LDS/Mormon Leaders Charge For Worthiness & Rob Poor

[Comprehender]

Well, in the context it pointed out that people were poor because they couldn't handle their own needs. This included people below the poverty line, yes, but also extended to people who didn't understand management of money, no matter how much their income was, otherwise. The book also pointed out that there are needs that aren't met by dollars & cents. People who are poor are also not receiving these needs, either: love among them.

The book was impressive in its explanations. At least it impressed me.

It does sound impressive & puts "wealth" in perspective.
Having visited poor areas, I noticed that some cultures were richer than us in some ways... like their sense of community - much less loneliness than here in the US (overall, it seemed).

...On the other hand, my encounters with real Mormons have run quite a range, all the way down to unflattering witness to people under the thumbs of others in their families.

I consider myself Mormon still, as do many who don't embrace every LDS doctrine.
I agree that as with any group, the individuals within it vary a lot.

As Mormons, we are taught that Mormons are better than "non-members" because "we have & live the truth" which I'm realizing more how false it is. No doubt, overall, as a group, Mormons tend to have higher standards (no premarital sex, no alcohol, no smoking, etc.)... Still, there are harmful "evils" in the LDS church & culture that are not only permeating the group, but have little hope of being remedied, since they are being actively denied. (IE: Utah leads the nation in anti-depressants & is high statistically for other mental health issues.)

It is no real evil to be imperfect, but denying one's imperfection is the real evil... Like on the cross, Jesus stood between 2 thieves (who I think represent 2 possible ways of responding to adversary)... One thief says to Jesus (paraphrasing), "If you're so powerful, save us & get us out of this situation!" Then the other thief reprimands the 1st thief, "We deserve this, but this man is innocent." Then he says to Jesus, "Please remember me after death." And Jesus says to the thief who was humble enough to admit he was a sinner, "You will be with me in Paradise."

I really wish I could gather a better insight into Jesus' compassion. One of the books I've relied on for years, a sample chapter is available on-Web.

Love Walked Among Us, Paul Miller

It's not that I'm great at any of this, I'm constantly finding out how little I know about this stuff. Much of my background is unrelated to it.

That sounds like an impressive & inspiring book!
My favorite subject is love, which God is.
And I think our greatest challenge in life is learning how best to love others AND ourselves in balance and harmony.

 

[Deborah13]

Good point, Pizzaguy.
I've never heard of any church doing that either, although I've known many people who do.
I wish churches did give at least 1/3 of donations to those in need as instructed in Deut 14:28-29.
If they did, they'd be more God-like.

The LDS church is unique in that it charges its members for worthiness.
In the LDS/Mormon church, tithing (10% of members' gross income) is not considered optional - but mandetory to be a "member in good standing" & to be included in certain meetings, rituals and callings & LDS leaders teach that members must pay this percentage of their income to THEM, in order to be worthy of the celestial kingdom and to enter the LDS temple.
I don't know any other church that is so strict, corrupt & extreme as the LDS/Mormon church is regarding tithing, & still brags of being the "only true & living church on earth."

It's not the church that's suppose to give the third. Read Deut. It's the individual that stores up their tithe and gives it out.

 

[Deborah13]

LDS Leaders Charge Extra $ For Worthiness & Rob Poor

This isn't anything new, but it's important for all (both lds "members" & "nonmembers") to realize...
LDS leaders warped the law of tithing in several ways:

1. Tithing was never commanded by Jesus & Jesus NEVER charged anyone for anything. He taught we have the kingdom of God within us, & not in churches or even temples... "know ye not that ye are the temple of God and the spirit dwells in you?"
To be considered celestially (top heaven) worthy and temple worthy, LDS leaders require members must pay 10% of their gross income to LDS leaders.

2. Deuteronomy 14:28-29 instructs that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given for those in need.
LDS leaders want to force members to obey the law of tithing, but only the part they like. They don't teach this scripture & infact have gone to the effort of hiding this scripture, leaving it out of LDS scripture book in the topical guides under "tithing." They have openly declared that tithes are not charity - but for building churches, temples & whatever the church wants to use it for. They have repeteatedly reminded members to pay their 10% to "the Lord" (to THEM) & to pay EXTRA for the poor (fast offering/humanitarian donations through the hidden church finances).

