Killing / Wars ?

[lianna7]

I have a question , when God said in Genesis 9: 6>>>"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.
Now that seems so straight forward and yet in the Old Testement look at all the wars and killings. So it still is today ...but what bothers me is God did not put a stipulation in there that said , its ok to kill as long as it's in war. Then Jesus said in Matthew 5 : 44 thru 48.>>>> "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that ? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. If we are to be Christ like , should we not do and be as Jesus taught . To me it seems as though he is saying not to hate , but in war we kill so isn't that the opposite of what Jesus tauhgt. ? This has always bothered me because even in the 10 commadments it says thou shall not kill. So if you kill someone deliberatley with the knowledge that you are going to isn't that murder for all parties involed . ? Will those who kill others even in war time be judge by God for killing other men. ?

 

[Rick W]

I believe scripture is speaking of murder. Murder is a crime where charges are brought against an individual accused in a court of law or in our case in the judgement of God. To be accused of murder one must do so on his/her own accord with intent. Which by the way is against the law.

As God judged Israel as a whole, as a nation or as a people, there was first a divine judgement which was brought against the whole of Israel. Israel stood accused depending on the transgression. That judgement was not against any one individual other than, in some cases, the higher authority or the rulers of the nation.

A soldier doing his duty can't be judged as an individual while serving his country for good or bad otherwise Joshua and each of his men could be accused and judged of murder in a black and white interpretation of "Thou shalt not kill". While the country as a whole may be judged I don't believe the individual soldier can be held accountable in view of the commandment to follow the authority of the land. Of course as an individual a person may bear tribulation living in the country so judged by God but again the crime of murder would not be held against that individual.

 

[lianna7]

Potluck,
I have always had a hard time with the thou shall not kill thing . It just seems to me that so many have been killed in war. Don't get me wrong Im not trying to say I think our troops are murderes , my own son is in the military and has been in both Afganistan and Iraq. I just worry because I think in the end someone has to be responsible for killing another human being. In this case it's our government that sends our men and women to fight as it is the other countries rulers and or government that sends them to fight against us. I know that each side has to either kill or be killed . I do believe though that killing another is wrong , but wars and killing have been going on since people were put on this earth and will not stop. As you say maybe the government or the nation as a whole may be judeged , but ultmately judgement will be God's. I remember when Cain killed Able and God did not kill him for his crime but he was punised . Same thing with Moses he killed an Egiptian because of the way he was treating the hebrew people . In both cases though I think that would constitute as murder there. Many will probably disagree with me on those 2 examples , but the reasons they killed were not to protect themselves or their country . Then again the laws were not put into place at that time either. Now when the laws were given to Moses's they were tough laws. A child who was disobedient to his parents was to be stoned to death, adulters the same thing . Granted laws have changed as times passed , but did you ever wonder what it would be like if those laws were still in place. I bet alot of things would be thought about before a person did something the laws prohibited.

 

[Bryce]

I believe scripture is speaking of murder. Murder is a crime where charges are brought against an individual accused in a court of law or in our case in the judgement of God. To be accused of murder one must do so on his/her own accord with intent. Which by the way is against the law.

As God judged Israel as a whole, as a nation or as a people, there was first a divine judgement which was brought against the whole of Israel. Israel stood accused depending on the transgression. That judgement was not against any one individual other than, in some cases, the higher authority or the rulers of the nation.

A soldier doing his duty can't be judged as an individual while serving his country for good or bad otherwise Joshua and each of his men could be accused and judged of murder in a black and white interpretation of "Thou shalt not kill". While the country as a whole may be judged I don't believe the individual soldier can be held accountable in view of the commandment to follow the authority of the land. Of course as an individual a person may bear tribulation living in the country so judged by God but again the crime of murder would not be held against that individual.

Well said and thank you, I was curious about this also since I'm joining the military in 2 years :roll:

 

[Rick W]

Im not trying to say I think our troops are murderes

If the commandment is to viewed as black and white, either/or, as some want to believe then those who view the commandment in that manner do indeed charge or accuse each soldier with murder.

I think in the end someone has to be responsible for killing another human being.

Yes, of course. If the government of a country had not ordered military action then I'm quite sure a soldier wouldn't be there in the first place. It wasn't his/her decision to go into battle. The individual soldier doesn't declare war. Nor can he. This is why I believe the nation as a whole or the authorities thereof would be held responsible if indeed the accusation of murder was to be levied and thereby judged.

 

[John]

I had this question before as well.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=31780

 

[turnorburn]

Don't feel alone God feels as you do, in the Old Testament God told his people to eliminate an entire generation from a certain tribe when the children of Israel knew better, they thumbed their noses at the almighty the same way people do today and refused to carry out his commands. If they would have listened none of what your seeing today would be happening, like the saying I'm sure you've heard, "Father Knows Best" Now we do the same we don't listen do we now? :smt009

