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Limits to what the Blood cleanses

But the mere mention of it is in rabbinic irony making the point that we are sinners.
I don't know about rabbinic irony but I do know there were false teachers infiltrating the church who did not believe that Jesus had come in the flesh and did not believe they sinned in the flesh.
1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
 
True.
But the letter was written to believers. That is quite clear. The citation of unbelief in several verses does not undo this fact.
 
The very definition of a Believer is one who Has admitted they have sinned against God and have repented.
I know many unbelievers who have repented of a LOT of sins, because the big guy in their sky is bigger than themselves.
The definition of a believer is a sinner who has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ alone for their salvation.

1 John 1:9 is a return to fellowship with God. If a believer thinks that they have not sinned. Then they are obviously out of fellowship and the word is not in them. Because they refuse to confess their sin to God........His word tells us to, hence "the word is not in them"

David, a saved man, a spiritually mature saved man at this time ,had to have a prophet come and tell him that "Gods word was not in Him."

2 Sam 12~~13Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die.(David was right next to the sin unto (physical)death at this point. But He made use of 1 John 1:9.

Psalm 32:5~~New American Standard Bible
I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah.
 
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The definition of a believer is a sinner who has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ alone for their salvation.
When you address the full context of 1 John 1 and even the later scriptures in 1 John and even those through 3 John you will be addressing my comment.
Those are the focus of my post and I am not addressing whether Christians need to ask forgiveness. or what repentance is, etc. Or even a more detailed definition of a believer.
 
True.
But the letter was written to believers. That is quite clear. The citation of unbelief in several verses does not undo this fact.
In almost every letter there are things that are addressed to both believers in the group and unbelievers in the group.
John clearly says there were false teachers among them and he addressed their false beliefs. He was not accusing believers of these same false beliefs but was concerned that they would be influenced by them.
 
The blood of JESUS cleanses us from all sin except the sin we refuse to confess, someone wrote.
Obviously someone once wrote that but just as obvious is the fact that it is NOT a full quote from the Bible. vis

1 John 1:5 God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

The careful reader will notice that what the Bible says in its context differs significantly from what the OP stated. (BTW are we not required as a part of the tos to state a position, and back it by Scripture?) The adding to Scripture something that is NOT included in the original piece confirms an old apologetic axiom: Any Scripture removed from its context is a pretext 100% of the time.

Since I do not know the intent of the pastor, I cannot comment on that, nor can I make a statement about his theology beyond me believing that he is some sort of Arminian. However, I can, and will comment on the fact that the entire OP is based on a logical fallacy called "begging the question". And once a logical fallacy is noted, it automatically labels the questions generated in the OP to be of no effect. Bogus, Moot are also good and accurate terms.

To generate the logical fallacy called "begging the question" it is necessary to begin with a faulty premise, and in this case, that there is a limitation on the power of the blood of Christ. It is efficacious on some sins, but not all.

1. How about the sin you probably don't remember?
That is not a part of the entire Scripture, so it is irrelevant. Nor is there any modification (adjective) or lessening the noun "all". No one is doubting the fact that we sin daily, nor is anyone doubting that we can remember them all, so it is impossible to confess them all. Therefore instead of being a help to the struggling Christian, the poster is attempting to lay a false sense of guilt and condemnation whenever that question is asked. Again, I assume that the pastor is well-intentioned.

2. I usually pray: '...from all my sin' and I dont mention all when I know I may not be able to remember what wrong I did last.
That is why I said what I said in the previous reply. Gee, since you can't remember your sins, do you not think that the rest of us are just as forgetful as you?

3. The preacher's statement seems to suggest that the blood does partial cleasing, thus: sin confessed (cleansed) vs sin not confessed.
Indeed, you nailed the crux of the matter! Although the approach you describe does sound to be "pious" it is actually a direct attack on the scope and reach of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, if you think about it for a bit.