3. Scriptures state that tithes are based on "increase" & "interest"... NOT "income."
There is a difference.
IE: 2 men work at the same job, same income amount.
1 man lives at home & his parents pay all bills for him, thus all of his income is "increase."
The 2nd man is the sole provider of a family of 9 & after paying all necessities, has little left over as "increase/interest."
Yet, LDS leaders exploit, by demanding the same amount of money from each.

4. LDS leaders keep finances dark and secret, answering to nobody. They can spend money however & whenever they want and members cannot openly criticize without being excommunicated.



If you are currently giving LDS leaders tithes, please direct at least 1/3 to those in need (however you feel inspired). If you know anyone else who is, please encourage them to do so as well.
There are many suffering...almost 1 BILLION chronically hungry, tens of thousands dying EVERY DAY.
There are many ways to help & many hands make light work!

Don't feel too bad. I have never heard of any church or evangelist teach tithing correctly. They push Malichi a lot it appeals to the greed in people or to those desperate for financial help from God or to those who live by the law (fear) rather than grace through Christ.
But I blame myself and the people who tithe the way they do for not reading God's Word for ourselves. Every 7th year the fields rested there was no crop. In the third year the stored up their tithe where they lived and distributed it to their local priest, the stranger, the poor, the widow, and the fatherless.
The more money a church brings in the higher the salary goes for the pastor, etc. in many organizations.
Paul instructs us first to give whats in our hearts not out of compulsion, not by law.
He says to provide for the pastors, the teachers (I believe) and the singers. He mentions that he would be within his rights to ask for money from the church so that would include traveling teachers such as evangelists.
We are not restricted in any way. We are not under the old covenant of the law, but the covenant of grace. God leaves it to us to decide and trost that Christ working in our spirits and in our hearts will lead us to be generous in our giving.
I commend, if I may, you for your devotion to the truth of the scripture and your compassion and care for those less fortunate than you. God bless you as you grow in your love of God and your neighbor.

 

[Deborah13]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/...angelical-leaders-say-bible-requires-tithing/

42% of evangelical groups say the Bible requires tithing.

It may be useful to note as well, Judaism considers tithing a requirement (as it is admittedly law). Islam has a tithing type of requirement as well.

Sorry but Jews do not tithe. Who would they tithe to? There is no longer a Levitical priesthood or a temple to take the tithe too. They have rabbis (teachers) they are not priests. Levitical priesthood was passed down by blood generational.
However, they have annual dues they pay to maintain the synoguge (sp?), etc. Then they are encouraged to give 10% (but never more than 20%) to charities of their choice. However, they are allowed to deducted their son's religious education expenses from the 10%.

 

[Deborah13]

I am an ex-Mormon, and tithing is a serious issue with many members for and against. While paying 10% for someone on low income as I am was a needed chunkout of my money each month it paled in comparison to the annual meeting with the bishop to check to see if your tithes were up-to-date. Meeting a tax official was less painful.

Yes,the tithes were meant to help the needy, pay for missionaries and buid temples, so who, in the Church got a revelation to build a shopping mall???

I'm not knocking the LDS (leave that to the multitude of anti mormon sites out there), but. This tithing issue, and no one "official" being able to have their story straight was one of the reasons left.

Abraham paid tithes of all, but I think it was Jacob who gave 10% of what he had. But I'm sure that was annually.

Abraham and Jacob lived by grace, they did not live under the Mosaic Law, just like us. Tithing is mentioned twice before the law. You are right once with Abe and once Jacob. They are both interesting stories.
Abraham went to war against several kings, 5 I think, one was the king of Sodom. He was victorious. The king and priest of Salem (Peace) Melchizedek, brought wine and bread to Abraham after the battles. Abraham gave Melchizedek a tithe (tenth) of the SPOILS. He kept back what his captains had won and returned the rest to the King of Sodom. He kept nothing for himself. (you will have to read why he did this).
Jacob had to run away from Esua to his mother's relatives. On the way he promised God that if God would keep him safe that when he returned to his father house he would give God a tithe (tenth). When he returned 20 years later with many in his flock we are not told if he did this or not. I believe he did.
The only reason I believe we are to tithe (tenth) of our income is because of Abraham in Gen 14 and tying that in with Hebrews where it talks about Jesus and Melchizedek being priests not of the Levitical priesthood.
Even then we are not to do this unless that's what's in our hearts (per the Apostle Paul). God loves cheerful givers. 2 Cr 9:7 He looks at our hearts.

