Lucifer and Aliases

[Asyncritus]

Rather than confuse the Hebrews thread, I thought I'd bring this subject up in its own.

Here's Elijah:

I see satan as the fallen one in Rev. 12 (with several names) who was in the Garden of Eden even before the creation of earth! Christ saw him fall fro heaven as I see it.

Rev 12 comes after Rev 1 (AD60 or whenever).

Rev 1 says 'things which must shortly come to pass'.

Therefore, Rev 12 HAD NOT COME TO PASS when John was writing. So how can Rev 12 be talking about BGE (before garden of Eden) times?

As Christ told Peter to get behind me satan, Inspiration also gives the Eze. 28 seen in the Prince of Tyrus in parallel to Luciffer, as I see it. Clearly the prince was not in heaven, nor a covering Cherub over the Godheads Ark, nor created.

How can the prince of Tyre be in parallel to Lucifer who was the king of Babylon?

Isa 14.4 "...thou shalt take up this proverb AGAINST THE KING OF BABYLON"

[...]

12 how art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!

[...]

16 ...is this THE MAN that made the earth to tremble

So no angel is here.

And Inspiration tel's us in Isa. 14:12-14 what the problem was. Without a doubt (for me) Luciffer was the Godheads First of creation to hold the highest of positions in heaven. Created PERFECT as seen in Eze. 28, yet HE WAS NOT CREATED FULLY MATURE. (that is what freedom of worship is all about)

Another big problem here:

This can't be correct, because if I understand the other guys correctly, JESUS was the firstborn of all creation (Col.1.15)

So who was first? (In your opinion).

More?? Much, Eze. 28 finds satan the serpent calling the Godhead Liars from the start! he hates the Godhead with his satanic passion & attacks Christ at every point of truth with his counterfiet of self worship.

Again, I have to say that I find no serpent in Ezk 28, but a man:

9 "... but thou art a man, and not God"

and if we are going to interpret scripture faithfully, and understand what it is trying to tell us, then we must abide by what it says. God does not put these things there for us to ignore calmly !

Asyncritus



​

 

[Elijah674]

Rather than confuse the Hebrews thread, I thought I'd bring this subject up in its own.

Here's Elijah:

Rev 12 comes after Rev 1 (AD60 or whenever).

Rev 1 says 'things which must shortly come to pass'.

Therefore, Rev 12 HAD NOT COME TO PASS when John was writing. So how can Rev 12 be talking about BGE (before garden of Eden) times?




How can the prince of Tyre be in parallel to Lucifer who was the king of Babylon?

Isa 14.4 "...thou shalt take up this proverb AGAINST THE KING OF BABYLON"

[...]

12 how art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!

[...]

16 ...is this THE MAN that made the earth to tremble

So no angel is here.





Another big problem here:

This can't be correct, because if I understand the other guys correctly, JESUS was the firstborn of all creation (Col.1.15)

So who was first? (In your opinion).




Again, I have to say that I find no serpent in Ezk 28, but a man:

9 "... but thou art a man, and not God"

and if we are going to interpret scripture faithfully, and understand what it is trying to tell us, then we must abide by what it says. God does not put these things there for us to ignore calmly !

Asyncritus



​

That is (was?) your privalige. See 1 John 4:6 Forum.

And the Word of God had a begining? Hardly! See Heb. 13:8-9 Forum.

And the Prince of Tyrus was created, & in heaven, & a covering cherum??

Forum:
who would want you to believe that satanic posting? Take a Gen. 6:3 guess! The same LIAR from the beginning. Or does satan not speak through his 'today' prince of Tyrus ones?

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

That is (was?) your privalige. See 1 John 4:6 Forum.

And the Word of God had a begining? Hardly! See Heb. 13:8-9 Forum.

And the Prince of Tyrus was created, & in heaven, & a covering cherum??

Forum:
who would want you to believe that satanic posting? Take a Gen. 6:3 guess! The same LIAR from the beginning. Or does satan not speak through his 'today' prince of Tyrus ones?

--Elijah

That is (was?) your privalige. See 1 John 4:6 Forum.

And the Word of God had a begining? Hardly! See Heb. 13:8-9 Forum.

And the Prince of Tyrus was created, & in heaven, & a covering cherum??

Forum:
who would want you to believe that satanic posting? Take a Gen. 6:3 guess! The same LIAR from the beginning. Or does satan not speak through his 'today' prince of Tyrus ones?

