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Literal or Allegorical

Which system do you find yourself using MOST often.


  • Total voters
    6
The key to understanding the Bible is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you don't understand what God has accomplished in Jesus Christ, you won't understand the Bible, Example. What does it mean when Paul said, "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself?" 2 Corinthians 5:19. The Bible is a spiritual book. If you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, you will not understand it. Those that are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit interpret everything literally or physically.
Because of inherited sin, the world of mankind is alienated from God. (Romans 5:12; Ephesians 4:17, 18) Therefore, those to whom we preach can gain salvation only if they become reconciled to him. The apostle Paul made this clear when writing to Christians in Corinth.

So before humans exercise faith in Jesus’ sacrifice, God considers them to be his enemies. The apostle John wrote: “The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.” (John 3:36) Happily, Christ’s sacrifice makes reconciliation with God possible. Paul declared: “You who were once alienated and enemies because your minds were on the works that were wicked, he has now reconciled by means of that one’s fleshly body through his death.”(Colossians 1:21, 22)

Jesus Christ has given his anointed brothers on earth what Paul calls “the ministry of the reconciliation.” In explaining this, Paul wrote to first-century anointed Christians: “All things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not counting their offenses against them, and he entrusted to us the message of the reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: ‘Become reconciled to God.’”(2 Corinthians 5:18-20)

As a true apostle, Paul taught others about Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. It had an impact on Paul’s life, for he wrote: “The love the Christ has compels us, because this is what we have judged, that one man died for all; so, then, all had died; and he died for all that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died for them and was raised up.” (2 Corinthians 5:14, 15) What great love Jesus showed in giving his life for us! That should be a compelling force in our lives. Gratitude to Jesus for giving his life in our behalf should move us to zealous activity in proclaiming the good news of the salvation provided by YHWH God through his beloved Son. (John 3:16; Psalm 96:2.) “The love the Christ has” should be compelling us to have a zealous share in the Kingdom-preaching and disciple-making work. (Matthew 28:19, 20)

By using their lives in a way that shows gratitude for what Christ did in their behalf, anointed ones ‘live no longer for themselves, but for him.’ “Consequently,” said Paul, “from now on we know no man according to the flesh. Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.” (2 Corinthians 5:16) Christians must not view people in a fleshly way, perhaps favoring Jews over Gentiles or rich over poor. Anointed ones “know no man according to the flesh,” for it is their spiritual relationship with fellow believers that is important. Those who ‘knew Christ according to the flesh’ were not just the humans who saw Jesus while he was on earth. Even if some hoping in the Messiah once looked at Christ on the basis of his flesh, they were no longer to do so. He gave his body as a ransom and was resurrected as a life-giving spirit. Others raised to heavenly life would give up their fleshly bodies without ever having seen Jesus Christ in the flesh.(1 Corinthians 15:45, 50; 2 Corinthians 5:1-5)
 
I don't understand what your point is.
I've been saying it all along Free. You have our Lords' mercy confused with his justice.

Justice is killing a murderer.
Mercy is not killing a repentant murderer.
So Paul,

fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou ME???

Paul persecuted our Lords' followers...people who love our Father. This is why Jesus said,

.Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me,(???) they will also persecute you.

You have God hated sin, confused with "They hated ME."

So Jesus says about Paul,

I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” Act.6:19

Jesus showed Paul how he would suffer because Paul was going to follow Jesus now and,

If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me(???) before it hated you

Free,
I'm trying to explain to you that Jesus suffered because insane, hateful sinners hated God. Jesus didn't die as the result of our sane, loving Father pouring out his wrath on him.
 
I've been saying it all along Free. You have our Lords' mercy confused with his justice.

Justice is killing a murderer.
Mercy is not killing a repentant murderer.
So Paul,

fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou ME???

Paul persecuted our Lords' followers...people who love our Father. This is why Jesus said,

.Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me,(???) they will also persecute you.

You have God hated sin, confused with "They hated ME."

