Killing / Wars ?

[RadicalReformer]

Also, I do not appreciate the tone , Vic. You are correct - there is a legitimate concern.

 

[RadicalReformer]

Just because I disagree with military service, does not mean that I disrespect those that join.

At the same time that does not mean that I will be quiet about my Christian faith and witness to peaceful living and Christ's call to peace.

We have been removed from the kingdom of darkness and have been transfered into the Kingdom of God. The appropriate question, and hard question, is where does state-sponsored military lie?

 

[Veritas]

We have been removed from the kingdom of darkness and have been transfered into the Kingdom of God. The appropriate question, and hard question, is where does state-sponsored military lie?

It is a hard question, I don't think war and killing is the best way to go either. But, as we've talked about before, I do think it's a form of tough love and protection (protection comes from caring and caring comes from love). Now I think entire governments can be in the right or wrong, I also think things can get quite muddy and grey, but even so, I believe soldiers can still be upright within that with the intent of protecting themselves and others. I view state-sponsored military almost as a police force. Do you think the police force is wrong as well?

 

[RadicalReformer]

Wrong for who?

The question here is what responsibility does the 'state' have under the economy of God?

The state has a responsibility to maintain order - to reign in lawlessness. I would suggest that this is the the state is the God ordained method to restrain evil. However, as a believer - the question is what is my responsibility? Am I to be an agent used by the state to reign in and maintain order, or am I to be an agent of the Kingdom of God to be a city on the hill, to be a guide to those in lawlessness to become reconcilled with God...

I would suggest that the two are not compatible, because by the nature of the state, it must use violence to restrain violence.

Isn't it somewhat ironic that we kill in war to punish those who killed us? It is like hitting a child to punish him for hitting someone else!?!

 

[Veritas]

Wrong for who?

The question here is what responsibility does the 'state' have under the economy of God?

The state has a responsibility to maintain order - to reign in lawlessness. I would suggest that this is the the state is the God ordained method to restrain evil. However, as a believer - the question is what is my responsibility? Am I to be an agent used by the state to reign in and maintain order, or am I to be an agent of the Kingdom of God to be a city on the hill, to be a guide to those in lawlessness to become reconcilled with God...

I would suggest that the two are not compatible, because by the nature of the state, it must use violence to restrain violence.

So God ordained the state to restrain evil, but this state should be made up of only non-Christians? I don't agree with that. Christians should be a part of the state as well - and we would be better off with Christians being used by the state to reign in and maintain order. We are body and spirit, and I think we can guide those to become reconcilled with God simultaneously as we maintain order physically.

Isn't it somewhat ironic that we kill in war to punish those who killed us? It is like hitting a child to punish him for hitting someone else!?!

Well it isn't just punishment, but also protection. And, intent matters. If we consider what is going on now in the middle east - we've reluctantly gone to war with those who've taken lives. Yet, they weren't reluctant in killing innocents. Also, if this child is hitting someone else (say a little girl), and the only way to get the child to stop beating her is to hit the child, I'd hit him.

 

[RadicalReformer]

Believers have a responsibility to be prophetic voice to the government.

Remember back in the OT - What did God say to Samuel, when the nation of Israel wanted a King?

 

[Veritas]

Is this addressing my contention? God told Samuel the people were rejecting Him as King.

 

[sharon333]

This always a tough subject for me to deal with when looking at my faith.

 

[alanejackson]

I realize that our troops must obey orders or they will be court marshalled and be sent to prison.

Maybe taking that route, would allow you into heaven, and obeying orders to kill others will not.
I think we are to be asking ourself, what would Jesus do? And try to do it.

