Let’s Have A MIGHTY Christmas This Year!

[christian_soldier]

Let's Have A MIGHTY Christmas This Year!

Action required!

 

[John]

Good lord :o thats horrible. politically correctness, ha, what a joke.

 

[christian_soldier]

Good lord :o thats horrible. politically correctness, ha, what a joke.

Yeap. Tragic comedy.

I'm proud of Mr. Butler for Standing Up. He's been fighting his local officials over this stuff for a while now.

I'm adding his email addy to the blog post, but, here it is, too, if anyone whats to send him a 'well-done'.

PButler@grucci.com

 

[christian_soldier]

All righty, then...who has called or sent e-mails? Anyone? :fadein:

 

[RND]

I wonder if it matters that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th and that the origins of Christmas are pagan in origin?

 

[Rick W]

I think we need to keep the Christmas posts from the past, pack them up, store them somewhere then break them out every year during the Christmas season saving a lot of time for everyone.
:

 

[handy]

I think we need to keep the Christmas posts from the past, pack them up, store them somewhere then break them out every year during the Christmas season saving a lot of time for everyone.
:

:wink: Good idea, Rick, since there are a lot of folks who want to debate the same arguments year after year after year.

Christian Soldier, I haven't sent an email to Butler, but I admire his stand. There might be good reasons why some would choose not to celebrate Christmas. Political Correctness isn't one of them. Also, if one doesn't want to celebrate Christmas, fine, but there's no reason to force everyone else into "compliance".

 

[Gabe]

All righty, then...who has called or sent e-mails? Anyone? :fadein:

i have sent e-mails (i cannot call because i do not live in the US and can do without the extra bills)!!

To me, it does not matter if the 25th of December is not Christ's actual birth-date. Non-Christians who oppose Christmas also do not care, they just want the word "Christ" to disappear: which it eventually will (and not just from the word "Christmas") if Christians do not speak-up.

Gabriel

 

[handy]

[quote="christian_soldier":1heqkwr1]All righty, then...who has called or sent e-mails? Anyone? :fadein:

i have sent e-mails (i cannot call because i do not live in the US and can do without the extra bills)!!

To me, it does not matter if the 25th of December is not Christ's actual birth-date. Non-Christians who oppose Christmas also do not care, they just want the word "Christ" to disappear: which it eventually will (and not just from the word "Christmas") if Christians do not speak-up.

Gabriel[/quote:1heqkwr1]

I agree, Gabriel. The issue really isn't when was Christ born. The issue is the forcing of all things Christian from the public discourse. The issue is letting the world get by with acting like Christianity is a bad thing, something to be shamed out of existence. It can happen faster than you might think.

 

[RND]

I agree, Gabriel. The issue really isn't when was Christ born. The issue is the forcing of all things Christian from the public discourse. The issue is letting the world get by with acting like Christianity is a bad thing, something to be shamed out of existence. It can happen faster than you might think.

Handy, shouldn't we actually "rejoice" when we see these things happening instead of whining and complaining that someone wants to take away our precious "traditions of men?"

Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Luke 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward [is] great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

 

[Gabe]

It is not the "traditions of men" that they are trying to remove from this world, it's Christ.

And who's whining and complaining? We are only voicing our opinions. Or does any view contrary to your's constitute whining?

 

[RND]

It is not the "traditions of men" that they are trying to remove from this world, it's Christ.

As I'm sure you know modern Christmas is the result of a pagan ritual called Saturnalia that was adopted by the "church." It certainly wasn't invented as a reminder of Jesus' birthday. That said when you see them wanting to "remove Christ" you should be joyous and glad.

And who's whining and complaining? We are only voicing our opinions.

When they wear spitting on Jesus' face and beating Him did He ever "voice His opinion?"

Or does any view contrary to your's constitute whining?

Not my view, but the Bible's teaching.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Pet 2:20 For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God.

 

[handy]

This is how I approach these issues: I look at how God handled Israel when Israel was a flirty, adulterous wife. God told Israel that He would send wrath upon her if she didn't straighten up. If Israel, as a nation, as a people, straightend up, stood firm against those who would deny God, then God would graciously stay the judgment that He knew would come. Finally there came a time when Israel was just too far gone, and while there remained a faithful remnant, God allowed judgment to fall.

