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"kai"

Free said:
What do you mean by “even the Father”?


You’re making much ado about nothing—“the” isn’t in the Greek.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/12.htm
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Even though "the" isn't i the Greek, it is in the kjv...and that means something; because God preserved His unadulterated word in the English in our authorized, king james version...for the original autographs have been lost to us (and therefore you cannot be absolutely that "the" isn't in the Greek...it may have even been restored in the kjv as a Holy Spirit inducted translation.

But even if "the" isn't in the Greek; and even if the kjv is invalid; and even if no one can say that "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Ghost...it should be clear that there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); so if Jesus is Lord, then He is "the" one Lord.

And what I mean by, even the Father, is made clear by the scriptures that I have referenced.

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5), that is, the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18). In that there is one Lord and the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth, it means that the Father is the one Lord.

Now, can you confess that Jesus is the one Lord in light of this information?
 
justbyfaith said:
Even though "the" isn't i the Greek, it is in the kjv...and that means something; because God preserved His unadulterated word in the English in our authorized, king james version...for the original autographs have been lost to us (and therefore you cannot be absolutely that "the" isn't in the Greek...it may have even been restored in the kjv as a Holy Spirit inducted translation.
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Not even the KJV translators believed that.

As for the topic, I have shown the serious problems with it and why we leave the translating to relevant experts.
 
justbyfaith said:
I want to contend here that the Greek word for "and" in many places in scripture, is the Greek word "kai" which can be translated "even"

Thus, we have the following.

Jhn 17:3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, <even> Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Ti 1:2
Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father <even> Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 1:7, To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:3, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; <even> one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2Co 1:2, Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:1, Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, <even> God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Gal 1:3, Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, <even> from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2, Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23, Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phl 1:2, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:2, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 3:11, Now God himself and our Father, <even> our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

2Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:2, Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:16, Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, <even> God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2Ti 1:2, To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father <even> Christ Jesus our Lord.

Tit 1:4, To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Phm 1:3, Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:3, That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, <even> with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jo 2:22, Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father <even> the Son.

2Jo 1:3, Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
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Hi J
You know me, I'm not getting involved in a discussion about a word.
I'll just say that EVEN does not mean what you think it does, as in English it means a different thing or person. In other words 2 of something.

I LIKE TO GO TO THE CAFE AND EVEN TO THE THEATER.

In John 17:3 it means THE ONE TRUE GOD AND HIM WHOM YOU HAVE SENT, JESUS CHRIST.

The word EVEN usually means ESPECIALLY....
Not ALSO.
 
justbyfaith said:
Even though "the" isn't i the Greek, it is in the kjv...and that means something; because God preserved His unadulterated word in the English in our authorized, king james version...for the original autographs have been lost to us (and therefore you cannot be absolutely that "the" isn't in the Greek...it may have even been restored in the kjv as a Holy Spirit inducted translation.

But even if "the" isn't in the Greek; and even if the kjv is invalid; and even if no one can say that "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Ghost...it should be clear that there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); so if Jesus is Lord, then He is "the" one Lord.

And what I mean by, even the Father, is made clear by the scriptures that I have referenced.

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5), that is, the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18). In that there is one Lord and the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth, it means that the Father is the one Lord.

Now, can you confess that Jesus is the one Lord in light of this information?
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There are 2 lords in scripture.

One is the Father in the OT and should be written as LORD.

The other is Jesus and should be written as Lord.

Also, you're asking Free if he believes in the one Lord.
What does this question imply?

Jesus is Lord
Not LORD
 
justbyfaith said:
I want to contend here that the Greek word for "and" in many places in scripture, is the Greek word "kai" which can be translated "even"

Thus, we have the following.

Jhn 17:3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, <even> Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Ti 1:2
Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father <even> Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 1:7, To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:3, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; <even> one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2Co 1:2, Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:1, Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, <even> God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Gal 1:3, Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, <even> from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2, Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23, Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phl 1:2, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:2, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 3:11, Now God himself and our Father, <even> our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

2Th 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:2, Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:16, Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, <even> God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2Ti 1:2, To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father <even> Christ Jesus our Lord.

Tit 1:4, To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Phm 1:3, Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:3, That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, <even> with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jo 2:22, Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father <even> the Son.

2Jo 1:3, Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, <even> from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
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Hi justbyfaith

Personally, I'm not clear on the difference between translating the Greek as 'and' over 'even'. Both are words to infer separation or difference from the subject phrases.

How do you see:
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.
Has some different meaning than using 'and' in the phrase?

God bless,
Ted
 
justbyfaith said:
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother,
To Philemon our beloved friend and fellow laborer, to the beloved Apphia, Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Philemon 1:1-3



Is Paul and Timothy the same person?




JLB
 
wondering said:
One is the Father in the OT and should be written as LORD.

The other is Jesus and should be written as Lord.
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The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1



LORD here refers to Jesus Christ the Son.


“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10


Everywhere in the Old Testament that a prophet says thus says the LORD, it is Jesus Christ the LORD speaking through them.


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11




JLB
 
justbyfaith said:
There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

In light of this fact, do you still confess that Jesus Christ is "the" Lord (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv))?
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I do hope you are not questing Free if he confesses that Jesus is Lord.

Please explain why you have said this because if this is what you meant you are in violation of the ToS 1.4.
 
miamited said:
Hi justbyfaith

Personally, I'm not clear on the difference between translating the Greek as 'and' over 'even'. Both are words to infer separation or difference from the subject phrases.

How do you see:
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father <even> the Lord Jesus Christ.
Has some different meaning than using 'and' in the phrase?

God bless,
Ted
Click to expand...
In that the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh;

While the Son, being God, is that same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4) dwelling in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
 
for_his_glory said:
I do hope you are not questing Free if he confesses that Jesus is Lord.

Please explain why you have said this because if this is what you meant you are in violation of the ToS 1.4.
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1.4: Do not misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith. (Exodus 20:16).

How is what I said a violation of the rule?

I am certain that Free believes that Jesus is the Lord;

But my question to him is, Does he believe it in light of the fact that scripture teaches that the Father is the one Lord of holy scripture?
 
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Father and His Son Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirt are all coequal being that of the Spirit that is God.

I see this whole post as foolishness over one word that carries so many different meanings. It's not about one word, but that of the full context that one word is used in. It's almost like you are trying to get into a debate about the Trinity, but coming at it in another way by using the word "and" an "even".
 
for_his_glory said:
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Father and His Son Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirt are all coequal being that of the Spirit that is God.

I see this whole post as foolishness over one word that carries so many different meanings. It's not about one word, but that of the full context that one word is used in. It's almost like you are trying to get into a debate about the Trinity, but coming at it in another way by using the word "and" an "even".
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That is a major aspect of the doctrine of "kai" (the true Trinity).

I will only say the following in obedience to Titus 2:1 (kjv)...

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (John 4:24; Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6); the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9 (khv)), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33; John 8:24), and the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27).

There are not nine members in the Trinity.

However, we are to look at Ephesians 4:4-6 and 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 in light of this information.
 
justbyfaith said:
1.4: Do not misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith. (Exodus 20:16).

How is what I said a violation of the rule?

I am certain that Free believes that Jesus is the Lord;

But my question to him is, Does he believe it in light of the fact that scripture teaches that the Father is the one Lord of holy scripture?
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It's just in the way you asked Free like you were questing if he confesses Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Thank you for clarifying this for me.
 
I fail to see the difference between the use of "and" or "even" in the OP.
To an English speaker they read the same either way.
Maybe there is a difference in American.
Could anyone point out the difference?
 
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