's exactly in the right place, and the dino killer asteroid was large enough to contain that much iridium.

We can't assume that the asteroid had that much iridium. why did not that same asteroid kill all the dinos ? why not everything ? it would change the environment drastically changed, influencing some super form of adaptation.

The magnetic field is wholly unable to form such layers, as it cannot influence individual atoms. Magnetism is a property of relatively large grains and clumps of a metal, not individual atoms.

Even if individual atoms could be magnetized, they would either be attracted or expelled - but not suspended in a place, against the currents, to be surrounded by sediments. And of course there is no reason why this should happen uniformly all around the world.
In short, magnetism is completely unsuitable as an explanation.

And, of course, if that had happened, then we should not only seen an iridium layer, but also layers of other metals, sorted by their magnetic properties. But iridium is the only layer there is.

Okay.
 
johnmuise said:
We can't assume that the asteroid had that much iridium.
Why not? Iridium doesn't appear out of thin air, and asteroids are known to be the primary source of it. Additionally, the chicxulub crater falls in the same age.

The amount of iridium that the asteroid would have to contain is roughly a cube with an edge lenght of 100ft. That's about 0.000004% of the volume of the asteroid (~6 miles diameter)

why did not that same asteroid kill all the dinos ? why not everything ?
I'm not sure if i understand you correctly...the impact crater clearly exists, so a huge impact did happen. Had it killed everything alive on earth, then we wouldn't be here to talk about it. Since we are here, it evidently did not kill everything.

it would change the environment drastically changed, influencing some super form of adaptation.
There is a limit to the speed of evolution (or adaptation, if you want to call it that way). The dinos apparently couldn't cope with the changes in their environment fast enough, but a bunch of species of small mammals could (small animals=short generations=potentially faster adaptation).
 
r we could assume the flood did it, but ....yeah.... :wink:
 
Man i lost this thread, lol

he impact theory first gained popularity in the 1980s. It was formulated as a result of new studies of the so-called “K-T extinction event.â€Â

To understand this theory, you need to understand the term extinction event. Whenever a number of organisms appear to be missing in a layer of rocks above another layer where they are found, evolutionary geologists call this an extinction event.

The most well-known extinction event is at the boundary between Cretaceous and Tertiary rocks. (Cretaceous rocks are indicated by a K to distinguish them from Cambrian rocks, which have a C abbreviation.) This boundary occurred 65 million years ago on the evolutionary time-scale, and dinosaurs appear only at the bottom on the Cretaceous side. Other animal species are not found above this boundary, including many marine reptiles and plants.

The father and son team of Luis and Walter Alvarez discovered that rocks from the K-T boundary have an unexpectedly high concentration of iridium. They assumed that this could not have come from earth because they assumed the earth was originally molten and any iridium would have sunk to the core after millions of years. The Alvarez team therefore suggested that this iridium came from a colliding asteroid.

In 1990, the supposed “smoking gun†of the impact theory was found. Formations at Chicxulub, Mexico, appeared to be the remnants of a very large impact crater.

Such a huge impact would have sent a large dust cloud into the atmosphere, blocking sunlight from the earth and causing some species to die out. In some variants of the theory, a comet rather than an asteroid caused the deadly impact.

But the theory has some problems. For example, some extremely light-sensitive species in the ocean did survive. Another problem is that the cloud would cause a long period of extreme cold, somewhat like the so-called “nuclear winter†that might follow the dropping of nuclear weapons.

A third problem is that there is too much iridium to fit with the theory. Although asteroids do have iridium in them, they do not normally spread out the iridium upon impact. (In other words, areas around impacts are not iridium-enriched.) In at least one case, the iridium would have taken half a million years to cover the earth, by evolutionary counting.

Far more likely is that the iridium enrichment came from volcanic activity, not outer space. Volcanoes do produce iridium and spread it out.

As a result of these and other problems, some evolutionary scientists do not accept the impact theory.

dino-kt-boundary-chart.jpg


Other Theories

If the impact theory is not correct, then how is the disappearance of dinosaurs to be explained? Some scientists have suggested that the world’s climate suddenly became too cold. Others have suggested that their numbers declined as dinosaurs ate each other. A few theories have been wacky, such as the suggestion that dinosaurs died out from a plague of indigestion.

There is another possibility, ignored in secular science journals. While the impact theory admits the possibility of a global catastrophe resulting from an asteroid or comet, the Bible describes a very different global catastrophe that could have caused the “K-T extinction eventâ€Ââ€â€the worldwide Flood of Genesis 6–9.