So Jesus says about Paul,

I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” Act.6:19

Jesus showed Paul how he would suffer because Paul was going to follow Jesus now and,

If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me(???) before it hated you

Free,
I'm trying to explain to you that Jesus suffered because insane, hateful sinners hated God. Jesus didn't die as the result of our sane, loving Father pouring out his wrath on him.
I have confused nothing. Jesus suffered because it was the Father's plan, an agreement within the Trinity, that the Son should die in the place man to make atonement for man's sin (Matt 26:42; John 3:14-18; Rom 3:21-26; 2 Cor 5:21; Heb 2:9-17; 7:27; 9:7-10:18; 1 Pet 3:18). It is not only a fulfillment of the OT sacrificial system, it is a fulfillment of the prophecy in Isa 53:

Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors. (ESV)

Additionally:

1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. (ESV)

1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (ESV)

It's also important to note that the Son did so willingly, as given in John 10:17-18 and Phil 2:5-8.

Jesus took the punishment we deserve to give us the salvation we didn't deserve. That is God's love, mercy, justice, and grace in action, expressed to their fullest. Whatever view one may have of what happened on the cross, the penal substitutionary view of the atonement has the greatest biblical support and must undergird any additional ideas.
 
Jesus took the punishment we deserve to give us the salvation we didn't deserve. That is God's love, mercy, justice, and grace in action, expressed to their fullest.
Actually, anyone who would punish an innocent person is unloving and an unjust judge, but this how brainwashed I was at one time, because I simply listened to it without really studying it.
Whatever view one may have of what happened on the cross, the penal substitutionary view of the atonement has the greatest biblical support and must undergird any additional ideas.
On the day of Atonement, people had to confess their sins over his sacrifice or they weren't forgiven. Repentance was the reason for atonement, not substitution.

I've already commented on every scripture you've cited Free. I explained how "the scribes esteemed him" suffering for sin. How Jesus was "crushed by his Father and why. How Jesus is our "propitiation." What "he willingly did this" means

And you didn't look at the reasons. You ignored everything I've explained from the texts you cited...and then ignored how they fulfill all scripture.
 
Actually, anyone who would punish an innocent person is unloving and an unjust judge, but this how brainwashed I was at one time, because I simply listened to it without really studying it.
If that was all there was to it, yes, but as two of the passages I gave show, the Son voluntarily and willingly gave himself as the sacrifice for our sins. The problem is this: "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (Heb 9:22). God demands sacrifice for sins, the price must be paid. If Jesus didn't pay for it, then we all must atone for our own sins through the shedding of our own blood.

On the day of Atonement, people had to confess their sins over his sacrifice or they weren't forgiven. Repentance was the reason for atonement, not substitution.
Again, "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." Repentance is necessary but the shedding of blood is what makes it happen, and that was from a spotless substitute. Since all humans "have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23), and since the sacrificial system has ended, there needs to be or have been, the shedding of innocent blood of a spotless sacrifice that is good for all sins ever committed. Otherwise, there can be no forgiveness and we are still in our sins.

I've already commented on every scripture you've cited Free. I explained how "the scribes esteemed him" suffering for sin. How Jesus was "crushed by his Father and why. How Jesus is our "propitiation." What "he willingly did this" means
I went to the beginning of this thread and looked through and haven't seen a comment about a single one.

And you didn't look at the reasons. You ignored everything I've explained from the texts you cited...and then ignored how they fulfill all scripture.
You didn't really explain anything, that I can see.
 
If that was all there was to it, yes, but as two of the passages I gave show, the Son voluntarily and willingly gave himself as the sacrifice for our sins. The problem is this: "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (Heb 9:22). God demands sacrifice for sins, the price must be paid. If Jesus didn't pay for it, then we all must atone for our own sins through the shedding of our own blood.


Again, "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." Repentance is necessary but the shedding of blood is what makes it happen, and that was from a spotless substitute. Since all humans "have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23), and since the sacrificial system has ended, there needs to be or have been, the shedding of innocent blood of a spotless sacrifice that is good for all sins ever committed. Otherwise, there can be no forgiveness and we are still in our sins.


I went to the beginning of this thread and looked through and haven't seen a comment about a single one.


You didn't really explain anything, that I can see.
Ok Free that's fine. Lets forget everything that has been posted so far and I'll start a thread later today. I'll call it "The Shedding of Christs' Blood" and we can talk about what that really means. Sound good?
 
Ok Free that's fine. Lets forget everything that has been posted so far and I'll start a thread later today. I'll call it "The Shedding of Christs' Blood" and we can talk about what that really means. Sound good?
But that's the thing, this is only the second page; hardly anything has been posted yet.
 
But that's the thing, this is only the second page; hardly anything has been posted yet.
I'm sorry. I meant in other threads also. I have posted in a couple threads in which you also posted in the JW section and thought you might have been following that. I'll just post on his shed blood here. I'll do it later tonight. I want us, everyone here, to look at the scriptures together. The same scriptures, not jumping all over. Going only where Paul comments on the OT, or a parallel passage.
 
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Heb.9:22

Why did God choose blood to purge or make clean? And why is there no remission or forgiveness without it?

It's because the blood is the life of the individual,

But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. Gen.9:4

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev.17:11

The blood is the life. From now on in this thread, I'll use the term "life", whenever scripture speaks of the blood of the sacrifice.

Hebrews says it's the life that forgives sin, makes clean and atones, or covers to reconcile.

Is there any disagreement so far?
 
Again, "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." Repentance is necessary but the shedding of blood is what makes it happen, and that was from a spotless substitute. Since all humans "have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23), and since the sacrificial system has ended, there needs to be or have been, the shedding of innocent blood of a spotless sacrifice that is good for all sins ever committed. Otherwise, there can be no forgiveness and we are still in our sins.
That is a very, very good statement.
Very squared (2nd power)

The Old Testament law was a type and shadow of things to come.

Jesus came as the spotless sacrifice. He alone could shed the blood that cleanses.

We are not spotless enough to fulfill the law. We evidently are brought out from under the dominion of sin (enough to be able to present the Gospel).
Do we suffer? Yes.
We may even shed our blood, but we are not still without spot or blemish.

Man still wants to be just like God. Just still the same Garden temptation.
We may be past:
The Garden
The Flood
John the Baptist (Repentance)
The sacrifice Jesus was
Pentecost

But
We are not past the changes that are to be made to us at the last trump.

Then what can a redneck know
eddif
 
without shedding of blood is no remission. Heb.9:22

Heb.9 is about the Day of Atonement, The "other priests" ministered to God on the outside of "the veil" that God was behind.

the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. Heb.9:6

The High Priest went behind "the veil" with "the LIFE" of the Sacrifice (vs.7.) The "life" of the sacrifice was brought behind the "veil" where only God resided. The veil is the flesh of Jesus, (Heb.10:20.)
 
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Heb.9:22

Why did God choose blood to purge or make clean? And why is there no remission or forgiveness without it?

It's because the blood is the life of the individual,

But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. Gen.9:4

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev.17:11

The blood is the life. From now on in this thread, I'll use the term "life", whenever scripture speaks of the blood of the sacrifice.

Hebrews says it's the life that forgives sin, makes clean and atones, or covers to reconcile.

Is there any disagreement so far?
There sure is. You've made an unwarranted leap from blood being used for purification and forgiveness to it being "the life that forgives sin, makes clean and atones, or covers to reconcile." The two are not synonymous, since a life can be ended without the shedding of blood. In my opinion, it's probably best to just stick with how the Bible talks about it and use the term it uses, which is only "blood."

without shedding of blood is no remission. Heb.9:22

Heb.9 is about the Day of Atonement, The "other priests" ministered to God on the outside of "the veil" that God was behind.

the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. Heb.9:6

The High Priest went behind "the veil" with "the LIFE" of the Sacrifice (vs.7.) The "life" of the sacrifice was brought behind the "veil" where only God resided. The veil is the flesh of Jesus, (Heb.10:20.)
I don't understand what your point is here.
 
There sure is. You've made an unwarranted leap from blood being used for purification and forgiveness to it being "the life that forgives sin, makes clean and atones, or covers to reconcile." The two are not synonymous, since a life can be ended without the shedding of blood. In my opinion, it's probably best to just stick with how the Bible talks about it and use the term it uses, which is only "blood."
If he was anyone else, I'd agree with you, but that's the point of his sacrifice.
Would you agree with me that both the High Priest and the "blood" sacrifices for the Day of Atonement described in Lev.16 are symbolic of Christ?
The reason I ask, is because the High Priest is compared to Melchizedek. He's eternal.
I don't understand what your point is here.
My point is, God was behind the veil of the temple, before the High Priest set foot in it with his own blood, his own eternal life that he sprinkled on repentant sinners,

...blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying... Heb.9:7-8

Our Kings' blood is symbolic of the Trinity. Only God on earth can forgive people abusing him.

feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Act.20:28
 
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