Leviticus dilema for Christians.

[Chris]

I came across a story recently where where someone was using verses in Leviticus to say its was wrong to do a certain sexual activity on a radio show, and thereby condemn the activity a being one God could not condone. A listener responded cleverly and it made me wonder how we as Christians treat this if we were to use verses the same way.

How do we as Christians pick out the verses in Leviticus to apply to what we want without the two edged sword of obeying the other laws? If we say one thing isn't important does the same go for the others?


This is what gave me the idea for this and it is sorta funny as a story but at the same time it gave me a dilemma about how I can apply Leviticus laws to mine or anyone else's life.


Any thoughts?

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, written by a US man, and posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] Dear Dr. Laura:[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination … End of debate.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif]
[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif]

[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I fmite them?

[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees' of abomination?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] Your adoring fan.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,MS Sans Serif] James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia.
PS (It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian)[/FONT]​

 

[Hitch]

Could God make a rock so big that He Himself couldnt lift it?

 

[smaller]

The Law beyond any doubting proves 'all mankind' SINNERS.

Personally I find sinners condemning other sinners to be the actions of hypocrites.

Fact about sin? We 'all' have it, so get over it. No one is going to make their 'sin' go away. We all remain with the presence of indwelling sin ALL THE DAYS of our lives. IN some their sin is openly apparent. In others it hides in the mind where 'the deception' can not be as easily seen.

So, what you speak of is 'selective application.' Using the Law to justify ones self because they are not 'homosexual' or 'murderers.'

But few such sin condemners see that in their own heart they are murdering homosexuals for their 'sins.' And murderers for their sins. All the while completely IGNORING their own sins. That is simply hypocrisy, plain and simple.

There arises then a great difficulty about matters of sin. As believers we can NOT justify ANY sin. The 'liberal license' card in faith can never be openly extended to ANY sin. Yet we 'all' have it.

And therein resides the tensions of life in faith. We can't excuse sin and we can't say we don't have it. In other words we are basically STUCK with the fact of it's existence.

Paul defined this condition for himself as having 'evil present' with him. In this way he DIVIDED himself from that working and did not let that EVIL reign over him, even WHILE CARRYING IT. We are advised to NOT let 'sin' reign in our mortal bodies because it IS THERE to REIGN.

If we say to ANY sin, yeah, no problem...there will always shortly be an eruption of same. Churches have struggled with these matters from the beginning. So did Israel. So is the present condition of MAN.

Condemn sin in others and ignore it in ourselves and we are hypocrites. Condone sin in others and ourselves and it soon rules.

THIS IS THE DYNAMIC of SIN and FAITH. It is meant to show us 'better ways.'

From this exercise we experience 'forgiveness.' We can share in the extensions of MERCY. We can HOPE for BETTER. God LOVES sinners. SO CAN WE.

These are the greater principles of faith that extend beyond and OVER RULE sin.

The fact is if we are called, we are called to MERCY, FORGIVENESS, HOPE, FAITH AND LOVE regardless of SIN, EVIL AND DEATH.

This is the Christian quest. There is GREAT INTERNAL GAIN with the LARGER values.

What is sin but a working to be discarded in Christ? All of it will be AS NOTHING.

That all being said I have much better things to do than to use my faith to homobash. I'd suggest any believers who practice this form of faith to take an honest look at yourself first. If you don't find your sin just as bad as anyone else, you're not looking very closely.

If a person is ruled by a sin of sorts, and we are all ruled to a degree in thought, word and deed, that is just not my problem. I hope not to be captured myself to any more than what I already have to carry to my own cross in judgment.

Far be it from me to judge another person for the disobedience that God has bound them to and laid upon them.

The path away from SIN has also been set in the Greater Matters.

enjoy!

s

 

[Sinthesis]

In this economy wouldn't you rather just lease a Canadian?