"NOTHING CAN BRING YOU PEACE, BUT BY THE TRIUMPH OF PRINCIPLES"- R.W. EMERSON
~~~~~~~~~~
Psychological Fashion

Killing For Sport

Or

Dying To Live Better

The interpretation recovered from the remains of past South American attempts at civilization, tells us that the culture had developed a society which sacrificed its sports heroes by beheading them during religious rituals. Those who had become popular among the citizens by way of their efforts displayed during sporting events, appear to have willingly submitted to their own execution during temple ceremonies. The politically correct version of what was taking place, explained how these sports heroes were actually being given safe passage to a glorified "next life". Was it really a method by which the politicians dealt with competition? Do you find it strange, that in the records, today, in the USA, our government affords this same honor to the convicted murderers/killers, and also to many others?

The man introduced himself as an attorney. I said, isn't that just another name for lawyer? He pointed out, that nowadays, people don't seem to like the term "lawyer". I mentioned that it was because they're all just ambulance chasers, and that it's hard to find a good constitutional lawyer. His response was, that they cost a lot of money. The conversation made me wonder what kind of lawyers were being appointed to the poor in court, nowadays.

After explaining the theory of Magnetrition, to a point, the guy spoke up, saying, you're not going to convince me that smoking is good. I asked him if he would debate it. He said no. I then pointed out, that would be the reason.

Living in their prison, with their guns to your head, under the logic of the lie, can you feel the strings, Pinocchio?

One group went to the US, took control of airplanes, crashed them into buildings, killed many people including their own, in an effort to make a statement, in self-defense.

One group went to Iraq, to control everything, bombed many buildings, killed many people including their own, in an effort to make a statement, in self-defense.

Cannot the same reasoning used to defend the act of shooting to death the occupants of a van full of women and children, be used to justify the events of 911? Will those who have killed, return home to become heroes, cops, and politicians? Will those who disagree, see things differently, find politics attempting to make their life difficult, until they agree, until they see things as the politician does?

Both these groups have put forth grade effort to make themselves known to me. Each group tells me they will win the battle. Each group asks if I will be with them, or against them? Each group has a different road map that they follow. Each group takes the path leading to death for many. Presented in a context recognizable, like a football game, each group asks if I will choose from the two sides, of the same coin. Is there another option/road map, showing a path less followed? What about the map that shows the path that Jesus took? What about the road leading to the "Cross"?

Self sacrifice, where reading becomes remembering.

As you envision Jesus staggering through the streets under the weight of his cross, being whipped and spat upon, hold your spittle for a moment, consider what you're witnessing. Is this a man before you, putting forth grade effort toward his own demise? Or is this a man that has chosen not to embrace killing and murdering, and is putting forth grade effort toward exposing those who would? Have you become like Peter in the garden, when the killers came to get Jesus? Have you chosen a side that leads to killing, to death for many? Can Jesus correct your action? Will you stay your sword because the truth has asked you to? Can you see that there is an option offered that does not embrace killing and murder? Can you see the path that war does not offer, which leads to a better life, for the following generations?

As you envision Jesus repairing the ear of the soldier who had come with an armed gang to take Jesus prisoner while he was away from public observance, stay your sword for a moment and consider what you're witnessing. Is this a man who would be "with" the actions of the present US administration? Or would he rebuke them for the same reasoning he did Peter? Did Peter's knee-jerk reaction show that he was no more ready to fill a position of leadership than those with the present administration? Does the "just following orders" mentality of a soldier, lack the free speech, therefore the free thought necessary to recognize that his actions lead away from civilization, and into a world of death and destruction,? Without free speech in his unit/community, what is a soldier's vote worth? Is the road map that the present administration suggests we follow the same one Nazi Germany used? Is it a road that leads to the elite, (in the public eye) appearing to live high on the hog, for a while, off the robbery and rape of the common man, (off-camera)? Are true Christians, those who would follow Jesus rather than Peter, being persecuted with politically guided economic and military reprisals today, because they will not join with and sanction the contrary option offered by those with the present administration? Is the present administration using the sword, because those "with" them do not have the understanding of the word?

Haggai 2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

 

[alanejackson]

I Am with Child

War, What It's Used for

Or

Another of Israel's War Presidents

From 2 Samuel 11.
