"kai"

[Free]

I fail to see the difference between the use of "and" or "even" in the OP.
To an English speaker they read the same either way.
Maybe there is a difference in American.
Could anyone point out the difference?

There are many definitions of "even," one of which the OP is appealing to in order to try and substantiate his belief that Jesus is the Father who became the Son and the Holy Spirit, who both then entered eternity, creating the Trinity. It's a Oneness theology attempt to create a Trinity, for some reason.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/even

Note under its use as an adverb: "d --> used as an intensive to emphasize the identity or character of something"

In all fairness to you, it is hardly ever used this way.

 

[miamited]

In that the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh;

While the Son, being God, is that same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4) dwelling in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

HI justbyfaith

yes, I get that. But the question was how 'even' or 'and' seems to make that distinction in your thinking. Your entire position seems to be, and correct me if I'm wrong, that if we translate the greek to 'even' rather than 'and' that it makes some kind of difference in the meaning of the text. I don't see that. But yes, I agree that it is the Spirit that makes all of us one, just as Jesus explained in his prayer for all of us.

God bless,
Ted

 

[justbyfaith]

There are many definitions of "even," one of which the OP is appealing to in order to try and substantiate his belief that Jesus is the Father who became the Son and the Holy Spirit, who both then entered eternity, creating the Trinity.

More accurately, that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord; which is a biblical concept (and which is even established in the Trinitarian creeds).

And my understanding of the Trinity is based on years of reading my Bible with the concept of the Trinity on the backburner of my thinking.

 

[justbyfaith]

HI justbyfaith

yes, I get that. But the question was how 'even' or 'and' seems to make that distinction in your thinking. Your entire position seems to be, and correct me if I'm wrong, that if we translate the greek to 'even' rather than 'and' that it makes some kind of difference in the meaning of the text. I don't see that. But yes, I agree that it is the Spirit that makes all of us one, just as Jesus explained in his prayer for all of us.

God bless,
Ted

Applying it as "even" between the Father and the Son, makes them distinct rather than separate; even as is substantiated by the creeds and the teaching of holy scripture.

 

[Free]

More accurately, that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord; which is a biblical concept (and which is even established in the Trinitarian creeds).

They are each fully and truly Lord and God in and of themselves, as is the Holy Spirit, having always existed and never having not existed as three distinct persons, yet they are one Lord and God. That is true Trinitarianism. You are trying to combine Oneness theology and Trinitarianism, but the two are completely incompatible; it does not and cannot work.

And my understanding of the Trinity is based on years of reading my Bible with the concept of the Trinity on the backburner of my thinking.

And, yet, it is not the Trinity of the Bible nor the Creeds, but one of your own making, as you have stated in previous discussions. How long one has read their Bible is not relevant as to the truth of a matter.

 

[justbyfaith]

They are each fully and truly Lord and God in and of themselves, as is the Holy Spirit, having always existed and never having not existed as three distinct persons, yet they are one Lord and God. That is true Trinitarianism.

Yes; and according to that definition, I believe in true Trinitarianism. You don't.

Because in saying that

"the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost",

you separate them into being three Lords.

If they are distinct from each other and yet one, in that they are the same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4), then they can be three distinct Persons and yet one Lord.

But if they are separate spirits, as you seem to want to think, then there is either more than one Spirit who is God; which is contrary to scripture (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4); or else one of them isn't God; because there is one Spirit who is God, and if the Son be a separate Spirit from the Father; or even distinct as another Spirit, then, if the Father be God, the Son cannot be God; because there is one Spirit who is God (again, John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4). But if both Jesus and the Father be God, then Jesus, being God, is a Spirit (John 4:24); and since there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4), He would have to be the same Spirit s the Father, if He be God.

You are trying to combine Oneness theology and Trinitarianism, but the two are completely incompatible; it does not and cannot work.

The concept of the Trinity is not incompatible with the concept that God is one. If it were, it would be incompatible with scripture (see James 2:19). And the doctrine itself is that God is three-in-one.