I don't believe that we are on a fateful journey to doomsday. I do believe that we are in the last days, yes, but I don't think that there is a set time, day and hour that God will have judgment fall no matter what. If the people who are called by His name (and America still considers herself a "Christian" nation) repent and stand firm against those who would deny God, then I think we can again return to His blessings. If not, well, then when the day comes that we are truly persecuted in the way the Lord is speaking of (and in spite of the attacks against Christmas, I don't think we're there yet, just headed in that direction), why then I will rejoice, knowing that all is in His hands.

Meanwhile, I don't see anyting remotely "holy" about just standing by and letting the PC crowd determine what will and will not be allowed in the public discourse. Nor do I 'whine' or 'complain'. I just particpate every year in our local public school's Christmas program in which all the kids that go to our school not only sing Jingle Bells, but they actually retell the entire story of Mary, Joseph and Jesus in Bethelhem, complete with shepherds, angels, and the Magi. Should the ACLU or anyone else try to tell us that our kids cannot retell this historical and spiritual event, then I'll fight. Not whine. Not complain. But FIGHT. As I did when they tried to get the "Good News Club" an afterschool bible club that meets every Monday at the school, kicked out. My method of 'fighting' was to copy off some well researched Supreme Court decisions that made it perfectly clear that there was nothing unConstitutional about the Good News Club and that if they tried to close it down, I would contact the Alliance Defense Fund. That was the end of that story. It took place about 6 years ago, and the kids have met every Monday during the school year for Bible study since.

As far as Christmas being a tradition of men, what do you think is being attacked and diminished by the PC crowd, the tradition or the Person for whom the tradition stands? If Christmas were as secularized and devoid of all Christian meaning, it wouldn't be an issue. Halloween proves this, Halloween was another pagan holiday that the Church Chrisitanized into All Hallow's Eve, in preparation for all Saint's Day. The church days are largely forgotten and Halloween is a totally secular holiday, insofar as the vast majority of folks participate in it. (I am NOT going to get into what the Wiccan's choose to do. They tend to make their religion up as they go along anyway.) And, Halloween is in nobody's cross-hairs, except for the Christians who don't participate for the obvious reasons. (It is saying something that the more Christians decry Halloween, the more popular the holiday becomes.)

But, try as they might, Christ has never been separated from Christmas. There are still millions of people, especially children, who celebrate the fact that God Himself became Incarnate and came to this earth, to be raised as a human for the purpose of saving us from our sin. Kid's especially are impacted by this, because it means that God was, for a time in history, one of them. As many as have tried, they still can't quite divorce the gospel from Christmas. This is why there is a fight, and a vigourious one, to get rid of Christmas all together.

 

[Vic C.]

I wonder if it matters that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th and that the origins of Christmas are pagan in origin?

RND, I understand your position. I believe myself that Jesus was born sometime around the Fall feasts. This however is sort of a new concept. For whatever reasons, which could be discussed in another thread and without the self righteousness and finger pointing, this was either not revealed to man or was information held back by man.

If people know the truth and yet still want to do all the lights and trees and all the other customs that go with this holiday, shouldn't that be between them and God?

Also, you are still missing the point. Those who desire to take any Christian element out of this holiday are what John called "antichrists". Their goal is not to remove Christ from this Christmas and move the holiday to another, more "biblically correct" date; their goal is to remove the mere mention of Jesus and God from the public forum...PERIOD!

 

[Gabe]

^I agree with both posts.

Yes, I am aware of this but it is not Saturnalia that they are trying to remove, it is Christ.

Regardless of what it was invented for, it IS a reminder of Christ's birth to the majority of Christians in this world.

Maybe I should be glad and rejoice when I see them wanting to remove Christ, but that does not mean I should agree with them and not voice my objections.

 

[handy]

When they were spitting on Jesus' face and beating Him did He ever "voice His opinion?"

This brings up a good point. We know from Ecclesiastes that there is a time to speak and a time to be quiet. Jesus was (of course) the Master at knowing which was which. (He certainly knew when to voice His opinions and He used a whip to get the point across at least once.)

