"kai"

[justbyfaith]

I want to contend here that the Greek word for "and" in many places in scripture, is the Greek word "kai" which can be translated "even"

Thus, we have the following.

Jhn 17:3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, <even> Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Ti 1:2
Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father <even> Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 1:7, To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:3, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; <even> one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2Co 1:2, Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:1, Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, <even> God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Gal 1:3, Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, <even> from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2, Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23, Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phl 1:2, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:2, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 3:11, Now God himself and our Father, <even> our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

2Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:2, Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:16, Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, <even> God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2Ti 1:2, To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father <even> Christ Jesus our Lord.

Tit 1:4, To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Phm 1:3, Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:3, That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, <even> with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jo 2:22, Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father <even> the Son.

2Jo 1:3, Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

 

[justbyfaith]

I would suggest going to your Bible, and circling the word "and" in each one of these verses.

Then, when you read these verses, remember that "and" can in fact mean "even".

 

[justbyfaith]

Excellent point.

 

[justbyfaith]

Excellent point.

...if I do say so myself!

 

[justbyfaith]

An important thing to consider.

 

[Highway54]

I want to contend here that the Greek word for "and" in many places in scripture, is the Greek word "kai" which can be translated "even"

Thus, we have the following.

Jhn 17:3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, <even> Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Ti 1:2
Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father <even> Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 1:7, To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:3, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; <even> one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2Co 1:2, Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:1, Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, <even> God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Gal 1:3, Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, <even> from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2, Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23, Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phl 1:2, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:2, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 3:11, Now God himself and our Father, <even> our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

2Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:2, Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:16, Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, <even> God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2Ti 1:2, To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father <even> Christ Jesus our Lord.

Tit 1:4, To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Phm 1:3, Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:3, That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, <even> with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jo 2:22, Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father <even> the Son.

2Jo 1:3, Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Wow! One of the most used words in the Bible:

KJV Word Usage and Count and 8172 also 514 even 108 both 43 then 20 so 18 likewise 13 not tr. 348 miscellaneous 32 vr and 1

 

[Free]

I want to contend here that the Greek word for "and" in many places in scripture, is the Greek word "kai" which can be translated "even"

Thus, we have the following.

Jhn 17:3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, <even> Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Ti 1:2
Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father <even> Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 1:7, To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:3, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; <even> one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2Co 1:2, Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:1, Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, <even> God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Gal 1:3, Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, <even> from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2, Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23, Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phl 1:2, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:2, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 3:11, Now God himself and our Father, <even> our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

2Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:2, Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:16, Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, <even> God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2Ti 1:2, To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father <even> Christ Jesus our Lord.

Tit 1:4, To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Phm 1:3, Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:3, That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, <even> with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jo 2:22, Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father <even> the Son.

2Jo 1:3, Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Very inconsistently applied. You only changed the ones you wanted to change.

I would suggest going to your Bible, and circling the word "and" in each one of these verses.

Then, when you read these verses, remember that "and" can in fact mean "even".

It can mean any number of things. It's probably best to leave the translating to translators and relevant scholars who have the knowledge and experience.

 

[justbyfaith]

Very inconsistently applied. You only changed the ones you wanted to change.

I applied it to every verse that spoke of the Father and the Son, in order to show that the Father is even the Son.

 

[Free]

I applied it to every verse that spoke of the Father and the Son, in order to show that the Father is even the Son.

Which is an exegetical fallacy. But you still applied it inconsistently even within those verses. As I said, this is why we leave the translating to the experts.

 

[justbyfaith]

Which is an exegetical fallacy. But you still applied it inconsistently even within those verses. As I said, this is why we leave the translating to the experts.

Some people are narrow-eyed Pharisees and will never be able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Free]

Some people are narrow-eyed Pharisees and will never be able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I know. That’s too bad for them, but that’s what pride does.

 

[justbyfaith]

I know. That’s too bad for them, but that’s what pride does.

 

[justbyfaith]

Very inconsistently applied. You only changed the ones you wanted to change.

Which is an exegetical fallacy. But you still applied it inconsistently even within those verses. As I said, this is why we leave the translating to the experts.

To only use the verses that speak of the doctrine in question is not an exegetical fallacy.

I suppose that I could have related verses that do not apply to the doctrine in question, but what would be the point of that?

It is important when we are communicating that we be precise and to the point. To relate verses that do not apply to what I am talking about would be to be on a tangent and to not be communicating precisely.

And, btw, I did apply it consistently.

 

[Free]

To only use the verses that speak of the doctrine in question is not an exegetical fallacy.

It is, since you're using one definition out of many without any justification other than to suit your theology. Not to mention this results in the verses you've given being taken out of context. This is how it is translated in the NT:

"kai; a prim. conjunc.; and, even, also: — accompanied (1), actually (2), after (2), again (1), again *(1), along (4), also (535), although (1), although *(1), besides *(1), both (37), both *(1), certainly (1), continue (1), either (2), else (1), even (132), forty-six *(1), if (1), including (1), indeed (20), indeed *(2), just (3), likewise (1), more *(2), moving about freely *(1), nor (4), now (2), only (2), only *(1), or (11), same (1), so (30), than (2), than *(4), then (105), though (1), though *(6), together (1), too (34), until (1), very (3), well (13), when (7), whether (1), while (1), whose *(1), without *(4), yet (9)." (New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance)

From Strong's:

"Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet."