And, yet, it is not the Trinity of the Bible nor the Creeds, but one of your own making, as you have stated in previous discussions. How long one has read their Bible is not relevant as to the truth of a matter.

I got my understanding straight from my reading of the Bible. I came up with the doctrine as the result of reading the Bible and in response to mormon doctrine as it has infiltrated the church.

 

[Free]

Yes; and according to that definition, I believe in true Trinitarianism. You don't.

Because in saying that

"the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost",

you separate them into being three Lords.

If they are distinct from each other and yet one, in that they are the same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4), then they can be three distinct Persons and yet one Lord.

But if they are separate spirits, as you seem to want to think, then there is either more than one Spirit who is God; which is contrary to scripture (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4); or else one of them isn't God; because there is one Spirit who is God, and if the Son be a separate Spirit from the Father; or even distinct as another Spirit, then, if the Father be God, the Son cannot be God; because there is one Spirit who is God (again, John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4). But if both Jesus and the Father be God, then Jesus, being God, is a Spirit (John 4:24); and since there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4), He would have to be the same Spirit s the Father, if He be God.



The concept of the Trinity is not incompatible with the concept that God is one. If it were, it would be incompatible with scripture (see James 2:19). And the doctrine itself is that God is three-in-one.


I got my understanding straight from my reading of the Bible. I came up with the doctrine as the result of reading the Bible and in response to mormon doctrine as it has infiltrated the church.

Note the contradiction: "I believe in true Trinitarianism," yet, "I came up with the doctrine." Therefore, you are the only "true Trinitarian" in the world. Congratulations.

You do not believe in the Trinity of the creeds, which is the Trinity of the Bible and the true Trinity, as it disagrees with what you admit is your own doctrine. You are forcing the Oneness unitarian view of God onto the Trinity and it will never, ever work.

I'm not going to discuss the Trinity beyond this, as this is not the topic of this thread and there other threads out there about the Trinity already. We've been over this stuff too many times and you'll never convince me that your position is biblical and in agreement with the creeds.

 

[justbyfaith]

Note the contradiction: "I believe in true Trinitarianism," yet, "I came up with the doctrine." Therefore, you are the only "true Trinitarian" in the world. Congratulations.

You do not believe in the Trinity of the creeds, which is the Trinity of the Bible and the true Trinity, as it disagrees with what you admit is your own doctrine. You are forcing the Oneness unitarian view of God onto the Trinity and it will never, ever work.

I'm not going to discuss the Trinity beyond this, as this is not the topic of this thread and there other threads out there about the Trinity already. We've been over this stuff too many times and you'll never convince me that your position is biblical and in agreement with the creeds.

I'm sorry for you; because the truth has been clearly portrayed in front of you; and therefore, since you continue to reject it, I can only refer you to Hebrews 3:7-8, Hebrews 3:15, and Hebrews 4:7.

When I say that I came up with the doctrine, I am saying that I interpolated it from an extensive reading of the Bible.

I don't think that I am the only "true Trinitarian" in the world. I have prayed that the word as it goes forth from me on this issue may have free course and be glorified, even as it is with me.

And I think that the Oneness Pentecostals came up with it long before I did. They may have even been hiding their understanding of the distinctness between the members of the Godhead all of these years.

But I want to make it clear to you that according to scripture, God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).

Not 1/3 of God;

And not a 2nd God.

God.

The Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)).

 

[Free]

I'm sorry for you; because the truth has been clearly portrayed in front of you; and therefore, since you continue to reject it, I can only refer you to Hebrews 3:7-8, Hebrews 3:15, and Hebrews 4:7.

Good passages that don't apply in this instance, to me anyway.

When I say that I came up with the doctrine, I am saying that I interpolated it from an extensive reading of the Bible.

I know exactly what you meant.

I don't think that I am the only "true Trinitarian" in the world. I have prayed that the word as it goes forth from me on this issue may have free course and be glorified, even as it is with me.