 

[Hitch]

:toofunny

 

[Sparkey]

The Law beyond any doubting proves 'all mankind' SINNERS.
Personally I find sinners condemning other sinners to be the actions of hypocrites.
...
Condemn sin in others and ignore it in ourselves and we are hypocrites. Condone sin in others and ourselves and it soon rules.
THIS IS THE DYNAMIC of SIN and FAITH. It is meant to show us 'better ways.'
From this exercise we experience 'forgiveness.' We can share in the extensions of MERCY. We can HOPE for BETTER. God LOVES sinners. SO CAN WE.
These are the greater principles of faith that extend beyond and OVER RULE sin.
The fact is if we are called, we are called to MERCY, FORGIVENESS, HOPE, FAITH AND LOVE regardless of SIN, EVIL AND DEATH.
This is the Christian quest. There is GREAT INTERNAL GAIN with the LARGER values.
...
The path away from SIN has also been set in the Greater Matters.

enjoy!

s

Smaller,

I very much appreciate your reply. Regarding the Weightier Matters (of the law) though there is more than "MERCY, FORGIVENESS, HOPE, FAITH AND LOVE" that we will do well to remember; in Mat 23:23 KJV, we are admonished to consider Judgment and followers of Christ are promised that they will be brought to a place were their judgment is sufficiently honed to the point that they will even judge angels.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, Judgment, Mercy, and Faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."
​

The reasoning ignores that fact that the sinless one did not offer a path toward wickedness and the proliferation of sin. It twists the words of God to ignore Judgment. By way of example and to refute the "Forgiveness Pact" theology that many trust in, think about a Judge before whom a criminal was brought for Justice. The Judge asks, "We know that you are an admitted and convicted mass-murderer, but have you taken Canadians as slaves?"

 

[smaller]

Smaller,

I very much appreciate your reply. Regarding the Weightier Matters (of the law) though there is more than "MERCY, FORGIVENESS, HOPE, FAITH AND LOVE" that we will do well to remember; in Mat 23:23 KJV, we are admonished to consider Judgment and followers of Christ are promised that they will be brought to a place were their judgment is sufficiently honed to the point that they will even judge angels.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, Judgment, Mercy, and Faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."
​

The reasoning ignores that fact that the sinless one did not offer a path toward wickedness and the proliferation of sin. It twists the words of God to ignore Judgment. By way of example and to refute the "Forgiveness Pact" theology that many trust in, think about a Judge before whom a criminal was brought for Justice. The Judge asks, "We know that you are an admitted and convicted mass-murderer, but have you taken Canadians as slaves?"

So, homo bashing front and center then? Oh, and let us heap upon ourselves total forgiveness of ALL of OUR SINS?

I try to remember the conditions of blinded in sin slaves SUCH AS MYSELF prior to belief. They are BOUND by FORCES SINFUL which are DEMONIC in nature. And NONE of them has one single clue that this is their scriptural condition. IN fact even in the churches believers DON'T want to view their own sins, yet alone connect them to THE DEVIL! This just doesn't happen in Church. It doesn't.

Do I look upon those people then with only ONE EYE? No. I understand their condition and I don't see ONLY THEM. I also see 'the other force' at work in them, and I AM NOT EXEMPT from that working either. Neither are you. I am not interested in coverups and deceiving myself about the facts of sin and evil present 'personally.' Those who think they stand should perhaps take more heed, lest they too fall when pronouncing dire judgments upon the sins of others. It is after all MORE than just the slave here my friend. You have a MORE REAL adversary to strain against in THEM and IN YOU.

I will maintain that it is ENTIRELY possible and practical to LOVE the SINNER and HATE and properly JUDGE the sin, and more importantly WHERE it originates from. It is NOT from the SLAVE but the SLAVEMASTER. That would be the DEVIL.

Is the homo then my enemy? Certainly NOT. I have a greater obligation. I know who the enemy is.

The judge and the jury has already made their determinations in these matters.

Call me on a different page. The above is the way I see it and the way I have to live it with 'everyone' believer or unbeliever inclusive of MY OWN SIN.