 

[heymikey80]

It does sound impressive & puts "wealth" in perspective.
Having visited poor areas, I noticed that some cultures were richer than us in some ways... like their sense of community - much less loneliness than here in the US (overall, it seemed).

Yes. What surprised me decades ago on reading was that we can find the same issues within each family, and taking a redemptive role toward any difficulty can reform both sides for the better.

I went looking, and it appears the book I have is out of print. However, there's a follow-on by one of the authors that presents more of a devotional. For me it was more knowing the practical ropes. The follow-on book seems better for personal study -- as long as you realize, the author fully intends to put rubber to the road, and isn't talking about pipe dreams. I saw it carried out, and deacons at my church also follow this later book.

It's called "Ministries of Mercy // The Call of the Jericho Road" by Timothy J. Keller.

I consider myself Mormon still, as do many who don't embrace every LDS doctrine.
I agree that as with any group, the individuals within it vary a lot.

As Mormons, we are taught that Mormons are better than "non-members" because "we have & live the truth" which I'm realizing more how false it is.

Yeah, that's something of a religious superiority thing. Many churches have a faction that'll present their arguments like that as well. Some of the "fun" ones are arguments that "We're more humble" (!), or another, that "Our theology makes us better, though we aren't really any better".

Frankly, we're all on pretty-much the same level.

No doubt, overall, as a group, Mormons tend to have higher standards (no premarital sex, no alcohol, no smoking, etc.)...

Many have moral standards; the questions are numerous as to how they're followed and enforced. Jesus demands that the outward behavior without inward submission is the worst kind of sin, hypocrisy, misrepresentation of God's character.

Still, there are harmful "evils" in the LDS church & culture that are not only permeating the group, but have little hope of being remedied, since they are being actively denied. (IE: Utah leads the nation in anti-depressants & is high statistically for other mental health issues.)

I'd tend to attribute that to performance anxiety, the disconnect between heart and hand. I've also been in churches where behavior was important. It is very stressful.

My wife also relates situations where she was on an airline flight with a large group of Mormon kids returning to college. In "rumspringa" fashion characteristic of the Amish, the flight attendants had to repeatedly call on the rowdy group to calm down. My wife asked the kid next to her about their consumption of caffeine on the flight as well: she received an odd answer she'd heard from Muslims as well, that God didn't care what they did anonymously.

It is no real evil to be imperfect, but denying one's imperfection is the real evil...

I think I understand your position. I'd point out, anything that is a sinful practice is also an evil practice; but it's not irredeemable. The concept God has confronted us with is that we should be redeemed. And denying sin leaves the sin irredeemable.

In fact I'm at the point of thinking that redemption is the unifying concept in Christianity. I've been working through that idea for at least a decade and a half, and I think it's the point in most of my thinking about all this. Keller's book fits neatly into that idea, but I haven't noticed where he says it directly.

 

[Comprehender]

I commend, if I may, you for your devotion to the truth of the scripture and your compassion and care for those less fortunate than you. God bless you as you grow in your love of God and your neighbor.

Thank you, Deborah.
I know I have much I can improve in that regard, still.

 

[Comprehender]

Many have moral standards; the questions are numerous as to how they're followed and enforced. Jesus demands that the outward behavior without inward submission is the worst kind of sin, hypocrisy, misrepresentation of God's character.

I'd tend to attribute that to performance anxiety, the disconnect between heart and hand. I've also been in churches where behavior was important. It is very stressful.

You're exactly right...
I think one's conscious (aligning to our best ability what we know with what we do) is delicate & cannot take too much BS before mental illness kicks in.
Unrealistic expectations (esp. socially) can cause one to feel guilty when they have no reason to.

...In fact I'm at the point of thinking that redemption is the unifying concept in Christianity...

I hope you don't mind if I question you about this.
Why do we need to be redeemed, if God (who is love) intended us to be perfectly imperfect?
Who is Christ? If Jesus said, "Come follow me", does that mean we can be "Christ-like" - "put on the mind of Christ"?
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42915