4. Yet the preacher seems to be correct. There is a verse in the OT that kinda talks about this, that when you become aware of that sin (when you sinned unintentionally), and confess it, you'd be forgiven

Sorry, friend, but there is no verse in the entire original 66 books that says that sort of thing

for your better understanding, I cut-and-paste these:

ATONEMENT The means of reconciliation between God and people. Emerges in the Old Testament as part of the sacrificial system; reframed exclusively around the person and work of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
<SNIP>
The New Testament authors interpreted Christ’s death as the once-and-for-all atonement event, fulfilling and surpassing all other means humans had previously relied on to atone for sin. Payments of money to the temple, incense, and all other forms of securing reconciliation with God are eclipsed by the cross. Even the sacrifices and atoning rituals of the first covenant are reinterpreted as having been effective only in light of Christ (Heb 9).
<SNIP>

Ransom. Likely the oldest metaphor for atonement in the Christian tradition, “ransom” is the term provided by Christ in the Gospels to interpret his impending death: “the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mar 10:45 ESV). In the Graeco-Roman world “ransom” (λύτρον, lytron) referred to the price paid for the release of a slave or captive. Such an image is not far from Paul’s reminder to the Corinthian believers that they had been “bought with a price” (1 Cor 6:20; 7:23 ESV). In the New Testament framing, humanity is the captive that has been ransomed from the powers of sin and death through the atoning work of Christ. The ransom motif also resonated in a Jewish context, connected with God’s ransoming of Israel from slavery (Exod 6:6, 13). In line with this, 1 Peter 1:18–19 says: “you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers … with the precious blood of Christ” (ESV).

Sacrifice. “Sacrifice” is by far the most common image for atonement in the Old Testament, and it is also the most common way the New Testament speaks of Christ’s death. The author of Hebrews envisioned Christ as both sacrifice and high priest (Heb 10:11–14). Sacrifice is also Paul’s preferred language; his writings establish the substitutionary nature of Christ’s death for sinners, in line with the sacrificial system of the Old Testament (Green & Baker, Recovering, 63–67). Christ identified with people in their fallen state (Rom 8:3) and was made sin (2 Cor 5:21), sharing in our death so that we might share in his resurrection (Phil 3:10–11). In John’s Gospel, Jesus is similarly hailed as “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29).

Reconciliation. Closely related to the image of sacrifice is that of reconciliation. In much the same way that Jesus restored sinners and outcasts to right relationship in the context of first-century Judaism, the death of Christ reconciles the world with God (Eph 2:16; Col 1:20). God is the initiator of the reconciliatory work of Christ, restoring right relationship between a rebellious people and Himself and setting a precedent for the church’s ongoing ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5:18–19).​


Brockway, D. (2012, 2013, 2014). Atonement. In J. D. Barry, L. Wentz, D. Mangum, C. Sinclair-Wolcott, R. Klippenstein, D. Bomar, … D. R. Brown (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

What I would like for you to do is to cut-and-paste the paragraphs above, and look at the Scripture references that are listed. Ask yourself if these represent what the Bible in its context says? Or on the other hand, as you are looking the Scriptures up, ask Holy Spirit to confirm or not conform to what your pastor said. If it is the case that you think your pastor may not correct, then present what I posted and your observations to an Elder in your church. Then let it rest. That is now out of your hands, and you are not attacking the pastor.

Then based upon the way that God may lead you, you deal with Him. Do not discuss your findings with anyone else in the church, excepting the elders and/or the Pastor should they ask you.

Hope this helps ya!
 
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
v
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Clearly John does not expect the his little children to sin, but if they do they have an advocate.
That is a very different tone than 1 John 1:8-10
Truly I'm not a heretic (not that you personally have said so). Here is Adam Clarke's Commentary on these verses.
"If we say that we have no sin - This is tantamount to 1Jo_1:10 : If we say that we have not sinned. All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; and therefore every man needs a Savior, such as Christ is. It is very likely that the heretics, against whose evil doctrines the apostle writes, denied that they had any sin, or needed any Savior. In deed, the Gnostics even denied that Christ suffered: the Aeon, or Divine Being that dwelt in the man Christ Jesus, according to them, left him when he was taken by the Jews; and he, being but a common man, his sufferings and death had neither merit nor efficacy......."
 
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In almost every letter there are things that are addressed to both believers in the group and unbelievers in the group.
John clearly says there were false teachers among them and he addressed their false beliefs. He was not accusing believers of these same false beliefs but was concerned that they would be influenced by them.

And they were going to read this passage?
 
