Make-believe vs true Christmas meaning

[OzSpen]

To all,

May you all have a Christ-centred Christmas and a blessed New Year.

Around Christmas and Easter, Aussie sceptics (that's how we spell it) and doubters come out in force against the Christian message.

At these seasons, I write an article and address these issues, trying to get them published in secular sources. Sometimes I succeed and that has happened on this Christmas Eve.

On this Christmas Eve and in this busy Christmas-New Year season, could you find time to make a comment on my article, 'Make-believe and celebrations: Christmas message ignored', published today in On Line Opinion.

It's a secular Australian e-journal that has an editor who is sympathetic to some of my Christian apologetics' articles. All you need to do is create a pen name with password to log in and then comment.

I'll pick up one point from the article. We know this from Isa 9:6 (NLT),

For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us.
The government will rest on his shoulders.
And he will be called:
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is fulfilled in Jesus. How can the Son of God be the 'everlasting Father'?

May you have a Christ-centred Christmas and a blessed New Year.

Oz

 

[Truthfrees]

To all,

May you all have a Christ-centred Christmas and a blessed New Year.

Around Christmas and Easter, Aussie sceptics (that's how we spell it) and doubters come out in force against the Christian message.

At these seasons, I write an article and address these issues, trying to get them published in secular sources. Sometimes I succeed and that has happened on this Christmas Eve.

On this Christmas Eve and in this busy Christmas-New Year season, could you find time to make a comment on my article, 'Make-believe and celebrations: Christmas message ignored', published today in On Line Opinion.

It's a secular Australian e-journal that has an editor who is sympathetic to some of my Christian apologetics' articles. All you need to do is create a pen name with password to log in and then comment.

I'll pick up one point from the article. We know this from Isa 9:6 (NLT),

For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us.
The government will rest on his shoulders.
And he will be called:
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is fulfilled in Jesus. How can the Son of God be the 'everlasting Father'?

May you have a Christ-centred Christmas and a blessed New Year.

Oz

imo the scripture you quoted is another evidence of the Trinity being mentioned as being ONE GOD / MIGHTY GOD - Jesus said the Holy Spirit will counsel us - and the Everlasting Father is our Heavenly Father - and Jesus is the Prince of Peace -

just as scripture says the messiah would be the seed of the woman - proof of the virgin birth - seed is always from a man - and this is the only time seed of woman is mentioned - Genesis 3:15

 

[chessman]

imo the scripture you quoted is another evidence of the Trinity

Well it’s certainly a title of His (Jesus’s) Lordship/Kingship (dominion on His shoulders).

From Oz’s article:

So 'Father of eternity' refers to the 'Author of eternity', from the beginning of time/creation to the consummation of all things. 'This title points to Christ as Creator of the world' (Archer 1982:268) as indicated by John 1:3, 'All things came into being through Him….'​

​

I feel like he was providing corroboration of his opinion by agreeing with Gleason Archer. Not a bad thing to do of course. But also not infallible.

​

Personally (my opinion) is that Jesus is called “Everlasting Father”, well (as Reagan would say), because He’s our Lord God and Saviour. Saviour of the world (Jew and Gentile). And anyone reading Luke’s History would have immediately recognized the title as such. Just as Mary would have:

And Mary said, “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced greatly in God my Savior,​

Luke 1:46-47 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:46-47&version=LEB

But I do agree with Gleason and Spencer both that it’s a title, not a specific reference to the first person of the Trinity.

And he said, “Surely my people are children; they will not break faith.” And he became a Savior to them.​

Isaiah 63:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 63:8&version=LEB

For you are our father, although Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us. You, Yahweh are our father, Our Redeemer from of old is your name.​

Isaiah 63:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 63:16&version=LEB

OzSpen ,I thought it was a great article that should get all non-Christians reading it to thinking about how/why/when they personally celebrate Christmas.

Merry Christmas!

