Law vs. Grace

[for_his_glory]

I will not post all 613 Mosaic/Levitical laws as it's to lengthy, but you can look them up online. Point being if you want to live under the law, which by the way was only for the Israelite for their transgressions and not given to the Gentile nation, then you must live by all the law in order to be made righteous and sinless before the Father and remember there is a curse if you break even one. Jesus never came to destroy the law, but came to fulfill all the law through his life, death and resurrection to redeem us from the curse of the law to live under Gods' new covenant that saves or redeems us by his grace that no matter who you are or where you are from Christ is all and in all who answer Gods call of salvation to be Spiritually renewed by his Spirit. You can either live by the law or choose to live by grace as it is a personal choice, but you can not live by both and only choose those laws you want to follow. And by the way, the 10 commandments are part of the 613 laws and not a separate set of laws.

Old Mosaic Covenant New Spiritual Covenant

OLD Covenant... II Cor. 3:14 NEW Covenant... II Cor. 3:6
FIRST Covenant... Heb. 8:7,9:1 SECOND Covenant... Heb. 8:7,10:1-9
Came by Moses... John 1:17 Came by Christ... Heb. 8:6,9:15
Law of God in STONE... II Cor.3:3 Law of God in HEART... Heb. 10:16
Law of MOSES... Acts 13:38-39 Law of CHRIST... Gal. 6:2
Law of the flesh... Rom. 7:5-6 Law of the SPIRIT... Rom. 8:2
NOT of faith... Gal. 3:2 Law of FAITH... Rom. 3:27
Yoke of BONDAGE... Gal. 5:1 Law of LIBERTY... James 1:25
Law of SIN... Rom. 7:5-6 Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS... Rom. 9:30-31
Law of DEATH... II Cor. 3:7 Law of LIFE... Gal. 3:11, 6:8
Christ removes OLD... Heb. 10:9 Christ enacted the NEW... Heb.10:9
A SHADOW... Col. 2:14-17 The REALITY... Heb. 10:1-18
FULFILLED... Matt. 5:17-18 NOW IN FORCE... Heb. 8:6,10:9
Priesthood CHANGED... Heb. 7:12 UNCHANGEABLE Priesthood... Heb. 7:24
MANY sacrifices... Heb. 9:12-13 ONE sacrifice for sin... Heb. 10:12
IMPERFECT... Heb. 7:19 PERFECT... Heb. 7:19
Blood of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:19 Blood of CHRIST... Matt. 26:28
Circumcision... Ex. 12:48 Uncircumcised... Rom. 4:9-12
WORKS of law... Gal. 3:10 NOT of works but GRACE... Eph. 2:8
REMEMBERS sins... Heb. 10:3 FORGETS sins... Heb. 10:17
YEARLY atonement... Heb. 10:3 PERMANENT atonement... Heb. 10:4
SINFUL priests... Heb. 5:3 SINLESS priest... Heb. 7:26
AARONIC priesthood... Heb. 7:11 MELCHIZEDEK priest... Heb. 5:5-10
MAN MADE tabernacle... Heb. 8:5 HEAVENLY tabernacle... Heb. 8:2,11
Out of LEVI... Heb. 7:11 Out of JUDAH... Heb. 7:14
WEAK, UNPROFITABLE... Heb. 7:18 POWER of ENDLESS LIFE... Heb. 7:16
NO inheritance... Rom. 4:13 ETERNAL inheritance... Heb. 9:15
Sacrifice of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:13 Sacrifice of CHRIST... Heb. 9:28
Purified the FLESH... Heb. 8:13 Purged the CONSCIENCE... Heb. 9:14
PRODUCES wrath... Rom. 4:15 SAVES from wrath... Rom. 5:9
Perfected NOTHING... Heb. 7:19 Perfects BELIEVERS... Heb. 10:14
NO MERCY... Heb. 10:28 COMPLETE MERCY... Heb. 8:12
NO justification... Acts 13:39 BELIEVERS justified... Acts 13:39
BRINGS a curse... Gal. 3:10 REDEEMS from curse... Acts 3:13
ABOLISHED... II Cor. 3:13 CONTINUES IN GLORY... II Cor. 3:11
Brought DEATH... II Cor. 3:7 Brought RECONCILIATION... II Cor. 5:18
ISRAEL ONLY... Deut. 4:7-8,5:3 ALL MANKIND Mark 14:24, II Cor. 5:14-19


Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Reply

 

[Hitch]

Is God's grace demonstrated by the Law?

