Law of God/Moses/Christ/the Spirit

[JLB]

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We are no longer under a schoolmaster, the law.

It’s clear.

Under literally means under obligation to obey the law of Moses.

Why.

Because it was added UNTIL the Seed should come.

 

[Johann!@#]

No assumption sir.

I can see plainly that have added your own words to create a different meaning.

Right, this is where I leave this discussion. But before I do I'll leave you with this.

...... let's walk slowly and carefully through what Paul actually says...... not just what sounds clear to us in translation.

You quoted: “We are no longer under a schoolmaster”...... Galatians 3:25...... "Ἐλθούσης δὲ τῆς πίστεως, οὐκέτι ἐσμὲν ὑπὸ παιδαγωγόν." This is true...... but the meaning depends entirely on understanding what παιδαγωγός meant in 1st-century Greco-Roman and Jewish settings.

The παιδαγωγός was not the teacher...... not the διδάσκαλος...... but a household servant assigned to supervise and escort children to the instructor...... a disciplinarian guide whose role ceased once the child reached maturity. Paul uses this as a metaphor for the role of the νόμος...... specifically, its preparatory function before the revelation of πίστις—faith in the Messiah.

So when Paul says we are no longer “under the παιδαγωγός”...... he means the Law’s custodial role leading up to Christ has ended...... not that all divine νόμος (instruction, teaching) has been abolished or discarded. The role of παιδαγωγός was temporary...... the authority of God’s δικαιώματα (righteous requirements) was not.

You said “under” means “under obligation to obey the Law of Moses.” But Paul’s language is more nuanced...... in Romans 6:14 he says "οὐ γάρ ἐστε ὑπὸ νόμον, ἀλλὰ ὑπὸ χάριν"...... but he does not say the νόμος has no present application...... rather, that we are no longer under its dominion as a system of justification or condemnation. The contrast is covenantal, not ethical...... and Paul affirms this explicitly in Romans 3:31: “Do we then make void the Law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Law”...... καταργοῦμεν οὖν νόμον διὰ τῆς πίστεως; μὴ γένοιτο· ἀλλὰ νόμον ἱστάνομεν.

So when you say...... “Because it was added UNTIL the Seed should come”...... you’re quoting Galatians 3:19 accurately, but truncating Paul’s logic.

The verse says: "Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions (χάριν τῶν παραβάσεων), until the Seed should come to whom the promise was made." The νόμος was never the method of life or justification...... it was an interim revelation exposing παραβάσεις and preparing for the Seed.

But this clause...... “until the Seed should come”...... does not mean the divine standards or δικαιοσύνη expressed in the Law have vanished. In Romans 8:4, Paul states the goal of salvation in Christ: “That the δικαίωμα τοῦ νόμου might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” The δικαίωμα—the righteous requirement of the Law—is fulfilled in us...... not set aside...... not abolished.

So let’s be clear...... the παιδαγωγική function of the νόμος has ended with the coming of Christ...... but the δικαιώματα—the just and holy standards of God’s will—remain...... not under the old covenantal framework of Sinai, but under the covenant of Spirit-led life in Christ.

Paul’s message is not “we no longer obey”...... but “we no longer are under the custodial system”...... we are led by the Spirit, but that Spirit leads us into the character of God, not away from it...... “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God” (Romans 8:14)...... and that Spirit writes the νόμος on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 10:16)...... not erases it.

As to your question regarding whether I should undergo circumcision or practice it myself...

God Did Command Circumcision—But It Was a Covenant Sign, Not a Creation Ordinance
Genesis 17:10 – “This is my covenant, which ye shall keep… Every male among you shall be circumcised…”
This was given to Abraham's physical seed, not as a universal law for all mankind.
οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ διαθήκη μου in the LXX shows it was a covenant-specific command.

This command applied to ethnic Israel, not to the nations universally.

2. The Law (νόμος) of Circumcision Was a Shadow and Tutor (παιδαγωγός) Leading to Christ
Galatians 3:24–25 – “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster (παιδαγωγός) to bring us unto Christ… But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
  Circumcision, part of the νόμος, served temporarily to point forward.

