Love is a work?

[JLB]

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Some seem to believe that expressing our faith is a work.


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6


Would this would mean love is a work?


How does the Spirit lead us if not by faith, to express love.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The flesh desires to gratify it’s lustful cravings through sin, which are manifestations of hate.


We are to obey the desires and will of the Spirit, who empowers us to rule in dominion over the inclinations, and lustful deeds of the flesh, so that we are people who walk in love and righteousness, rather than hate and unrighteousness.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


I just don’t see how this is a works based salvation.


How can any born again Christian, think that walking in obedience to Jesus Christ, who dwells is us to lead us in the ways of righteousness, is a work based salvation?



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Love - God is love. To walk on Jesus is to love.
Exclusive boundaries are dangerous. So love is a gift, a work, existence as our breadth. If one excludes our choice to love, one excludes loves outworking.

Language and ideas can limit reality. Words are subject focused, love is infinite. A fool says in His heart God cannot see my sin because of Christ's blood. God sees, so unless we are washed clean we are lost.

Love desires perfection. But we never arrive, for in arriving we fail, for perfection is the road, the moving, the interchange, the next success while risking failure.

But we think it is a mountain top, once conquered, we arrive. So salvation becomes a theology, a church a group. But it is always a walk, a path, handling each moment ?

 

[PeterJens]

Maybe I should say love is the straight way.

It is not bound by rules, but rules mistakes, show errors flaws, things that need resolution.

To walk two steps is good to stay on the path is everything. And the path is love and faith. The path is throughout scripture, loves walk.
Adam walked with God.

Take my yoke, a choice to love, a gift of reality chosen to put into effect.

 

[JLB]

Love - God is love. To walk on Jesus is to love.
Exclusive boundaries are dangerous. So love is a gift, a work, existence as our breadth. If one excludes our choice to love, one excludes loves outworking.

Language and ideas can limit reality. Words are subject focused, love is infinite. A fool says in His heart God cannot see my sin because of Christ's blood. God sees, so unless we are washed clean we are lost.

Love desires perfection. But we never arrive, for in arriving we fail, for perfection is the road, the moving, the interchange, the next success while risking failure.

But we think it is a mountain top, once conquered, we arrive. So salvation becomes a theology, a church a group. But it is always a walk, a path, handling each moment ?

I agree that love is a “work” or an action of faith.

A verb. Something we do in response to the Spirit prompting or leading us.

I agree that faith “works” by love.

Love is obedience to Him who is love, inspiring us to help, benefit, encourage or otherwise do that specific deed for someone who needs our care.

And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ Matthew 25:40


JLB

 

[atpollard]

There is no correct “YES” or “NO” answer to the poll question. In terms of the ritualistic Old Testament Laws that Paul says teach us of our sin and bring only death and condemnation that the foolish obey in a vain attempt to earn a grace that cannot be earned: NO! Love is not a ‘work of the Law’. Yet at the same time, the law an prophets all rest on the commands to LOVE GOD AND OUR NEIGHBOR, so this sort of love is a work that a new heart and a new mind and a new life is expected to walk in ... the good works of Ephesians 2:10 which God prepared in advance and the works of James that prove (demonstrate the reality of) our living faith rather than a dead faith without works.

So LOVE is the work upon which the Law stands, but it is not a work OF the law ... it is the work of God and the children of God that follow along in the family business.

 

[JLB]

Love is not a ‘work of the Law

I agree.

 

[JLB]

Yet at the same time, the law an prophets all rest on the commands to LOVE GOD AND OUR NEIGHBOR,

Yes.

 

[JLB]

So LOVE is the work upon which the Law stands, but it is not a work OF the law ... it is the work of God and the children of God that follow along in the family business.

Do you believe the work of obedience is an action of love?



JLB

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe the work of obedience is an action of love?

JLB

If done right, it is.
If done wrong, it is just a modern “Christian Pharisee”.

• [Matthew 25:37-40 NASB] 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You [something] to drink? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, [even] the least [of them,] you did it to Me.'
• [Matthew 7:21-23 NASB] 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter.] 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

 

[JLB]

If done right, it is.
If done wrong, it is just a modern “Christian Pharisee”.

• [Matthew 25:37-40 NASB] 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You [something] to drink? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, [even] the least [of them,] you did it to Me.'
• [Matthew 7:21-23 NASB] 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter.] 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

When the Lord speaks to us, moves upon us, inspires us, to do something, and we do it, it is called the obedience of faith; which is to say the righteousness according to faith, or being justified by faith.


This is the “right” way; the way of righteousness.




JLB

 

[atpollard]

When the Lord speaks to us, moves upon us, inspires us, to do something, and we do it, it is called the obedience of faith;

I agree.

which is to say the righteousness according to faith, or being justified by faith.

I do not think that ...

• the obedience of faith
• righteousness according to faith
• being justified by faith

... ARE the same thing.

the obedience of faith: Is a proving of the faith that we have been given by performing the good works that we have been “born anew” to perform. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” [Ephesians 2:8-10]

righteousness according to faith: Is the crediting of God’s righteousness to us, because of faith and not due to any innate righteousness within us or our actions. “More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.” [Philippians 3:8-11]

being justified by faith: Is focused on man avoiding the vain attempt to achieve self-justification through following of the OT Laws, and obtaining justification before God based on trust in God (which is the essence of faith). "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." [Galatians 2:15-21]

 

[JLB]

I agree.


I do not think that ...