We also need to know when to speak and when not to. It's my opinion that now is a time to speak out and not let the PC crowd (and I agree Vic, they really are anti-christs) determine public discourse. There will come a time when speaking will do no good. That will be the day to remember that we do have cause to rejoice and be glad. Meanwhile, again in my own opinion, it is a mockery of the grace and blessings that God has blessed us with to stand by and do nothing in the face of those who want to strip the rights of Christians to share the gospel by whatever story or day or season we see fit to do so.

 

[RND]

When they were spitting on Jesus' face and beating Him did He ever "voice His opinion?"

This brings up a good point. We know from Ecclesiastes that there is a time to speak and a time to be quiet. Jesus was (of course) the Master at knowing which was which. (He certainly knew when to voice His opinions and He used a whip to get the point across at least once.)

We also need to know when to speak and when not to. It's my opinion that now is a time to speak out and not let the PC crowd (and I agree Vic, they really are anti-christs) determine public discourse. There will come a time when speaking will do no good. That will be the day to remember that we do have cause to rejoice and be glad. Meanwhile, again in my own opinion, it is a mockery of the grace and blessings that God has blessed us with to stand by and do nothing in the face of those who want to strip the rights of Christians to share the gospel by whatever story or day or season we see fit to do so.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It's hard to "gainsay" Paul here.

Psa 1:1 Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. Psa 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

No where in scripture are we commanded to fight those that wish to do us harm. Our job is to lift the light of love of Jesus Christ which is the exact way that God deals with us.

If you don't like secular public school encroaching on your supposed right of free speech to worship how you want to worship I suggest enrolling the little ones in a private Christian school that doesn't take funds from the government. Otherwise you are fighting a losing battle.

handy, would you be in favor of a government rule that required everyone to rest from work on a particular day?

 

[handy]

We know that our fight isn't against people but rather against the forces of darkness and the wiles of the devil, who spreads lies and fear in the hearts of people. (Of course, these forces use willing people to carry out their works of darkness.) It is precisely because Christmas is the story of God loving the world so much that He sent His Son to this world that the forces of evil wish to shut it out of the public domain.

So, we have here in our little town a school which has been in operation since 1910. Each and every year it has been in operation the school children have put on a Christmas show in which the story of Jesus' birth has been acted out in word (yes, the Bible is read) and in song (yes, the Christian hymns are sung).

When we fight, what is our 'weapon'? Sure we know; the Armor of God: Truth, Righteousness, the Gospel, Faith, Salvation and the Word.

Now, we have these kids who in Truth have, not a 'supposed' but a very real freedom of religion and speech guaranteed them by this little document known as the Constitution, putting on a public Christmas show in which the Gospel of God loving the world so much that He sent His Son is publically declared, exercising their faith, reading the Word and engaging in prayer.

Explain to me again exactly what is wrong about this? I seemed to have missed that part, because I cannot for the life of me understand why I should take my kids from this school and enroll them in a Christian school so that their exercise of faith, truth, gospel and word can be relegated to the ranks of 'preaching to the choir'.

Listen, I understand that some Christians choose not to celebrate Christmas and have biblically based reasons for not doing so. Fine. I have no problem whatever with Christians who choose not to celebrate any holiday, special day, Sabbath day or whatever day. But, there is NOT a Biblical case to be made to shut down those of us who choose to stand up for the public celebration of Christmas. There simply isn't.

 

[RND]

But, there is NOT a Biblical case to be made to shut down those of us who choose to stand up for the public celebration of Christmas. There simply isn't.

Sure there is! Christians have been warned that they will be hated for Jesus' namesake. Count it as joyful when this happens. Turn the other cheek. Look up, for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[handy]

Let me point out what I perceive to be a flaw in your logic here (keeping in mind that I don't think you're an illogical person, just a flaw in this particular argument):

The evil one's aren't going to hate me for 'turning the other cheek' and meekly allowing them to strike out Christmas in place of a "Holiday Season". As a matter of fact, they'll love me for that. What they will hate is when I stand firm for the gospel of the season. Besides, I find I can stand and rejoice at the same time. It's not an either/or situation.