And it came to pass in an eveningtide, that David arose from off his bed, and walked upon the roof of the king's house: and from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman was very beautiful to look upon. And David sent and enquired after the woman. And one said, Is not this Bath-sheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite? And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her; for she was purified from her uncleanness: and she returned unto her house. And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, I am with child. And David sent to Joab, saying, Send me Uriah the Hittite. And Joab sent Uriah to David. And when Uriah was come unto him, David demanded of him how Joab did, and how the people did, and how the war prospered. And David said to Uriah, Go down to thy house, and wash thy feet. And Uriah departed out of the king's house, and there followed him a mess of meat from the king. But Uriah slept at the door of the king's house with all the servants of his lord, and went not down to his house. And when they had told David, saying, Uriah went not down unto his house, David said unto Uriah, Camest thou not from thy journey? why then didst thou not go down unto thine house? And Uriah said unto David, The ark, and Israel, and Judah, abide in tents; and my lord Joab, and the servants of my lord, are encamped in the open fields; shall I then go into mine house, to eat and to drink, and to lie with my wife? as thou livest, and as thy soul liveth, I will not do this thing. And David said to Uriah, Tarry here to day also, and to morrow I will let thee depart. So Uriah abode in Jerusalem that day, and the morrow. And when David had called him, he did eat and drink before him; and he made him drunk: and at even he went out to lie on his bed with the servants of his lord, but went not down to his house. And it came to pass in the morning, that David wrote a letter to Joab, and sent it by the hand of Uriah. And he wrote in the letter, saying, Set ye Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retire ye from him, that he may be smitten, and die. And when the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband. And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.

Because Uriah Didn't Question Government Officials, Because He Did Not Read, Because He Subscribed to Secrecy, He Played an Important Contributing Role in His Own Murder. Could you be used in such a way?

And the Woman Conceived, and Said, I Am with Child. Is the Medical Procedure Known As Abortion, the Premeditated Murder of a Child?

How the War Prospered? Who the War Prospered?

The Servants of My Lord, Are Encamped in the Open Fields; Shall I Then Go into Mine House, to Eat and to Drink, and to Lie with My Wife? Does the one that started the war?

The Sin of Not Being Aware, Places Us All in the Category of Sinners.

The story of Jesus tells us a how he died for the people's sins, because of the people's sins. It seems that one of the people's greatest sins is to do nothing while the innocent around them are being put to death. For we sin without recognizing it, being unaware of it. And the people's sins are against God.

The doctor of the future will give no medicine but will interest his patients in the care of the human frame, in diet, and in the cause and prevention of disease. - Thomas A. Edison.

Let food be your medicine, and medicine be your food. - Hippocrates

 

[turnorburn]

Is this off topic, from James chapter 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[BFSmith764]

I have a question , when God said in Genesis 9: 6>>>"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.
Now that seems so straight forward and yet in the Old Testement look at all the wars and killings. So it still is today ...but what bothers me is God did not put a stipulation in there that said , its ok to kill as long as it's in war. Then Jesus said in Matthew 5 : 44 thru 48.>>>> "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that ? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. If we are to be Christ like , should we not do and be as Jesus taught . To me it seems as though he is saying not to hate , but in war we kill so isn't that the opposite of what Jesus tauhgt. ? This has always bothered me because even in the 10 commadments it says thou shall not kill. So if you kill someone deliberatley with the knowledge that you are going to isn't that murder for all parties involed . ? Will those who kill others even in war time be judge by God for killing other men. ?

In Genesis 9:6 God was not so much telling human beings not to murder or kill (it was more like a warning of what ones action will cause), He was simply saying whosoever takes a human life, you will create or is part of a chain reaction that would lead or continue to others to kill that person; taking revenge for example. In other words, human beings will continue to shed other human beings life as long as human beings are on the earth, because before the one who took someone else's life, someone before him also took the life of another human being. It’s like starting a domino effect by knocking down the first domino you create an endless effect of dominoes being knocked down, as long as there is a domino in front of the one being knocked down.

 

[alanejackson]

For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.[/quote]

Thanks for sharing. I have heard it said many times, "if it's the Lord's will", and although I give thanks almost every day for guidence toward God's will in our lives, you have helped to point out I do not say it in public as much as I should. I could be, could have been, setting a better example.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[turnorburn]

For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.[/quote:175fb]

Thanks for sharing. I have heard it said many times, "if it's the Lord's will", and although I give thanks almost every day for guidence toward God's will in our lives, you have helped to point out I do not say it in public as much as I should. I could be, could have been, setting a better example.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

[/quote:175fb]

Once you start saying it you'll feel a prick when you neglect it, excuse me I
mean I do