If not,

Which of God's attributes are demonstrated by the Law?

Didnt our Lord quote the Law when He said 'love thy neighbor as thyself'?

Does this apply today?

 

[Drew]

I do not share all of your views on this matter, but in the present post anyway, I will comment on points of agreement:

......the law, which by the way was only for the Israelite for their transgressions and not given to the Gentile nation,....

Heartily agree. Failing to understand this leads to all sorts of problems interpreting the New Testament (especially the book of Romans, I would say), can even lead to the erroneous conclusion that "good works" do not matter unto final salvation (you may disagree with this last bit).

......And by the way, the 10 commandments are part of the 613 laws and not a separate set of laws.

Agree again. Watch out for those who take it upon themselves to declare some parts of the Law of Moses to be a "moral" law - which still applies - and other parts as constitutive of a "ceremonial" law that is now abolished.

This a fiction divisional that has no Biblical support.

 

[jasoncran]

you missunderstood the law, while its true that we are not the under the law. the law was given to seperate the the peoples of isreal from the heathens

per this verse.
deutermony 6

6Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

7For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
8And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
9Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons; 10Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

there was grace then,it just was done a little different otherwise the psalmists couldnt say this

for his mercy endureth for ever!

Psalm 136


1O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
2O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
3O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
4To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
5To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
6To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
7To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
8The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
9The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
10To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:
11And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:
12With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
13To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:
14And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:
15But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
16To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.
17To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
18And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
19Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:
20And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:
21And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:
22Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
23Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:
24And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
25Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever. 26O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

now then i dont disagree with the law and grace but the law wasnt ever meant to make on holy. it was meant to lead you to holy living after faith and to keep you from sinning. the difference tween now and then is that said law is written in our hearts per jermiah 31.

the function of the law was in a way of a theocracy as god deal with certian peeps when talking to the nation or a person.

when david inquired of the lord he went to the high priest and the priest sought the urim and thurimum and also the linen ephod. which was the way the lord answered them

indivuals did pray and seek the lord see the birth of samuel and also nehemiah when he prayed to the lord.daniel as well.

so we have prayer and also grace.

 

[jasoncran]

I do not share all of your views on this matter, but in the present post anyway, I will comment on points of agreement:


Heartily agree. Failing to understand this leads to all sorts of problems interpreting the New Testament (especially the book of Romans, I would say), can even lead to the erroneous conclusion that "good works" do not matter unto final salvation (you may disagree with this last bit).


Agree again. Watch out for those who take it upon themselves to declare some parts of the Law of Moses to be a "moral" law - which still applies - and other parts as constitutive of a "ceremonial" law that is now abolished.

This a fiction divisional that has no Biblical support.

actually its you that is wrong, the law in that part of morals which paul gets the sins listed is still in affect otherwise a christian could steal,kill, and fornicate and commit other acts

the seven noahide laws are still around and we follow them when we do the lords will and walk with him.

how does my son nathan ever gonna know killing is wrong? lying is wrong?

if he says i love jesus, doesnt mean he just knows that is sin magically.

the spirit doesnt teach his word without any reading the bible. i went to the bible and learned all that for myself. theres no other way to say this get ones head in the bible and learn what god wants from you.

one shouldnt have to pray for discerment when the obvious commands are given against murder.

 

[for_his_glory]

Is God's grace demonstrated by the Law?

If not,

Which of God's attributes are demonstrated by the Law?

Didnt our Lord quote the Law when He said 'love thy neighbor as thyself'?

Does this apply today?

No, Gods' grace is not demonstrated by the law and Paul showed us why in Romans 8:1-6.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

[jasoncran]

No, Gods' grace is not demonstrated by the law and Paul showed us why in Romans 8:1-6.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

so knowing that god could have not forgiven me isnt act or teaching of grace?

to whom much is FORGIVEN loveth much

so what do you tell the lost when they say i dont sin as they steal and so forth?

grace is getting what you dont deserve. read up on what the law was for and did do and what paul and jesus had to deal with. the radical sects of the sanhedrin and how they perverted it.

yet read the ot and what the writers of it say. they often speak of mercy. the law is like the laws of today. we do have laws in countries as we need to know what is against the law.

the law is for our good. live by the commands.

this means if i dont do those things that god hates i wont have the reaping issues. sow sin and get corruption. why do christians think that the law means death? it points you to the CROSS.