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

That is (was?) your privalige. See 1 John 4:6 Forum.

And the Word of God had a begining? Hardly! See Heb. 13:8-9 Forum.

And the Prince of Tyrus was created, & in heaven, & a covering cherum??

Forum:
who would want you to believe that satanic posting? Take a Gen. 6:3 guess! The same LIAR from the beginning. Or does satan not speak through his 'today' prince of Tyrus ones?

--Elijah

Me again.
Is Jesus the ETERNAL Word being called again, a LIAR?? Or was the Truth of Matt. 16:23 + Mark 8:33 & Luke 4:8 of Christ calling Peter (even in the N.T. time) satan, only for & to Peter? What a STUPID QUESTION BY [ME!!]

Christ [documented] for eternal Truth... 'GET BEHIND ME sATAN' (for an analogy!)

 

[Asyncritus]

Come on, E.

You're not answering the simple questions I asked.

I want some proof from the scriptures you quoted that Lucifer and the prince of Tyre are really satan in disguise or something.

If they are, then it should be easy for you to prove it.

Go ahead!

 

[warhorse]

Rather than confuse the Hebrews thread, I thought I'd bring this subject up in its own.

Here's Elijah:

Rev 12 comes after Rev 1 (AD60 or whenever).

Rev 1 says 'things which must shortly come to pass'.

Therefore, Rev 12 HAD NOT COME TO PASS when John was writing. So how can Rev 12 be talking about BGE (before garden of Eden) times?




How can the prince of Tyre be in parallel to Lucifer who was the king of Babylon?

Isa 14.4 "...thou shalt take up this proverb AGAINST THE KING OF BABYLON"

[...]

12 how art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!

[...]

16 ...is this THE MAN that made the earth to tremble

So no angel is here.





Another big problem here:

This can't be correct, because if I understand the other guys correctly, JESUS was the firstborn of all creation (Col.1.15)

So who was first? (In your opinion).




Again, I have to say that I find no serpent in Ezk 28, but a man:

9 "... but thou art a man, and not God"

and if we are going to interpret scripture faithfully, and understand what it is trying to tell us, then we must abide by what it says. God does not put these things there for us to ignore calmly !

Asyncritus



​

Well then you might want to start by keeping your referances straight Eze 28 has two messages, one to the prince of tyre one to the king of tyre with totally differant beings indicated. the one is a picture of a man of sin, and another a picture of lucifer.
Eze 28
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

 

[Sam21]

The literal bible does not tell us that Eze is refering to satan the devil, the idea that it is satan the devil came from the mind of man and is based on the concept found in Daniel that a king or ruler can have a demonic angel or even an angel from God helping the king. The idea was that the first part of Eze was to the actual earthly king and the second part to the angelic being who was helping the earthly king. It could be true but the truth of it cannot be proven by using the bible. So the place in Eze and Isaiah are not literal places in the bible that describe satan, it is the idea of man that these places describe satan,now those places may be actually describing satan,however we cannot use the bible to prove that position.

 

[warhorse]

The literal bible does not tell us that Eze is refering to satan the devil, the idea that it is satan the devil came from the mind of man and is based on the concept found in Daniel that a king or ruler can have a demonic angel or even an angel from God helping the king. The idea was that the first part of Eze was to the actual earthly king and the second part to the angelic being who was helping the earthly king. It could be true but the truth of it cannot be proven by using the bible. So the place in Eze and Isaiah are not literal places in the bible that describe satan, it is the idea of man that these places describe satan,now those places may be actually describing satan,however we cannot use the bible to prove that position.

Umm i disagree with the concept that saten was the figment of mans imagination. Only four named being are described in genesis as having been in eden. God, adam, eve, and saten. Adam was made in Gods own image neither of which fit the description here. that leaves eve and saten Eve was created in the Garden, That leaves saten or some as yet unmentioned being. The concept is that saten was created by God, to display Gods glory. In his heart he became prideful and desired the throne of God. Here in ls the brilliance of God. You see that even while saten fell from grace for his pride, he still fullfills the purpose for which he was created. A light alone in the darkness has nothing to be compared against so its brilliance can not be known. The mountain top experiance, is only recognised against the valleys of the shadow of death And the Grace, love, and rightousness of God is only fully viewed against the backdrop of saten and his evil.