And, btw, I did apply it consistently.

No, you didn't.

Rom 1:7, To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:3, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; <even> one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2Co 1:2, Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:3, Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, <even> from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2, Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23, Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phl 1:2, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:2, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 3:11, Now God himself and our Father, <even> our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

2Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:2, Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:16, Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, <even> God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

Phm 1:3, Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:3, That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, <even> with his Son Jesus Christ.

2Jo 1:3, Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

That is a lot of inconsistency which you also cannot justify. Like I have stated, it's best to leave the translating to the relevant experts. Doing things like this is almost sure to lead one into error, or keep one in their error.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is, since you're using one definition out of many without any justification other than to suit your theology. Not to mention this results in the verses you've given being taken out of context. This is how it is translated in the NT:

"kai; a prim. conjunc.; and, even, also: — accompanied (1), actually (2), after (2), again (1), again *(1), along (4), also (535), although (1), although *(1), besides *(1), both (37), both *(1), certainly (1), continue (1), either (2), else (1), even (132), forty-six *(1), if (1), including (1), indeed (20), indeed *(2), just (3), likewise (1), more *(2), moving about freely *(1), nor (4), now (2), only (2), only *(1), or (11), same (1), so (30), than (2), than *(4), then (105), though (1), though *(6), together (1), too (34), until (1), very (3), well (13), when (7), whether (1), while (1), whose *(1), without *(4), yet (9)." (New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance)

From Strong's:

"Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet."


No, you didn't.

Rom 1:7, To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:3, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; <even> one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2Co 1:2, Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:3, Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, <even> from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2, Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23, Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phl 1:2, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:2, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 3:11, Now God himself and our Father, <even> our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

2Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:2, Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:16, Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, <even> God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

Phm 1:3, Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:3, That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, <even> with his Son Jesus Christ.

2Jo 1:3, Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

That is a lot of inconsistency which you also cannot justify. Like I have stated, it's best to leave the translating to the relevant experts. Doing things like this is almost sure to lead one into error, or keep one in their error.

Let me just say that I translated it as "even" in the most pertinent places in order to make a specific point.

Since there was no purpose for translating "and" as "even" in spots that did not pertain to the point in question, I simply refrained from doing so.

But it should be clear that the point that I am making is that "and" can be translated "even" (not that it must always be translated as "even") and that therefore it opens up a new understanding to you as you consider how the word "and" / "even" applies to the members of the Godhead.

 

[Free]

Let me just say that I translated it as "even" in the most pertinent places in order to make a specific point.

Since there was no purpose for translating "and" as "even" in spots that did not pertain to the point in question, I simply refrained from doing so.

But it is arbitrary and that is a problem.

But it should be clear that the point that I am making is that "and" can be translated "even" (not that it must always be translated as "even") and that therefore it opens up a new understanding to you as you consider how the word "and" / "even" applies to the members of the Godhead.

And my point is that that is not at all the case. It is fallacious to just choose a definition to fit your theology, especially since translating those verses is out of context with what the NT states as a whole, which is one reason why no translation likely has that definition in those verses. Translation simply doesn’t work that way.

 

[justbyfaith]

But it is arbitrary and that is a problem.


And my point is that that is not at all the case. It is fallacious to just choose a definition to fit your theology, especially since translating those verses is out of context with what the NT states as a whole, which is one reason why no translation likely has that definition in those verses. Translation simply doesn’t work that way.

But it doesn't disagree with what scripture says as a whole.

Consider.

There is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

And Jesus is that one Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord (1 Corinthians 12:5, 2 Corinthians 8:19).

Question:

In light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18, can you say that Jesus is the Lord?

If not, then you don't have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3)...

And therefore do not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9).

So, here is the statement:

I confess that Jesus is the Lord in light of what it says in Ephesians 4:5; Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18.

YES

NO

Put a check mark (or an "x") by the one that you subscribe to.

 

[Free]

But it doesn't disagree with what scripture says as a whole.

Yes, it certainly does.

Consider.

There is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

And Jesus is that one Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord (1 Corinthians 12:5, 2 Corinthians 8:19).

Question:

In light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18, can you say that Jesus is the Lord?

If not, then you don't have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3)...

And therefore do not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9).

So, here is the statement:

I confess that Jesus is the Lord in light of what it says in Ephesians 4:5; Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18.

YES

NO

Put a check mark (or an "x") by the one that you subscribe to.

Of course I confess that Jesus is Lord. What kind of question is that?

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, it certainly does.


Of course I confess that Jesus is Lord. What kind of question is that?

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

In light of this fact, do you still confess that Jesus Christ is "the" Lord (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv))?

 

[Free]

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

What do you mean by “even the Father”?

In light of this fact, do you still confess that Jesus Christ is "the" Lord (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv))?

You’re making much ado about nothing—“the” isn’t in the Greek.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/12.htm