WHEREBY we get saved!

the law was a tudor that points us to the cross. clearly stated by paul.what is walking in the spirit? how does one know what the spirit wants ?he tells us clearly by the bible and or speaking to us.

i have never met a strong man in the lord that didnt know the bible.

 

[Hitch]

No, Gods' grace is not demonstrated by the law and Paul showed us why in Romans 8:1-6.

Did Jesus follow the Law when he released the woman caught in adultery?

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

So God showing us what is righteous (v 4) is ungracious?

The Law demands we love our neighbor, grace in the person of Jesus Christ makes the same demand.
The Law demands equal application for rich and poor.
The Law insists the poor be allowed to glean the fields.
The Law protect the widow.
The Law says your house is your own.
The Law , granted through the Holy Spirit is by nature and defintion gracious, and could not possible be otherwise.

 

[Adullam]

No, Gods' grace is not demonstrated by the law and Paul showed us why in Romans 8:1-6.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

God's grace empowers/enables us to fulfill the law!

 

[Drew]

actually its you that is wrong, the law in that part of morals which paul gets the sins listed is still in affect otherwise a christian could steal,kill, and fornicate and commit other acts

This is incorrect logic, although it keeps re-occurring over and over again.

With the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, the Christian does not need "written law" to guide behaviour.

It is simply incorrect to argue thus:

1. Drew denies that the 10 Commandments are a written code that guides behaviour;

2. Therefore, Drew is saying that its Ok to murder, commit adultery.

Conclusion (2) simply does not follow from premise (1), for reasons that have just been provided.

 

[Drew]

the spirit doesnt teach his word without any reading the bible. i went to the bible and learned all that for myself. theres no other way to say this get ones head in the bible and learn what god wants from you.

I see no Biblical evidence for the position that we need the Law of Moses to guide behaviour, this side of the cross. In fact, there is much evidence against it. In Galatians, Paul describes the Law as a paidagogos. A paidagogos is a kind of male baby-sitter who takes care of a child until it reaches the age of majority. At point, the job of the paidagogos is done. Here in Romans 7, Paul makes it clear that the Spirit has replaced the Law:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

 

[Hitch]

I see no Biblical evidence for the position that we need the Law of Moses to guide behaviour, this side of the cross. In fact, there is much evidence against it. In Galatians, Paul describes the Law as a paidagogos. A paidagogos is a kind of male baby-sitter who takes care of a child until it reaches the age of majority. At point, the job of the paidagogos is done. Here in Romans 7, Paul makes it clear that the Spirit has replaced the Law:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Well Drew one of the blessings of law is that it protects us from the barbarians. Few are so in tuned with the Spirit as you and neither understand nor care about right vs wrong. In Utopia every one is more concerned with his neighbor than himself, but most of us dont live there.
But on the other hand, has anything been more abused by those insisting on applying their own standards as claiming their particular version was personally granted by the Spirit? And if the followers can be convinced (or coerced) into believing there is no longer any objective standard , say what is written , we end up with the Shakers on one end and Jim Jones on the other.
To apply Paul's contrasting of the the Law, as practiced and applied by the Pharisees, to the grace of Christ's atonement, as it relates to salvation, to the general applications required by society at large if foolhardy by any measure. After all since it was the Holy Spirit's inspiration that brought the Law into written form it is impossible then that same Spirit would later contradict Himself.
Back to the OP the problem remains the same, the stark dichotomy presented here and reflecting the teachings of Scofield and Chafer does not and never has existed in reality.

 

[Hitch]

This is incorrect logic, although it keeps re-occurring over and over again.

With the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, the Christian does not need "written law" to guide behaviour.

There are two reasons to despise a written order,; 1; Attempting to justify something. 2; Attempting to replace what is written with a superior set of rules.

It is simply incorrect to argue thus:

1. Drew denies that the 10 Commandments are a written code that guides behaviour;

2. Therefore, Drew is saying that its Ok to murder, commit adultery.

Conclusion (2) simply does not follow from premise (1), for reasons that have just been provided.