Potluck,
I have always had a hard time with the thou shall not kill thing . It just seems to me that so many have been killed in war. Don't get me wrong Im not trying to say I think our troops are murderes , my own son is in the military and has been in both Afganistan and Iraq. I just worry because I think in the end someone has to be responsible for killing another human being. In this case it's our government that sends our men and women to fight as it is the other countries rulers and or government that sends them to fight against us. I know that each side has to either kill or be killed . I do believe though that killing another is wrong , but wars and killing have been going on since people were put on this earth and will not stop. As you say maybe the government or the nation as a whole may be judeged , but ultmately judgement will be God's. I remember when Cain killed Able and God did not kill him for his crime but he was punised . Same thing with Moses he killed an Egiptian because of the way he was treating the hebrew people . In both cases though I think that would constitute as murder there. Many will probably disagree with me on those 2 examples , but the reasons they killed were not to protect themselves or their country . Then again the laws were not put into place at that time either. Now when the laws were given to Moses's they were tough laws. A child who was disobedient to his parents was to be stoned to death, adulters the same thing . Granted laws have changed as times passed , but did you ever wonder what it would be like if those laws were still in place. I bet alot of things would be thought about before a person did something the laws prohibited.

 

[lianna7]

This topic is like walking a fine line , because there are varying opinions on killing as in war . I decided to take just 5 Wars that have been fought and add up those who were killed , in all there were, 65, 337 , 711 and then of course I did not count the missing in action. Also I didn't count the 2 wars being fought now because they are far from being over Im afraid. Thats alot of lives and that just represents the ones killed on our side , our solders. It saddens me that so many lives have been lost and still are being lost ...I guess we must wait for the Lord to come before this killing is all over . Then on judgement day we will find out where God stands on the subject.

I want to make myself clear on one point I realize that our troops must obey orders or they will be court marshalled and be sent to prison. So I don't hold then in regard as murderers. It's to bad that the leaders of the countries can't just fight each other instaed of haveing to send men and women to do it.

TO Bryce , you said you were joining the military in 2 years ...I truly hope the wars that are being fought now will be over by then. If not go with God and may he watch and keep you safe.

 

[John]

Yeah and i am already in the army and it looks like i a going across the pond to Afghanistan town come January for a 6 month contract. So its good to have a standing on the hole killing/bible thing.

 

[Veritas]

It is a thin line. ...and probably something that only God can judge for each combatant in every unique situation they've found themselves in over the history of the world. But I do know this, I know that you (john) and many other soldiers are putting your life on the line to protect me and our loved ones. And for this I am very thankful to you. ......

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13

 

[Vic C.]

Potluck is correct. The context is murder, not killing.

To get to the point, the proper interpretation of Exo 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill.", should read "murder". Killing isn't always a premeditated act. Killing someone could be by accident, self-defense, etc. Murder is usually premeditated and shows a complete lack of respect for a human life. The killing is done with malice and a lack of remorse.

I usually do not view war and capital punishment in this light.

 

[Vic C.]

It is a thin line. ...and probably something that only God can judge for each combatant in every unique situation they've found themselves in over the history of the world. But I do know this, I know that you (john) and many other soldiers are putting your life on the line to protect me and our loved ones. And for this I am very thankful to you. ......

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13

:smt038 :smt038 :smt038 :smt038 :smt038

 

[RadicalReformer]

Are we not a New Testament Church? As such as we not bound by the teachings of Christ?

He says to "Love thy enemies"... pretty straight forward.

I also believe that Christ said to "But down thy sword"... and the tanks, the missiles, the guns....

 

[RadicalReformer]

Potluck is correct. The context is murder, not killing.

To get to the point, the proper interpretation of Exo 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill.", should read "murder". Killing isn't always a premeditated act. Killing someone could be by accident, self-defense, etc. Murder is usually premeditated and shows a complete lack of respect for a human life. The killing is done with malice and a lack of remorse.

I usually do not view war and capital punishment in this light.

Does not war require pre-meditations? Isn't the War on Iraq based on the idea of "preemptive strike"?

How many millions of innocent lives have been affected by the savagery of war - and you claim that war doesn't show a complete lack of respect for human life?

 

[lianna7]

johnmuise
I know you will do your duty for your country , as my son is doing he never thought when he joined he'd be in a war . Just wanted to say be careful come back safe .

 

[lianna7]

Hi Vic ,
Yes Jesus did say that and he laid down his life for his fellow man and woman. He aslo said on the sermon on the mount....Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

Now if all governments and rulers could be like that then no ones father , son , husband , mother , wife , or sister would ever have to be placed in harms way.

 

[John]

Yes but is it laying down your life for others, or for greedy governments, lol :wink:

 

[Vic C.]

Does not war require pre-meditations? Isn't the War on Iraq based on the idea of "preemptive strike"?

How many millions of innocent lives have been affected by the savagery of war - and you claim that war doesn't show a complete lack of respect for human life?

I'm not going to argue with you Scott. You are trying to live out an idealistic world when the Lord placed us into a realistic one. You show no gratitude for those who gave their life so that you may live and worship as you do in this country of the USA. Why do you consistently bite the hand that feeds you?

Please don't turn this into another one of your righteous arguments. Leanna is expressing legit concerns and even has a son in service. If you disrespect my opinions, at least have some compassion for her and her dilemma.

 

[RadicalReformer]

I would suggest that I am trying to live out the Sermon on the Mount and the teachings of Christ.

 

[Veritas]

Yes but is it laying down your life for others, or for greedy governments, lol

Well, technically, over here, we the people, are the government too. ...but yes, I guess I'm probably greedy at times too. : :wink: