Lordship salvation

[Drew]

hmm paul spoke of his struggle in sin. the law of sin warring with the spirit within him.see Romans 7.

Romans 7 cannot be a description of the struggles of the Christian.

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.

 

[JamesG]

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Drew

And Romans 5-6, is that a description of a Christian?

JamesG

 

[jasoncran]

hmm paul spoke of his struggle in sin. the law of sin warring with the spirit within him.see Romans 7.

Romans 7 cannot be a description of the struggles of the Christian.

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.

so i can sin all i want then and not reap those sees, then,. i dont have to live for christ,

 

[jasoncran]

drew, can i murder a man and not reap the punishment.

 

[Drew]

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Drew

And Romans 5-6, is that a description of a Christian?

JamesG

Well the chapters are not entirely dedicated to addressing the characteristics of a "person" - there is some other stuff dealt with.

But, yes, these chapters do describe the Christian.

But Romans 7 certainly does not describe the Christian, as my argument shows.

I trust you (and others) understand that, in Romans, Paul switches back and forth between different topics. So the fact that Romans 6 is clearly directed at the Christian, as is Romans 8 for that matter, does not mean that Romans 7 is about the Christian.

It simply cannot be - a Christian is certainly not enslaved to sin as the person in Romans 7 is. How could anybody think otherwise? A Christian enslaved to sin? Please.

A Christian struggles with sin, but they are certainly not enslaved to it.

 

[Drew]

so i can sin all i want then and not reap those sees, then,. i dont have to live for christ,

I have no idea what your point is here. Please explain. I am certainly not embracing a position where we do not need to "live for Christ".

Quite the opposite! Against many who post here, I am agreeing with Paul in Romans 2 - we will ultimately be awarded eternal life (or not) based on good deeds:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[jasoncran]

so i can sin all i want then and not reap those sees, then,. i dont have to live for christ,

I have no idea what your point is here. Please explain. I am certainly not embracing a position where we do not need to "live for Christ".

Quite the opposite! Against many who post here, I am agreeing with Paul in Romans 2 - we will ultimately be awarded eternal life (or not) based on good deeds:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

because the law is where we get the idea of what is sin. so when are we ever "good" enough to enter into heaven? how many deeds do we need to do. works that we do, is out of love not to enter into heaven. does the flesh want to serve, how do we mortify our body then? if the law has no effect. we arent under the law, but the flesh nature most be cruficied.

 

[Drew]

because the law is where we get the idea of what is sin.

OK

so when are we ever "good" enough to enter into heaven? how many deeds do we need to do.

We are not told.

But we do not need to be told. Paul teaches that the works are produced by the Holy Spirit. So, to put it somewhat crudey, "its the Spirit's job" to worry about that. But make no mistake - Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - ultimate justification is based on deeds. But we are also promised that the Spirit will generate the deeds and "finish the work". So we do not need know "the pass mark".

Do you not agree with my argument from earlier post:

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent.

 

[jasoncran]

so you dont really know that if you were die this second where you would be?

odd that the lord doesnt give assurance if i take it your way.

you must alway be in fear, what thing did i fail to do that may condemn me in hell.


i dont see it that way, paul didnt. he was ready to die. he bodly states that to absent in body is to present with the lord. how can he say that bodly if what you say is true. surely he didnt know when he would die. he knew his time was short. but not the exact day.

i believe in cruficying the flesh, but we can live a zillion yrs and never be like christ.

 

[Drew]

so you dont really know that if you were die this second where you would be?

I never said anything of the sort - we do not need to know the "standard" since, whatever it is, the Spirit guarantees that we will meet it.

 

[jasoncran]

so you dont really know that if you were die this second where you would be?

I never said anything of the sort - we do not need to know the "standard" since, whatever it is, the Spirit guarantees that we will meet it.

but you imply it, for you state the lord will judge us and give us eternal life or not by our good works

that isnt assurance but ever fretting.
i dont think about when i die, it may be tommorow, or this second. so we should be about the lords work but that doesnt mean we should be worried that we have a quota to meet.

by the way that is what the grace is for, God is author and finisher of our faith.nothing we do suprises him. but if we walk away did god fail when he started, if he starts a work he is faithful to finish it.

 

[Drew]

but you imply it, for you state the lord will judge us and give us eternal life or not by our good works

No. Please re-read what I posted - I am implying no such thing. In fact, I make it explicitly clear that we have assurance.

 

[jasoncran]

but you imply it, for you state the lord will judge us and give us eternal life or not by our good works

No. Please re-read what I posted - I am implying no such thing. In fact, I make it explicitly clear that we have assurance.

really by an if then statement.

if we do this, then only then we have salvation. that is conditional to me.

salvation is conditional in that we have to repent and at the same time, mean it and by that we have the want, and will to yield to the lord. thus fruits.

works with faith isnt the way, its faith with works, faith in the atoning effect of the cross. we produce fruits as we are a new tree. does our flesh nature really want to serve the lord, and are we always faithful.
i think that we stray alot, and the lord is forgiving to overlook those times.

i am not saying that we should ignore the walk set before us. no, we need to be serious minded and work out our salvation with fear and trembling but not so fearful that we duck and the mention of lord as in fear.

we shouldnt be so laxed that we want to get away with much sin as possible and feel ok.