 

[jasoncran]

I see no Biblical evidence for the position that we need the Law of Moses to guide behaviour, this side of the cross. In fact, there is much evidence against it. In Galatians, Paul describes the Law as a paidagogos. A paidagogos is a kind of male baby-sitter who takes care of a child until it reaches the age of majority. At point, the job of the paidagogos is done. Here in Romans 7, Paul makes it clear that the Spirit has replaced the Law:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

revalation 2

12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

13I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

drew why do read the bible then? what is it for if i dont know what is sin? and why did jesus say that if he didnt find that sin of balam offensive?

Verse 14. I have a few things against thee
Their good deeds are first carefully sought out and commended; what was wrong in them is touched with a gentle but effectual hand. The followers of Balaam, the Nicolaitanes, and the Gnostics, were probably all the same kind of persons; but See Clarke on Revelation 2:6. What the doctrine of Balaam was, see the notes on Numbers 24:1-25:18;; 31:1-54. It appears that there were some then in the Church at Pergamos who held eating things offered to idols in honour of those idols, and fornication, indifferent things. They associated with idolaters in the heathen temples, and partook with them in their religious festivals

per adam clarkes commentaries.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=002

 

[jasoncran]

http://www.ariel.org/mbs006e.htm

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This excerpt from Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s “Messianic Bible Study” radio program is vital, because many believers are not sure just how they relate to the Law of Moses today. This is a particular problem for Jewish believers. Our purpose, then, is to deal with the Scriptures from a perspective that is both Jewish and biblical, so that we might help clarify and resolve this issue that is so crucial and prevalent for those of us working here at Ariel Ministries, and Jewish missions and evangelism, in general.[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]INTRODUCTION[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]If there is one immediate problem that seems to face the new Jewish believer in the Messiah, it is this relationship to the Law of Moses. The dilemma is: to what extent is the Messianic Jew to keep the Law of Moses?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Two factors have developed in the minds and teachings of many Christians that have contributed to the creation of this problem. One is the practice of dividing the Law into ceremonial, legal, and moral commandments. On the basis of this division, many have come to think that the believer is free from the ceremonial and legal commandments but is still under the moral commandments. The second factor is the belief that the Ten Commandments are still valid today, while the other 603 commandments are not. When confronted by a Seventh Day Adventist, for example, an individual taking such an approach runs into problems concerning the fourth commandment on keeping the Sabbath. At that point, the believer begins fudging or hedging around the issue, and inconsistency results. While many different groups – both Jewish and Gentile, Messianic and non-Messianic – claim that we are still under the Law, none who say so actually believe it! Everyone who makes this claim then proceeds to make major adjustments to it, so many changes, in fact, that Moses himself would not recognize his own Law. No one who claims such today truly follows it as it is written.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]The solution to this problem lies in discovering what the Bible says about the Messianic believer’s relationship to the Law, especially the Ten Commandments.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]The Purpose of the Law of Moses[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]It is important to note that the Scriptures clearly state that the Law was given to Israel and not to the Gentiles or the Church (Deut. 4:7-8; Ps. 147:19-20; Mal. 4:4). Another thing to point out is the means by which the Mosaic Law was given. Most know that Moses received the Law on Mount Sinai from the Hand of God. Ten of those commandments, written on tablets of stone, were written with the Finger of God. The Old Testament indicates that the other 603 were written down as Moses was commanded by God.