I have Great Hope that has been given to me in these matters. Those who desire to sit in the judgment seat as sinners eternally judging other sinners will remain a sham of gigantic proportions to me.

I ain't playin.

s

 

[Adullam]

As a still-unslaved Canadian, I find this thread somewhat disconcerting! ;)

(Overheard at a Canadian church conference..."are you slaved brother?)

 

[Davies]

Smaller,

in Mat 23:23 KJV, we are admonished to consider Judgment and followers of Christ are promised that they will be brought to a place were their judgment is sufficiently honed to the point that they will even judge angels.

I went to 1 Corinthians 6 where the question is asked, 'Don't you know you shall judge the angles?' Then a little further down in the passage, the Bible says this:

1 Corinthians 6:7-8
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!

I thought it was interesting how Paul said, "Why do you not rather accept wrong?" He's not condoning sinful behavior, but he's not judging either in the sense of condemnation. I think the judging we are to do is really discernment, something that can be difficult in and of itself. Notice the passage quickly turns the reader to his own sins.

If anything is sobering is the fact we know judgment is coming, and its important to tell people this, but we are told not to judge (Matt. 7:1). I think that before we judge someone, let's make sure we are conformed perfectly to the image of Jesus Christ so we can judge righteously.

- Davies

 

[Hitch]

I went to 1 Corinthians 6 where the question is asked, 'Don't you know you shall judge the angles?' Then a little further down in the passage, the Bible says this:

1 Corinthians 6:7-8
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!

I thought it was interesting how Paul said, "Why do you not rather accept wrong?" He's not condoning sinful behavior, but he's not judging either in the sense of condemnation. I think the judging we are to do is really discernment, something that can be difficult in and of itself. Notice the passage quickly turns the reader to his own sins.

If anything is sobering is the fact we know judgment is coming, and its important to tell people this, but we are told not to judge (Matt. 7:1). I think that before we judge someone, let's make sure we are conformed perfectly to the image of Jesus Christ so we can judge righteously.

- Davies

Hmmmm Do you know of many passages in which the Apostles claim to be ' conformed perfectly to the image of Jesus Christ' ?

 

[Hitch]

So, homo bashing front and center then? Oh, and let us heap upon ourselves total forgiveness of ALL of OUR SINS?

I try to remember the conditions of blinded in sin slaves SUCH AS MYSELF prior to belief. They are BOUND by FORCES SINFUL which are DEMONIC in nature. And NONE of them has one single clue that this is their scriptural condition. IN fact even in the churches believers DON'T want to view their own sins, yet alone connect them to THE DEVIL! This just doesn't happen in Church. It doesn't.

Do I look upon those people then with only ONE EYE? No. I understand their condition and I don't see ONLY THEM. I also see 'the other force' at work in them, and I AM NOT EXEMPT from that working either. Neither are you. I am not interested in coverups and deceiving myself about the facts of sin and evil present 'personally.' Those who think they stand should perhaps take more heed, lest they too fall when pronouncing dire judgments upon the sins of others. It is after all MORE than just the slave here my friend. You have a MORE REAL adversary to strain against in THEM and IN YOU.

I will maintain that it is ENTIRELY possible and practical to LOVE the SINNER and HATE and properly JUDGE the sin, and more importantly WHERE it originates from. It is NOT from the SLAVE but the SLAVEMASTER. That would be the DEVIL.

Is the homo then my enemy? Certainly NOT. I have a greater obligation. I know who the enemy is.

Is the 'homo' God's enemy?

The judge and the jury has already made their determinations in these matters.

Call me on a different page. The above is the way I see it and the way I have to live it with 'everyone' believer or unbeliever inclusive of MY OWN SIN.

I have Great Hope that has been given to me in these matters. Those who desire to sit in the judgment seat as sinners eternally judging other sinners will remain a sham of gigantic proportions to me.

I ain't playin.

s

 

[Davies]

Hmmmm Do you know of many passages in which the Apostles claim to be ' conformed perfectly to the image of Jesus Christ' ?