Romans 4:11 – “And he received the sign (σημεῖον) of circumcision, a seal (σφραγῖδα) of the righteousness of the faith…”
Even in Abraham’s time, the faith preceded the circumcision.

3. New Testament Teaching Abrogates Physical Circumcision as Binding
1 Corinthians 7:19 – “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.”
  Here Paul distinguishes between the external covenantal sign and actual divine ethical obedience.

Galatians 5:6 – “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
  Circumcision’s covenantal role is completed in the New Covenant.

Colossians 2:11 – “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands…”
This is περιτομὴ ἀχειροποιήτος—spiritual circumcision—not of the flesh, but of the heart.

4. Moral Law (i.e., That Which Reflects God’s Righteous Character) Is Still Binding
When we say God’s “moral law” is still binding...... we refer to those divine imperatives that:

Reflect God’s unchanging character (e.g., truth, justice, love),

Are reaffirmed in the New Covenant (e.g., Matthew 22:37–40; Romans 13:8–10),

Apply across all covenants and all peoples.

Circumcision does not meet this standard:

It was given to a specific covenant people,

For a specific redemptive purpose,

And has been fulfilled and set aside (Hebrews 7:18–19; Acts 15:10–11).

5. Acts 15—the Apostolic Ruling Against Circumcision for Gentiles
Acts 15:1, 5 – Some were saying, “Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Acts 15:10 – “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”

Acts 15:24–29 – The apostles explicitly rejected circumcision as binding on Gentile believers.


No, you are not under obligation to circumcise yourself...... because circumcision was never a universal, eternal command for all mankind...... it was a covenantal sign (σημεῖον, berith) for Abraham’s descendants under the old covenant...... and now that the Seed (τὸ σπέρμα – Galatians 3:16) has come, we are no longer under that covenantal marker.

Thus, though God did command it within a specific covenant...... and though it was holy and good in its time...... it is no longer binding under the New Covenant in Christ Jesus.

I ask you again, read Bob Utley, as I am learning a lot from him--

Circumcision

Circumcision, Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

freebiblecommentary.org

God bless.

J.

 

[JLB]

Right, this is where I leave this discussion. But before I do I'll leave you with this.

...... let's walk slowly and carefully through what Paul actually says...... not just what sounds clear to us in translation.

You quoted: “We are no longer under a schoolmaster”...... Galatians 3:25...... "Ἐλθούσης δὲ τῆς πίστεως, οὐκέτι ἐσμὲν ὑπὸ παιδαγωγόν." This is true...... but the meaning depends entirely on understanding what παιδαγωγός meant in 1st-century Greco-Roman and Jewish settings.

The παιδαγωγός was not the teacher...... not the διδάσκαλος...... but a household servant assigned to supervise and escort children to the instructor...... a disciplinarian guide whose role ceased once the child reached maturity. Paul uses this as a metaphor for the role of the νόμος...... specifically, its preparatory function before the revelation of πίστις—faith in the Messiah.

So when Paul says we are no longer “under the παιδαγωγός”...... he means the Law’s custodial role leading up to Christ has ended...... not that all divine νόμος (instruction, teaching) has been abolished or discarded. The role of παιδαγωγός was temporary...... the authority of God’s δικαιώματα (righteous requirements) was not.

You said “under” means “under obligation to obey the Law of Moses.” But Paul’s language is more nuanced...... in Romans 6:14 he says "οὐ γάρ ἐστε ὑπὸ νόμον, ἀλλὰ ὑπὸ χάριν"...... but he does not say the νόμος has no present application...... rather, that we are no longer under its dominion as a system of justification or condemnation. The contrast is covenantal, not ethical...... and Paul affirms this explicitly in Romans 3:31: “Do we then make void the Law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Law”...... καταργοῦμεν οὖν νόμον διὰ τῆς πίστεως; μὴ γένοιτο· ἀλλὰ νόμον ἱστάνομεν.