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Let’s move on to another area to answer the question, “What was the purpose of the Mosaic Law?” The Bible gives us several reasons for the purpose of the Mosaic Law. The first purpose was to reveal the holiness of God, to reveal the standard of righteousness that God demanded for a proper relationship with Him. Let me emphasize that at no time is it taught in Scripture that the Mosaic Law was the means of salvation. Such a concept would make salvation by means of works. We know, instead, that salvation was always by grace through faith. The content of faith has changed from age to age; exactly what one had to believe to be saved differed from age to age, depending on progressive revelation (that which God has revealed over time). But the means of salvation never changes, and the Mosaic Law was never intended to give the Jew a way of salvation. It was given to a people already redeemed from Egypt, not in order to redeem them.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]A second purpose of the Law was to provide the means or the rule of conduct for the Old Testament saints. We find this in Romans 3:20 and 28, where Paul makes clear that no man was justified by the works of the Law. The Law was never, ever a means of salvation. Rather, the Law always had other purposes, and, in this case, it provided the rule of life for the Old Testament believer.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Two more purposes were: to keep the Jews a distinct people (Lev. 11:44-45; Deut. 7:6; 14:1-2); and, to provide Israel with occasions for individual and corporate worship.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]A fifth purpose for the Mosaic Law was to reveal sin. Three passages in Romans point this out. In Romans 3:19-20, Paul emphasizes that there is no justification through the Law. By means of the Law no Jewish person will be justified. So what is the Law if not a way of justification, a way of salvation? The Law is there to give us the knowledge of sin, to reveal exactly what sin is, as Paul repeats in Romans 5:20 and 7:7. Paul became aware of his own sinful state by searching the Law and realizing that he fell short of the righteous standards of God (an example of the first and third purposes of the Law at work together).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Another purpose – this one is strange but true nevertheless – is to make a person sin more (Rom. 4:15; 5:20). Paul explains what he means by this in Romans 7:7-13 and again in I Corinthians 15:56, where we read that the power of sin is the Law.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Basically, Paul is saying here that a sin nature needs a base of operation; furthermore, the sin nature uses the Law as a base of operation. Paul notes that where there is no Law, there is no transgression. He did not mean, of course, that there was no sin before the Law was given. Rather, the term “transgression” is a specific type of sin violating a specific commandment. Men were sinners before the Law was given, but they were not transgressors of the Law until the Law was given. Once the Law was given, the sin nature had a base of operation, causing the individual to violate these commandments and sin all the more.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]This last purpose led to a seventh purpose, which is to lead us to absolute faith, specifically faith in Jesus the Messiah (Gal. 3:24). As hard as we may try to keep the Law perfectly, our sin nature prevents us from doing so, as Paul describes in the seventh chapter of Romans. There is yet another purpose, but this will be covered more appropriately later in this study.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]The Unity of the Law of Moses[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]It must be understood that the Mosaic Law is viewed in the Scriptures as a unit. The word, Torah or “Law,” is always singular when applied to the Law of Moses, although it contains 613 commandments. The same is true of the Greek word, Nomos, in the New Testament. The division of the Law of Moses into ceremonial, legal, and moral parts is convenient for the study of different types of commandments contained within it, but it is never divided this way by the Scriptures themselves. Neither is there any scriptural basis for separating the Ten Commandments from the whole 613 and making only the Ten perpetual. All 613 commandments are a single unit comprising the Law of Moses.[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[jasoncran]