And I think that the Oneness Pentecostals came up with it long before I did. They may have even been hiding their understanding of the distinctness between the members of the Godhead all of these years.

No chance that Oneness Pentecostals came up with that. They are called Oneness for a reason--because they aren't Trinitarian in any way whatsoever, they're "Coexistent or Concurrent Modalists" with a unitarian view of God.

But I want to make it clear to you that according to scripture, God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).

This has no any bearing on what I or Trinitarians believe.

Not 1/3 of God;

And not a 2nd God.

Which neither I nor Trinitarians believe.

The Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)).

And here is the crux of the matter and why your Trinitarianism simply cannot be true. This is a unitarian view of God that is, at heart, antithetical to the biblical Trinity. Ontologically, your God is only one person (the Father); the biblical God, the biblical Trinity, is ontologically three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).

 

[justbyfaith]

I give up. Your blood be on your own head.

 

[Free]

I give up. Your blood be on your own head.

Well, we’ll be held accountable for the things we teach and corrected where we were wrong. The difference between us is that I have over 1,500 years of Christian history and thousands upon thousands of theologians, scholars, and lay people on my side, and I can all but guarantee you are the only one who believes as you do. Of course, that doesn’t mean I’m right, but it all does happen to agree with my own study.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, we’ll be held accountable for the things we teach and corrected where we were wrong. The difference between us is that I have over 1,500 years of Christian history and thousands upon thousands of theologians, scholars, and lay people on my side, and I can all but guarantee you are the only one who believes as you do. Of course, that doesn’t mean I’m right, but it all does happen to agree with my own study.

I have the reality that I have the Holy Ghost as the result of being baptized in Jesus' Name, on my side; as well as the fact that I studied scripture to obtain my theology and there is nothing in the scriptures that contradict or refute it.

1Jo 2:20, But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

 

[miamited]

Applying it as "even" between the Father and the Son, makes them distinct rather than separate; even as is substantiated by the creeds and the teaching of holy scripture.

Hi justbyfaith

'Distinct' rather than 'separate'. Ok.

God bless,
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1



LORD here refers to Jesus Christ the Son.


“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10


Everywhere in the Old Testament that a prophet says thus says the LORD, it is Jesus Christ the LORD speaking through them.


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11




JLB

The way I was taught would make the first verses of Zecharia 12 be God Father speaking. LORD.

When we get to the verse about piercing, it is clearly speaking about Jesus, but throughout these verses it is Father speaking.

I'm going to post some links which I know you don't need...
but just to show you how I understand the words Lord lord and LORD.

LORD and Lord: What's the Difference?

Why does the title "lord" appear in two formats in the Old Testament, i.e., LORD and Lord?

christiancourier.com

What is the difference between lord, Lord and LORD? | AHRC

The word

www.ancient-hebrew.org

 

[justbyfaith]

"Lord"...as referring to the Father...Jehovah / YHWH (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

Note that this is "Lord"...not "LORD".

 

[GodsGrace]

"Lord"...as referring to the Father...Jehovah / YHWH (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

Note that this is "Lord"...not "LORD".

Agreed.

Note that in the OT it sometimes says
Lord God


In this case Lord is a title.
Instead LORD is used in place of the name of God.

I'm sure you know that the Hebrew language had different names for God.

 

[JLB]

The way I was taught would make the first verses of Zecharia 12 be God Father speaking. LORD.

Let's examine that.

We know from 1 Peter 1:10-11 that the Spirit of Christ, spoke through the Old Testament prophets.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

Whenever a prophet spoke saying "thus says the LORD" it was the Spirit of Christ testifying.

Not God the Father.

Futhermore the specific language used in Zechariah 12:1 is attributed to the work of the Son as the One who created all things.

Let's compare Zechariah 12:1 and Hebrews 1:8-10 to specifically indentify the common language .


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

compare with --

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10



JLB

 

[justbyfaith]

it was the Spirit of Christ testifying.

Not God the Father.

The Spirit of Christ is God the Father (John 14:7-11).