The Bible says that “all fountains of the great deep were broken up†(Genesis 7:11). The breakup of the earth’s crust would certainly have caused volcanoes on an unprecedented scale during the Flood, explaining the iridium in the K-T boundary. The bulk of the world’s fossils would have formed as a result of this catastrophe.

While pairs of every kind of dinosaur survived the Flood on board the Ark, it appears that their population never grew large in the new world. Like so many other kinds of animals, their small populations finally went extinct for a variety of reasons typical of many animals, including climate changes, diseases, decrease in food supply, and humans.

Starting with the Bible, it is easy to make sense of the mass kill of dinosaurs found in the fossil record.

Source: Paul Taylor graduated with his B.Sc. in chemistry from Nottingham University and his master’s in science education from Cardiff University. Paul taught science for 17 years in a state school but is now a proficient writer and speaker for Answers in Genesis–UK.
 
Research into collisions in the Asteroid Belt and the gravitational effects of Jupiter and Mars on the material resulting from those collisions have identified the Baptistina group as the most likely origin of not only the Chicxulub impact event, but also a series of impact events on Earth and the Moon peaking about 100 million years ago and continuing into more recent times. The Baptistina group formed about 160 million years ago as the result of a massive collision between two asteroids. The well-understood dynamics of orbital mechanics allow the scientists engaged in this research to express their conclusions with high levels of confidence.

Baptistina modelling inndependently supports dates for the Chicxulub and other impact events derived from other dating metrics. It is entirely possible that the Chicxulub impact and the catastrophic volcanic event whose remains are identfied as the Deccan Traps jointly contributed to the KT extinction event.

Sources:

http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2453
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v449/n7158/full/nature06070.html
http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cach...f+baptistina&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&client=safari
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6980468.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccan_Traps
http://filebox.vt.edu/artsci/geology/mclean/Dinosaur_Volcano_Extinction/pages/studentv.html
 
JohnMuise said:
But the theory has some problems. For example, some extremely light-sensitive species in the ocean did survive.
Sources? And even if so, it is not required that there be 100% lethality rate.

Another problem is that the cloud would cause a long period of extreme cold, somewhat like the so-called “nuclear winter†that might follow the dropping of nuclear weapons.
What exactly is the problem with this?

A third problem is that there is too much iridium to fit with the theory.
How much too much? A bit more specific please. Sources?

Although asteroids do have iridium in them, they do not normally spread out the iridium upon impact. (In other words, areas around impacts are not iridium-enriched.)
If they don't vaporize, that is...the chixculub impactor did vaporize.

In at least one case, the iridium would have taken half a million years to cover the earth, by evolutionary counting.
Source? Thanks for the admission that it should take a very long time to settle down ;)
How would it work any faster under water, where iridium should settle down even slower, due to the higher density of the water compared to air?
Note that the graph of my OP actually shows a distribution across several thousand years.

Far more likely is that the iridium enrichment came from volcanic activity, not outer space. Volcanoes do produce iridium and spread it out.
Whatever...i'd be fine with that too.
This doesn't affect the point of this thread, which is to point out that such a thin layer of iridium rich clay wouldn't form in a global deluge, uniformly across all the globe. The origin of the iridium is quite irrelevant to this, be it a asteroid, volcanoes and so on.

If the impact theory is not correct, then how is the disappearance of dinosaurs to be explained? Some scientists have suggested that the world’s climate suddenly became too cold. Others have suggested that their numbers declined as dinosaurs ate each other. A few theories have been wacky, such as the suggestion that dinosaurs died out from a plague of indigestion.

There is another possibility, ignored in secular science journals. While the impact theory admits the possibility of a global catastrophe resulting from an asteroid or comet, the Bible describes a very different global catastrophe that could have caused the “K-T extinction eventâ€Ââ€â€the worldwide Flood of Genesis 6–9.

The Bible says that “all fountains of the great deep were broken up†(Genesis 7:11). The breakup of the earth’s crust would certainly have caused volcanoes on an unprecedented scale during the Flood, explaining the iridium in the K-T boundary. The bulk of the world’s fossils would have formed as a result of this catastrophe.

While pairs of every kind of dinosaur survived the Flood on board the Ark, it appears that their population never grew large in the new world. Like so many other kinds of animals, their small populations finally went extinct for a variety of reasons typical of many animals, including climate changes, diseases, decrease in food supply, and humans.

Starting with the Bible, it is easy to make sense of the mass kill of dinosaurs found in the fossil record.

Source: Paul Taylor graduated with his B.Sc. in chemistry from Nottingham University and his master’s in science education from Cardiff University. Paul taught science for 17 years in a state school but is now a proficient writer and speaker for Answers in Genesis–UK.
This merely describes the creationists' scenario, it does not address the problems with it which i raised in this thread...it just plain ignores them.
 
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