continued

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]It is this principle of the unity of the Law of Moses that lies behind the idea of keeping the whole law in James 2:10. The Apostle’s point here is clearly that a person needs only to break one of the 613 commandments to be guilty of breaking all of the Law of Moses. And this can only be true if the Mosaic Law is a unit. If it were not, the guilt would lie only in the particular commandment violated and not in the whole Law. In other words, if one breaks a legal commandment, he is guilty of breaking the ceremonial and moral ones as well. The same is true of breaking a moral or ceremonial commandment. To bring the point closer to home, a person under the Law of Moses who eats ham is guilty of breaking the Ten Commandments, although none of the Ten says anything about ham.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]In order to clearly understand the Law of Moses and its relationship to the believer (Jew or Gentile), it is necessary to view it as do the Scriptures: as a unit, one that cannot be divided into parts that are nullified and parts that are kept. Nor can certain commandments be separated in such a way as to give them a different status from other commandments.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]The Law of Moses Rendered Inoperative[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]The clear-cut teaching of the New Testament is that the Law of Moses has been rendered inoperative with the death of Messiah; in other words, the Law in its totality no longer has authority over any individual. This is evident first of all from Romans 10:4, with Paul telling us that Christ is the end of the law. Galatians 2:16 concurs, stating that neither is there justification through the Law. Furthermore, there is no sanctification or perfection through the Law (Heb. 7:19).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]A second important point here is that the Mosaic Law was never meant to be a permanent administration, but a temporary one. In the context of Galatians 3:19, Paul describes the Law of Moses as an addition to the Abrahamic Covenant. It was added in order to make sin very clear so that all would know they have fallen short of God’s standard for righteousness. It was a temporary addition until Christ . . . till the seed should come; now that He has come, the Law is finished.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Third, with Christ there is a new priesthood, according to the order of Melchizedek, instead of the former order of Aaron. Whereas the Law of Moses provided the basis for the Levitical priesthood, this new priesthood required a new law under which it could operate. Hebrews 7:11-12 explains that only one type of priesthood was permitted and that was the Levitical priesthood. But the Levitical priesthood – and its sacrificial system of animal blood – could not bring perfection; only the Messiah’s blood could do that (Heb. 9:11-10:18). The Mosaic Law was the basis for the Levitical priesthood. But for the Levitical priesthood to be replaced by a new priesthood, the priesthood of Melchizedek, a change of the Law was required.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Was there a change of the Law? Hebrews 7:18 states that the Mosaic Law was disannulled. Because it is no longer in effect, we can now have a new priesthood after the order of Melchizedek. If the Mosaic Law was still in effect, Yeshua could not function as a priest. But the Mosaic Law is no longer in effect, and so Jesus can be a priest after the order of Melchizedek.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]The fourth line of evidence for the annulment of the Mosaic Law zeros right in on the part of the Law that most people want to retain – the Ten Commandments. Second Corinthians 3:2-11 is very significant here: First, we need to see what Paul is saying in this passage concerning the Law of Moses. He calls it both the ministration of death and the ministration of condemnation (vv. 7, 9) – both certainly negative but valid descriptions. In addition, Paul is clearly emphasizing the Ten Commandments, as it is these that are engraven on stones. The main point, then, is that the Law of Moses, especially as represented by the Ten Commandments, is a ministration of death and a ministration of condemnation. And this would remain true if the Ten Commandments were still in force today.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]But they are no longer in force, as the Law has passed away (vv. 7, 11). The Greek word used is katargeo, meaning “to render inoperative.†Since this passage’s emphasis is on the Ten Commandments, this means that the Ten Commandments have passed away. The thrust is very clear. The Law of Moses, and especially the Ten Commandments, is no longer in effect. In fact, the superiority of the Law of Christ is seen by the fact that it will never be rendered inoperative.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Paul sheds more light on this in his letter to the Ephesians (2:11-16; 3:6), explaining that God has made certain covenants with the Jewish people. (In fact, God made four unconditional, eternal covenants with Israel: the Abrahamic, the Palestinian, the Davidic, and New Covenants.) All of God’s blessings, both material and spiritual, are mediated by means of these four Jewish covenants, which are eternal, as well as unconditional.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]At the same time, Paul points out that God added a fifth covenant: temporary and conditional, this is the Mosaic Covenant containing the Mosaic Law. According to Paul, the Mosaic Law served as a wall of partition (Eph. 2:15). And this is yet another purpose of the Law (one which we alluded to earlier): to serve as a wall of partition to keep Gentiles, as Gentiles, from enjoying Jewish spiritual blessings. In the Old Testament, if a Gentile wished to become a recipient of Jewish spiritual blessings, he would need to take upon himself the entire obligation of the Law – from circumcision to living as every other Jew lived. Only a Gentile who converted to Judaism could enjoy the blessings of the Jewish covenants. If the Mosaic Law were still in effect, there would still be a wall of partition to maintain this distinction between Jews and Gentiles. But the wall of partition was broken down with the death of Christ; again, the wall of partition was