I don't think it's that unconfessed sin leaves you unsaved. I just think that unconfessed sin will keep you out of God's will, which isn't the same thing.
 
I don't think it's that unconfessed sin leaves you unsaved. I just think that unconfessed sin will keep you out of God's will, which isn't the same thing.
that would all depend on who a person asked ..personally i think its best take care of it asap
 
I don't think it's that unconfessed sin leaves you unsaved. I just think that unconfessed sin will keep you out of God's will, which isn't the same thing.

That may be an example of attempting to split hairs from a bald man.:lol
By that I mean that since a bald man has no hair,and that it is impossible to split a non-existent hair.

Seriously, I believe that you may be mixing things up here. Because God is sovereign, His will SHALL be accomplished. God's will is independent of any participation by humanity. By that, I mean that while mankind may be permitted to participate in having the will of God accomplished (such as a missionary to the unconverted) the absence of person A on the field will permit person D, E, or F to accomplish that eternal will of God.

When that happens, it is person A who looses out of having the blessing of God, and perhaps a few crowns attributed to him/her.
 
That's not quite what I meant. More along the lines of...unconfessed sins do affect your relationship with God. I just don't think they do so far as eternal security (salvation) is concerned.

Like, I could not be in a right standing with a parent. That doesn't make them not my parent anymore, or necessarily mean that they're going to abandon me. But my relationship with them would likely suffer until things are resolved and forgiven.
 
Obviously someone once wrote that but just as obvious is the fact that it is NOT a full quote from the Bible. vis

1 John 1:5 God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

The careful reader will notice that what the Bible says in its context differs significantly from what the OP stated. (BTW are we not required as a part of the tos to state a position, and back it by Scripture?) The adding to Scripture something that is NOT included in the original piece confirms an old apologetic axiom: Any Scripture removed from its context is a pretext 100% of the time.

Since I do not know the intent of the pastor, I cannot comment on that, nor can I make a statement about his theology beyond me believing that he is some sort of Arminian. However, I can, and will comment on the fact that the entire OP is based on a logical fallacy called "begging the question". And once a logical fallacy is noted, it automatically labels the questions generated in the OP to be of no effect. Bogus, Moot are also good and accurate terms.

To generate the logical fallacy called "begging the question" it is necessary to begin with a faulty premise, and in this case, that there is a limitation on the power of the blood of Christ. It is efficacious on some sins, but not all.


That is not a part of the entire Scripture, so it is irrelevant. Nor is there any modification (adjective) or lessening the noun "all". No one is doubting the fact that we sin daily, nor is anyone doubting that we can remember them all, so it is impossible to confess them all. Therefore instead of being a help to the struggling Christian, the poster is attempting to lay a false sense of guilt and condemnation whenever that question is asked. Again, I assume that the pastor is well-intentioned.


That is why I said what I said in the previous reply. Gee, since you can't remember your sins, do you not think that the rest of us are just as forgetful as you?


Indeed, you nailed the crux of the matter! Although the approach you describe does sound to be "pious" it is actually a direct attack on the scope and reach of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, if you think about it for a bit.



Sorry, friend, but there is no verse in the entire original 66 books that says that sort of thing

for your better understanding, I cut-and-paste these:

ATONEMENT The means of reconciliation between God and people. Emerges in the Old Testament as part of the sacrificial system; reframed exclusively around the person and work of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
<SNIP>
The New Testament authors interpreted Christ’s death as the once-and-for-all atonement event, fulfilling and surpassing all other means humans had previously relied on to atone for sin. Payments of money to the temple, incense, and all other forms of securing reconciliation with God are eclipsed by the cross. Even the sacrifices and atoning rituals of the first covenant are reinterpreted as having been effective only in light of Christ (Heb 9).
<SNIP>

Ransom. Likely the oldest metaphor for atonement in the Christian tradition, “ransom” is the term provided by Christ in the Gospels to interpret his impending death: “the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mar 10:45 ESV). In the Graeco-Roman world “ransom” (λύτρον, lytron) referred to the price paid for the release of a slave or captive. Such an image is not far from Paul’s reminder to the Corinthian believers that they had been “bought with a price” (1 Cor 6:20; 7:23 ESV). In the New Testament framing, humanity is the captive that has been ransomed from the powers of sin and death through the atoning work of Christ. The ransom motif also resonated in a Jewish context, connected with God’s ransoming of Israel from slavery (Exod 6:6, 13). In line with this, 1 Peter 1:18–19 says: “you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers … with the precious blood of Christ” (ESV).