• the obedience of faith
• righteousness according to faith
• being justified by faith

... ARE the same thing.

the obedience of faith: Is a proving of the faith that we have been given by performing the good works that we have been “born anew” to perform. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” [Ephesians 2:8-10]

righteousness according to faith: Is the crediting of God’s righteousness to us, because of faith and not due to any innate righteousness within us or our actions. “More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.” [Philippians 3:8-11]

being justified by faith: Is focused on man avoiding the vain attempt to achieve self-justification through following of the OT Laws, and obtaining justification before God based on trust in God (which is the essence of faith). "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." [Galatians 2:15-21]

Thank you for your thoughtful response.


The reason they are all the same, is each one is the result of man obeying what God commanded him to do, by which he received faith. IOW he received faith when God spoke to him.


God warned Noah of the flood and told him to build an Ark.
Noah obeyed the word by which he received faith.

God told Abraham to offer his son Issac on the alter.
Abraham obeyed the word by which he received faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


The commandment that is common to all men is the Gospel command to repent.

Repent is how we obey the Gospel and are justified by faith, which is just another way of saying we are made righteous by faith: by the obedience of faith.


None of this has anything to do with “good works”.


Its simply obeying what the Lord tells us to do.




JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Love is a work (a choice) and it is not a natural response.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I think if we are honest with ourselves, most of what Love is.......we don't do naturally.

 

[JLB]

Love is a work (a choice) and it is not a natural response.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I think if we are honest with ourselves, most of what Love is.......we don't do naturally.

Love is not a natural expression of our flesh.

Love is a natural expression of the born again Christian, who has Love, God dwelling within them.


The choice we as born again Christians have to make, is to express the lustful cravings of our flesh, or express the righteous desires of the Spirit who dwells within our inner man.




JLB

 

[TibiasDad]

Love is a work (a choice) and it is not a natural response.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I think if we are honest with ourselves, most of what Love is.......we don't do naturally.

Love is a motivating perspective or point of view. It is how and why God looks at the world the way he does. It is not a work in itself, but the cause of a work being righteous rather than unrighteous. Love prevents the occurrence of the negative commands: putting things before God, misusing the name of God, adultery, murder, stealing, lying, coveting etc, and causes the enactment of the positive, honoring the Sabbath.

Of course, we are incapable of properly having Godly love in our natural state, because we are self-serving and self-serving creatures outside of Christ. But when we are in Christ and he is in us, our perspective changes and we being to look at the world from his perspective. Once the perspective changes what we do changes! That's why faith works by means of love!

Doug

 

[Hospes]

An interesting exercise:

1. Define love.
2. Now apply your definition to these two passages and see if the definition "works" for both passages:

• John 3:16 (ESV)
  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
  
  
• John 3:19 (ESV)
  And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

[Just in case you wonder, both uses of the word "loved" are the same in Greek, except the v16 is singular and v19 is plural.]

How well did your definition hold up for both verses?

 

[JLB]

An interesting exercise:

1. Define love.
2. Now apply your definition to these two passages and see if the definition "works" for both passages:

• John 3:16 (ESV)
  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
  
  
• John 3:19 (ESV)
  And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

[Just in case you wonder, both uses of the word "loved" are the same in Greek, except the v16 is singular and v19 is plural.]

How well did your definition hold up for both verses?

God is love.

His actions express love.

To take a definition of love and try to apply to how God expresses and defines love, and how man expresses and defines love will result in various definitions based upon the spiritual maturity of the person.


It is an interesting exercise.




JLB

 

[TibiasDad]

An interesting exercise:

1. Define love.
2. Now apply your definition to these two passages and see if the definition "works" for both passages:

• John 3:16 (ESV)
  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
  
  
• John 3:19 (ESV)
  And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

[Just in case you wonder, both uses of the word "loved" are the same in Greek, except the v16 is singular and v19 is plural.]

How well did your definition hold up for both verses?

For me, the nuanced expressions of what love is in 1 Cor 13:1-7 makes a solitary definition impossible, just as a definition of God is always completely inadequate. As God is love, love's definition is beyond our complete comprehension.

While the word for love is the same, the contexts of the word's use are very different and that affects the meaning. John 3:16 is an expression of God's love toward man, which in my view is the primary meaning of love, that being not self-seeking (1 Cor 13:5). God my love is more concerned with the needs of others than its own needs. It is, in a word, sacrificial!

John 3:19, on the other hand, is man's love of his own desires above that of God's. It is, in reality, anti-love, or selfishness. It is all about myopic motivation, the good of me over the.good for others!

I think that Jesus's teachings, from the greatest commandment, to the command to deny ourselves and take up our cross and follow him is the proof of my assessment of the primary definition of love being acting selflessly for the benefit of another even at the expense of our own well-being.

Doug

 

[Hospes]

How about love simply being defined as the act of valuing something? It would work in both uses in John and 1 Cor 13 would be a detailed description of what love looks like when directed at another person. Also, it would fit the greatest command of valuing God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And it makes sense in the second greatest command of valuing others in the same way we value ourselves.

Anyway, I've been noodling on the word and I don't think I fully understand it, but I do know that a bunch of what pop-Christianity says about it seems to not fit when applied to scripture.

Finally, why use a word if it's meaning is undefined? To have such an important word be amorphous seems a recipe for sloppy thinking about what is critically essential to our faith.

 

[WIP]

How about love simply being defined as the act of valuing something? It would work in both uses in John and 1 Cor 13 would be a detailed description of what love looks like when directed at another person. Also, it would fit the greatest command of valuing God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And it makes sense in the second greatest command of valuing others in the same way we value ourselves.

Anyway, I've been noodling on the word and I don't think I fully understand it, but I do know that a bunch of what pop-Christianity says about it seems to not fit when applied to scripture.

Finally, why use a word if it's meaning is undefined? To have such an important word be amorphous seems a recipe for sloppy thinking about what is critically essential to our faith.

Sounds to me like you defined it quite well.