the Mosaic Law, and so the Law of Moses was rendered inoperative. Now, Gentiles as Gentiles, on the basis of faith, can and do enjoy Jewish spiritual (though not physical) blessings by becoming fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]To summarize, the Law is a unit comprised of 613 commandments, and all of it has been invalidated. No commandment has continued beyond the cross of Yeshua. The Law exists and can be used as a teaching tool to show God’s standard of righteousness and our sinfulness and need of substitutionary atonement. It can be used to point one to Christ (Gal. 3:23-25). It has, however, completely ceased to function as an authority over individuals. Hebrews 8:1-13 draws a parallel between the Mosaic Law and the New Covenant: The writer, quoting Jeremiah 31:31-34, states that as soon as a “new†covenant was enacted, it rendered the Mosaic Covenant the “old†one – and that which is old is nigh unto vanishing away (v. 13). The Mosaic Law grew old under Jeremiah and vanished away when Messiah died.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]The Jewish Believer Is Under A New Law[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]The Law of Moses has been done away with, and we are now under a new law. This new law is called the Law of Christ in Galatians 6:2, and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Romans 8:2. This is a brand new law totally separate from the Law of Moses. The Law of Christ contains all the commandments applicable to a New Testament believer.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]The reason there is so much confusion over the relationship of the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ is that the two have many similar commandments, prompting many to conclude that certain sections of the Law have, therefore, been retained. But we have already shown that this cannot be so, and the explanation for the sameness of the commandments is to be found elsewhere.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]First, we must realize that there are a number of covenants in the Bible, including the Edenic, Adamic, Noahic, Mosaic, and New. A new covenant will always contain some of the same commandments as the previous covenant, but this does not mean that the previous covenant is still in effect. While certain commandments of the Adamic Covenant were also part of the earlier Edenic Covenant, it does not mean that the Edenic Covenant was still partially in force; on the contrary, it ceased to function with the Fall of man. The same is true when we compare the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ. There are many similar commandments. For example, nine of the Ten Commandments are to be found in the Law of Christ, but this does not mean that the Law of Moses is still in force.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Let me illustrate this by using an example which you may have also experienced. I received my first driver’s license in the State of California; as long as I drove in California, I was subject to the traffic laws of that state. But two years later, I moved to New York. Once I left California, I ceased to be under California’s traffic laws. The traffic laws of that state were rendered inoperative in my case. Now my driving was subject to a new law – the traffic laws of the State of New York. There were many laws that were different: In California, I was permitted to make a right turn at a red light after stopping and yielding the right-of-way. But in New York this was not permitted. On the other hand, there were many similar laws between the two states, such as the edict to stop at red lights. However, when I stopped for a red light in New York, I did not do so in obedience to the State of California as I once had, but in obedience to the State of New York. Likewise, if I went through a red light without stopping, I was not guilty of breaking California law but New York law. Many laws were similar, but they were, nevertheless, under two distinctly different systems.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]The Law of Moses has been nullified, and we are now under the Law of Christ. There are many different commandments: The Law of Moses did not permit one to eat pork, but the Law of Christ does. There are many similar commandments as well, but they are in two separate systems. If we do not kill or steal, this is not because of the Law of Moses but because of the Law of Christ. Conversely, if I do steal, I am not guilty of breaking the Law of Moses but the Law of Christ.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]For believers, this understanding can resolve many issues – such as women wearing pants, the Sabbath, and tithing. As the commandments concerning these things are based on the Law of Moses, then they have no validity for the New Testament believer. The Law of Christ is now the rule of life for the individual New Testament believer.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]The Principle of Freedom[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]What we are saying is that the believer in Yeshua Hamashiach is free from the necessity of keeping any commandment of the Law of Moses. But it is crucial to note that he is also free to keep parts of the Mosaic Law if he so desires.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]The biblical basis for this freedom to keep the Law is evident in the actions of Paul, the greatest exponent of freedom from the Law. His vow in Acts 18:18 is based on Numbers 6:2, 5, 9 and 18. His desire to be in Jerusalem for Pentecost in Acts 20:16 is based on Deuteronomy 16:16. The strongest example is Acts 21:17-26, where we see Paul himself keeping the Law.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]So, if a Jewish believer feels the need to refrain from eating pork, for example, he is free to do so. The same is true for all the other commandments. However, there are two dangers that must be avoided by the Messianic Jew who chooses to keep portions of the Law of Moses: One is the belief that one who does so is contributing to his own justification and sanctification. This is false and must be avoided. The second danger is that one may demand or expect others to also keep the Law. This is equally wrong and borders on legalism. The one who exercises his freedom to keep the Law must recognize and respect another’s freedom not to do the same.[/SIZE][/FONT]