No. I'm afraid there were no perfect apostles, and I'd imagine they struggled with their sins just as much as we do ours. You're not saying they judged people are you? Perhaps they had a great deal more discernment.

- Davies

 

[Davies]

Is the 'homo' God's enemy?

Before coming to faith in Jesus Christ, yes.

Colossians 1:21
New King James Version (NKJV)
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled

Isn't it amazing that God has chosen to love his enemies?!

- Davies

 

[Drew]

The material from Leviticus is part of the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses has been retired - it simply no longer applies to anybody (and it only ever was given to the nation of Israel in the first place).

So, there is no "dilemma" associated with the Leviticus text. This is not to suggest that there are not other "issues" that will be hard to deal with. But not this one - the Law of Moses is no longer in force.

 

[Chris]

As a still-unslaved Canadian, I find this thread somewhat disconcerting! ;)

(Overheard at a Canadian church conference..."are you slaved brother?)

If it is any consolation you can go shopping yourself south of the border.

 

[Hitch]

Before coming to faith in Jesus Christ, yes.

Colossians 1:21
New King James Version (NKJV)
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled

Isn't it amazing that God has chosen to love his enemies?!

- Davies

Maybe that what Dave whispered in the giants ear.

I've heard that upon surrounding Jericho when the time came they all shouted 'Smile God loves you!' Some coinkidink about the wall eh?

 

[Davies]

Maybe that what Dave whispered in the giants ear.

I'm not sure how David and Goliath fit in, but I wouldn't use that scenario as an example of thou shall not judge. David had a lot of blood on his hands, though, and needed forgiveness for it.

Consider what we would have thought of David after hearing about his sinful behavior regarding Uriah. Without knowing that God had forgiven him, we might have been tempted to judge him for having murdered Uriah. It would be wrong for us to to have judged David even if God had not forgiven him. That doesn't mean would couldn't discern he was a murderer.

- Davies

 

[jasoncran]

well then since i am the only former bi male that has repented that posts openly here.

romans one is also and can be used to bring that sinner to repentance.

theres aslo the talmudic and valid in the ot tradition of the noahide laws that could be used to counter that jewish thing.

only the hebrews were under the llaw but for the gentiles up to the time of christ (mainly noah and up to abraham) there was those laws.

remember why sodoma and gommorah were judged.
since we are in the age of grace, we should offer the grace and blood of the cross.

 

[smaller]

I went to 1 Corinthians 6 where the question is asked, 'Don't you know you shall judge the angles?' Then a little further down in the passage, the Bible says this:

1 Corinthians 6:7-8
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!

I thought it was interesting how Paul said, "Why do you not rather accept wrong?" He's not condoning sinful behavior, but he's not judging either in the sense of condemnation. I think the judging we are to do is really discernment, something that can be difficult in and of itself. Notice the passage quickly turns the reader to his own sins.

If anything is sobering is the fact we know judgment is coming, and its important to tell people this, but we are told not to judge (Matt. 7:1). I think that before we judge someone, let's make sure we are conformed perfectly to the image of Jesus Christ so we can judge righteously.

- Davies

Exactly, or as Paul might state it:

2 Corinthians 10:6
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience,when your obedience is fulfilled.

I expect that God is not mocked, in that whatever a person sows, that shall they reap. This is an action of God working for or against a person which retribution or reward of Himself would seem sufficient to bring anyone in line or run them off the tracks in order to bring them in line.

I have faith that happens 'by God.'

s

 

[smaller]

Is the 'homo' God's enemy?

Are you alone in your sins?

There are other legitimate ways to see others and ourselves when it comes to 'sin' in any form.

Is everything 'you' do of faith? Anything not of faith is also sin.

Measure cautiously. The line one stretches upon others is the one used on you. If I expect mercy and forgiveness it might seem to be a good thing to observe to measure to others.

It was the wicked servant who beat the other slaves.

s