Sacrifice. “Sacrifice” is by far the most common image for atonement in the Old Testament, and it is also the most common way the New Testament speaks of Christ’s death. The author of Hebrews envisioned Christ as both sacrifice and high priest (Heb 10:11–14). Sacrifice is also Paul’s preferred language; his writings establish the substitutionary nature of Christ’s death for sinners, in line with the sacrificial system of the Old Testament (Green & Baker, Recovering, 63–67). Christ identified with people in their fallen state (Rom 8:3) and was made sin (2 Cor 5:21), sharing in our death so that we might share in his resurrection (Phil 3:10–11). In John’s Gospel, Jesus is similarly hailed as “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29).

Reconciliation. Closely related to the image of sacrifice is that of reconciliation. In much the same way that Jesus restored sinners and outcasts to right relationship in the context of first-century Judaism, the death of Christ reconciles the world with God (Eph 2:16; Col 1:20). God is the initiator of the reconciliatory work of Christ, restoring right relationship between a rebellious people and Himself and setting a precedent for the church’s ongoing ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5:18–19).​


Brockway, D. (2012, 2013, 2014). Atonement. In J. D. Barry, L. Wentz, D. Mangum, C. Sinclair-Wolcott, R. Klippenstein, D. Bomar, … D. R. Brown (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

What I would like for you to do is to cut-and-paste the paragraphs above, and look at the Scripture references that are listed. Ask yourself if these represent what the Bible in its context says? Or on the other hand, as you are looking the Scriptures up, ask Holy Spirit to confirm or not conform to what your pastor said. If it is the case that you think your pastor may not correct, then present what I posted and your observations to an Elder in your church. Then let it rest. That is now out of your hands, and you are not attacking the pastor.

Then based upon the way that God may lead you, you deal with Him. Do not discuss your findings with anyone else in the church, excepting the elders and/or the Pastor should they ask you.

Hope this helps ya!
Would have to link your correction to him or have this emailed to him to challenge his assertion. hope to get his reply back to you in a Messi speed
 
That's not quite what I meant. More along the lines of...unconfessed sins do affect your relationship with God. I just don't think they do so far as eternal security (salvation) is concerned.

Like, I could not be in a right standing with a parent. That doesn't make them not my parent anymore, or necessarily mean that they're going to abandon me. But my relationship with them would likely suffer until things are resolved and forgiven.

Are you then saying that if we cherish a sin in our heart, then our relationship with God is effected, but His relationship with us remains unchanged?
 
Would have to link your correction to him or have this emailed to him to challenge his assertion. hope to get his reply back to you in a Messi speed
I understand what you mean, however since there was a significant error-- by that I mean a misquoting of Scripture to give a false impression (intention is NOT the issue)-- then the full Scripture in its context needed to also be posted on an open board IMHO.

Since this is a non-debating forum, I gave my opinion, and I supplied a Scripture basis for my beliefs without any argumentation.

You made one assertion: "The blood of JESUS cleanses us from all sin except the sin we refuse to confess, someone wrote."
I posted a counter statement: "Obviously someone once wrote that but just as obvious is the fact that it is NOT a full quote from the Bible. vis " <SNIP>
The careful reader will notice that what the Bible says in its context differs significantly from what the OP stated. (BTW are we not required as a part of the tos to state a position, and back it by Scripture?) The adding to Scripture something that is NOT included in the original piece confirms an old apologetic axiom: Any Scripture removed from its context is a pretext 100% of the time.

If you wish to further discuss this with me, please create an OP, and indicate via PM where it is located; I will respond there if it is an appropriate place. Since I have stayed within the context of the tos (as I understand them) by stating my beliefs, and not saying "You are wrong" I remain on the "good side of the mods". Further discussion on this forum in the form of a debate will surely get them annoyed, therefore this is my last post on the matter here.

Since I spend most of my internet time on CARM I may not see the PM immediately. Please be patient. If you deem the time too long that I am taking to reply, please ask a mod to send to me a message on my regular email account, which they can access. OK?
 
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