ok i think that is where drew is coming from. the op is saying we can use the law to teach what sin is. that is all. and take note(where drew errs) is the law wasnt meant to save at all!

 

[for_his_glory]

Have any of you actually sat down and read each and everyone of the 613 laws? I have and also know that many of the laws were added to by the Pharisees and Scribes to justify their own self righteous iniquities for their own justifications. Gods grace was only relevant to those laws he gave Moses as each law was given to teach Gods laws of obedience to him that we would remain sinless before God.

Since the laws were established for the Israelite nation and not for the Gentile Nation grace had to be extended to the Gentile nations in the form of Gods Spirit through the birth, death and resurrection of his Spirit come in the flesh of man, Jesus Christ, so that everyone no matter who they were or are can come to the salvation of God for the remission of their sins so grace can be abound in all.

The laws are not dead to us, but fulfilled in Christ that we should live in love as our greatest commandment and if we could just follow this one simple law we should be able to follow all the law.

 

[jasoncran]

Have any of you actually sat down and read each and everyone of the 613 laws? I have and also know that many of the laws were added to by the Pharisees and Scribes to justify their own self righteous iniquities for their own justifications. Gods grace was only relevant to those laws he gave Moses as each law was given to teach Gods laws of obedience to him that we would remain sinless before God.

Since the laws were established for the Israelite nation and not for the Gentile Nation grace had to be extended to the Gentile nations in the form of Gods Spirit through the birth, death and resurrection of his Spirit come in the flesh of man, Jesus Christ, so that everyone no matter who they were or are can come to the salvation of God for the remission of their sins so grace can be abound in all.

The laws are not dead to us, but fulfilled in Christ that we should live in love as our greatest commandment and if we could just follow this one simple law we should be able to follow all the law.

do tell what you would tell the athiest in asia that never heard of christ what sin is?

he fornicates, he lies and so on.

where do you go?

preach those are sins? first off you have to establish theres is a god and that those are sins and one can look to the ot or the nt the op where the law can be used is sufficient.

i can say that the the god hates fornication and he hates sin and has made a way out of it. using the law in that manner.

that is what hitch and reba are saying.

 

[jasoncran]

actually that site refutes that i posted.its from a jewish messianic site.

it says moses gave all the 613 laws.

where and which ones are pharisitical?

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Mitzvot.htm

hmm where in the nt is the incest banned?

i dont recall any command from paul on that. one could loosely aplly romans one but that lists mainly homosexuality not incest.

 

[ivdavid]

I have mainly 2 points to make here -

Point 1. The "law" has more than one usage. It could refer to the set of commandments given by God through Moses. This is the "WHAT". It could also refer to an individual law given by God, dictating the "HOW" these commandments must be kept - distinguishing between "by the flesh(self)" and "by the Spirit(God)".

I'd like to give a crude illustration here - and it's simply drawn for reference..I'm not stating any facts here -

If I were to state the 14 CF Terms of Services(ToS Section 2) , one could call these as a "law(1)" of CF, written on a webpage. This is a set of Do and Dont commandments on this website.

But if I were to pass an overarching "law(2)" that involves and governs all these 14 commandments, yet not being one of them - such as -

"If you keep all these commandments, you will be welcomed here ; if you do not keep all these commandments, you will be banned.",

This above overarching law(2) is still a "law" and yet it doesn't simply refer to a set of commandments - it refers to an order followed here like the "law" of gravity.

Now, if I were to say that you are no longer under law(2), one may interpret it in 2 ways depending on what he sees as emphasized in the original law(2).

If the emphasis in the law(2) is this -
"If you keep all these commandments, you will be welcomed here."
One may interpret an end of this law(2) to mean this -
"You no longer need to keep all these commandments to be welcomed here."

On the other hand, if the emphasis is seen as this -
"If you keep all these commandments, you will be welcomed here."
One may interpret an end of this law(2) to mean this -
"You no longer need to keep all these commandments to be welcomed here."

The "You" here refers to "the self/ the flesh" ; the alternate agent being God working in you - the "Christ IN you".

Interpretation 1 leads to the debate over whether the commandments are still in force today or not. Interpretation 2 leads to no such debate - the commandments are very much in force even today, the agent is what has changed.

A Scriptural rendering of the above analogy could be found in this earlier post.

The above Interpretation 1 leads to much confusion, while Interpretation 2 makes complete sense. God giving us a law to show that "our self/flesh" cannot keep it leads us to question why we cannot keep it. Therein we recognize the sinfulness of sin in us, which enslaves us into corruption and leads us to death - the law of sin and death. (If one wishes, they may refer to this post too.)

But thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord - He is mighty to work in us, where He sets us free from the power and guilt of sin and where He causes us to walk in His ways and where He gives us security and assurance of our salvation based on what works He has done and does for us.

Now, when I do say that the entire set of commandments given by God through Moses is still valid today, I have to stress equally on my second point too -

Point 2. The Law(1) is Spiritual. I've elaborated on this in this post.