So when you say...... “Because it was added UNTIL the Seed should come”...... you’re quoting Galatians 3:19 accurately, but truncating Paul’s logic.

The verse says: "Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions (χάριν τῶν παραβάσεων), until the Seed should come to whom the promise was made." The νόμος was never the method of life or justification...... it was an interim revelation exposing παραβάσεις and preparing for the Seed.

But this clause...... “until the Seed should come”...... does not mean the divine standards or δικαιοσύνη expressed in the Law have vanished. In Romans 8:4, Paul states the goal of salvation in Christ: “That the δικαίωμα τοῦ νόμου might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” The δικαίωμα—the righteous requirement of the Law—is fulfilled in us...... not set aside...... not abolished.

So let’s be clear...... the παιδαγωγική function of the νόμος has ended with the coming of Christ...... but the δικαιώματα—the just and holy standards of God’s will—remain...... not under the old covenantal framework of Sinai, but under the covenant of Spirit-led life in Christ.

Paul’s message is not “we no longer obey”...... but “we no longer are under the custodial system”...... we are led by the Spirit, but that Spirit leads us into the character of God, not away from it...... “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God” (Romans 8:14)...... and that Spirit writes the νόμος on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 10:16)...... not erases it.

As to your question regarding whether I should undergo circumcision or practice it myself...

God Did Command Circumcision—But It Was a Covenant Sign, Not a Creation Ordinance
Genesis 17:10 – “This is my covenant, which ye shall keep… Every male among you shall be circumcised…”
This was given to Abraham's physical seed, not as a universal law for all mankind.
οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ διαθήκη μου in the LXX shows it was a covenant-specific command.

This command applied to ethnic Israel, not to the nations universally.

2. The Law (νόμος) of Circumcision Was a Shadow and Tutor (παιδαγωγός) Leading to Christ
Galatians 3:24–25 – “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster (παιδαγωγός) to bring us unto Christ… But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
  Circumcision, part of the νόμος, served temporarily to point forward.

Romans 4:11 – “And he received the sign (σημεῖον) of circumcision, a seal (σφραγῖδα) of the righteousness of the faith…”
Even in Abraham’s time, the faith preceded the circumcision.

3. New Testament Teaching Abrogates Physical Circumcision as Binding
1 Corinthians 7:19 – “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.”
  Here Paul distinguishes between the external covenantal sign and actual divine ethical obedience.

Galatians 5:6 – “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
  Circumcision’s covenantal role is completed in the New Covenant.

Colossians 2:11 – “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands…”
This is περιτομὴ ἀχειροποιήτος—spiritual circumcision—not of the flesh, but of the heart.

4. Moral Law (i.e., That Which Reflects God’s Righteous Character) Is Still Binding
When we say God’s “moral law” is still binding...... we refer to those divine imperatives that:

Reflect God’s unchanging character (e.g., truth, justice, love),

Are reaffirmed in the New Covenant (e.g., Matthew 22:37–40; Romans 13:8–10),

Apply across all covenants and all peoples.

Circumcision does not meet this standard:

It was given to a specific covenant people,

For a specific redemptive purpose,

And has been fulfilled and set aside (Hebrews 7:18–19; Acts 15:10–11).

5. Acts 15—the Apostolic Ruling Against Circumcision for Gentiles
Acts 15:1, 5 – Some were saying, “Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Acts 15:10 – “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”

Acts 15:24–29 – The apostles explicitly rejected circumcision as binding on Gentile believers.


No, you are not under obligation to circumcise yourself...... because circumcision was never a universal, eternal command for all mankind...... it was a covenantal sign (σημεῖον, berith) for Abraham’s descendants under the old covenant...... and now that the Seed (τὸ σπέρμα – Galatians 3:16) has come, we are no longer under that covenantal marker.

Thus, though God did command it within a specific covenant...... and though it was holy and good in its time...... it is no longer binding under the New Covenant in Christ Jesus.

I ask you again, read Bob Utley, as I am learning a lot from him--

Circumcision

Circumcision, Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

freebiblecommentary.org

God bless.

J.

The law of Moses was abolished, nailed to the cross and therefore taken out of the way, having become fulfilled and therefore obsolete.

Not part of the law. No the ceremonial law.

The law of Moses was a dividing wall of separation that has been torn down and removed, to make way for the one new man.

If you believe physical circumcision and Sabbath laws which require stoning people to death, and animal sacrifices and so on are still required to do then have at it bro.




JLB

 

[Johann!@#]

If you believe physical circumcision and Sabbath laws which require stoning people to death, and animal sacrifices and so on are still required to do then have at it bro.

Here's something you may not have come across or been fully aware of...and you are putting words in my mouth. Let's leave this little bantering since I do not want to get banned again brother.

The division of God's commandments-from the Ten Words (עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדִּבְּרוֹת / δεκάλογος) into 613 commandments (תרי"ג מצוות)—originated not in Scripture itself, but in later rabbinic tradition, especially from the Tannaitic period of Jewish thought (ca. 1st–3rd centuries CE).



1. The Number 613 First Appears in the Talmud
Babylonian Talmud, Makkot 23b–24a:
 > “613 commandments were given to Moses at Sinai, 365 negative commandments, corresponding to the days of the solar year, and 248 positive commandments, corresponding to the limbs of the human body.”

This tradition is attributed to Rabbi Simlai, a 3rd-century Amora (teacher in the post-Mishnah period).
This is the earliest textual source explicitly naming the number 613.

2. Not Found in Scripture or in Early Second Temple Literature
Neither the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) nor the Septuagint (LXX) nor Second Temple Jewish texts (like the Dead Sea Scrolls, Jubilees, Philo, or Josephus) ever specify 613 commandments.

The division is not biblical, but an effort of rabbinic enumeration and systematization of all identifiable imperatives in the Torah (Genesis–Deuteronomy).

3. Later Codification by Medieval Jewish Thinkers
Several rabbinic authorities attempted to list and categorize all 613 commandments, and they did not always agree on what should count:

Maimonides (Rambam) – in his Sefer HaMitzvot (Book of Commandments), 12th century.
His enumeration became the most authoritative and widely accepted.

Rabbi Saadia Gaon, Nachmanides (Ramban), and others also composed their own lists.

These all sought to preserve the taryag mitzvot (תרי״ג מצוות), the “613 commandments,” but they vary in content.

4. Why Did They Do It?
The motivation was likely:

To demonstrate the completeness of Torah,

To provide a pedagogical structure,

And possibly to mirror the symbolic numerology in Jewish thought (e.g., 365 = solar days, 248 = body parts in traditional understanding).

5. Relation to the Ten Words (Exodus 20; Deuteronomy 5)

The Ten Words (Decalogue) are seen in Scripture as the foundational utterances of God’s covenant at Sinai (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13).

The 613 mitzvot are not a subdivision of the Ten Words, but rather an expansive rabbinic effort to catalog all individual commands scattered throughout the Torah.


The division of YHWH’s commandments into 613 was not made by God or Moses but by Rabbi Simlai, a rabbinic teacher from the 3rd century CE...... and it was later systematized by Jewish scholars like Maimonides...... intended as a tool of study and devotion, not as a divine enumeration from Mount Sinai.

And in my culture calling someone "bro" is slang, let's just stay with Scripture..

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
Act 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

There's a lesson we all can learn from right here, right JLB?

Shalom.

J.

 

[JLB]

There's a lesson we all can learn from right here, right @JLB?

Yes. That lesson is to search the scriptures daily and not rely on the doctrines of men.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9

Do you believe Christians are obligated to become physically circumcised?

 

[JLB]

But this clause...... “until the Seed should come”...... does not mean the divine standards or δικαιοσύνη expressed in the Law have vanished.

Of course it means the law being temporary until Messiah comes and ushers in the New Covenant, has been fulfilled and therefore abolished.

 

[Johann!@#]

Do you believe Christians are obligated to become physically circumcised?

I have answered your question with Scripture, highlighted in green--please reread my post.

J.