 

[Truthfrees]

From Oz’s article:
So 'Father of eternity' refers to the 'Author of eternity', from the beginning of time/creation to the consummation of all things. 'This title points to Christ as Creator of the world' (Archer 1982:268) as indicated by John 1:3, 'All things came into being through Him….'

agree with THROUGH Jesus but would add by God and the power of the Holy Spirit as per Genesis 1:1-5 -

iow the creation of the world took the Trinity / was attributed to the Trinity - God (Elohim the plural version of El - so in the beginning the MIGHTY ONES - Father Son Holy Spirit) - the Spirit hovering - the Word spoken - enough plain words to support Trinity / Godhead in the 1st 5 verses of the bible

i believe if one reads OT scripture looking for the Trinity there are enough words to support Trinity plainly - rather than twisting Jesus into a Father and also a Counsellor - we know from Jesus' own words that He is not the Father but He is One with the Father - which is declaring Godhead / Trinity - Jesus also declared the Holy Spirit the Counsellor / Comforter not Himself

an interpretation that leaves out the Godhead / Trinity is a shame / mistake imo

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

It was a very good article OzSpen. In depth and intresting. Both a good measure for many to listen to it and gain a better understanding of both Christmas and Christianity. Good luck with the consistent debaters that confront Christianity on that site. But also be comforted that I see more people there who comment on there from a Christian perspective, then there have been since I've started looking at that forum. You're doing a good job, and your not alone. Even if few respond, I'm sure many read it and God can tend to the hearts He means to reach from it.

Be encouraged.

 

[OzSpen]

imo the scripture you quoted is another evidence of the Trinity being mentioned as being ONE GOD / MIGHTY GOD - Jesus said the Holy Spirit will counsel us - and the Everlasting Father is our Heavenly Father - and Jesus is the Prince of Peace -

just as scripture says the messiah would be the seed of the woman - proof of the virgin birth - seed is always from a man - and this is the only time seed of woman is mentioned - Genesis 3:15

TF,

However, how can the Jesus who is the Son of God/Son of man be called 'the everlasting Father'? Son = Father is interesting theology?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

OzSpen ,I thought it was a great article that should get all non-Christians reading it to thinking about how/why/when they personally celebrate Christmas.

Merry Christmas!

Thanks, chessman, for your encouragement.

If you read the comments' section to the article and the other one, The miracle of Christmas , you'll see that antagonists use this kind of article as an opportunity to unload their opposition to Christianity. Some of this is confronting.

That's why I encourage other Christians to become involved - even if only to write a few lines - to let the anti-Christians know there are people who have been born from above who are not like those from the Inquisition or the Strasbourg massacre of 1349.

May you also have a Christ-filled Christmas. It is Christmas morning as I write (6.15am) and church service is at 8am.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

Great article OzSpen very well written and very informative.

Not to many know anything of the Magi and no, they are not a part of the nativity. I was asked to write an article a few years ago that was published in a newsletter. Here is a small part of it as it goes with what you wrote about the Magi.

Matthew 2:1-12 gives us the account of the Magi who were a priestly sect from Persia bringing their best gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh to honor the Messiah’s birth as they symbolically acknowledged Jesus as being the prophesied King of the Jews.

Magi were renowned in their knowledge of astrology with regard to it being science and related their knowledge to the Star of Bethlehem. Daniel was highly regarded by the Persian court. In Daniel 9 the Magi had been given the prophecy of Messiah being cut off in the midst of His 35th year. They knew this event would occur 483 Babylonian years of 360 days after the Persian King Artaxerxes issued a decree. With this piece of information they deducted the Messiah would be born 32B.C.

There was also a Mesopotamian prophet named Balaam who foretold the coming of the star that would signify the rise of Messiah for the tribes of Israel. It was foretold that the Hebrews would receive a King Messiah and that his coming would be noted by a sign in the heavens specifically in the constellation known to Magi as Virgo. One of Daniels pupils, Zoroaster, incorporated these prophecies in his bible called the Zend Avest. Zoroastrianism was the state religion of Persia at the time of Jesus’ birth.

In Matthew 2:9-11 indicates that something would be marking the very place of Messiah’s birth and it is possible that Magi witnessed the Shekinah Glory Cloud, the same cloud described in Genesis at the entrance to the garden of Eden, in Exodus 13:21, 22 as the Pillar of Cloud by day and Pillar of fire by night and in Job as he witnessed the Shekinah when God spoke to him from a whirlwind of a bright and shining cloud.

The trip from Persia to Jerusalem by camel had to take at least three weeks as a camel can travel 500 miles in ten days plus giving time for rest along the trip. Being that the path they took could have been the Silk Road, which was an unsafe road especially when you were traveling with goods of worth, the Shekinah Glory Cloud not only led their trip it protected them until they reached the site where Jesus was born so they could humble themselves before the King of the Jews and worship him with their best gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

All three gifts that were mentioned in scripture had real value and also possibly a prophetic one as only the Magi recognized Jesus as being a king at his birth even though no one else did, not even his own family. Gold was a traditional gift to families to help with the financial burden of a new child and it also symbolized virtue. Frankincense was used as incense and perfume as a soothing gift for a new family. It also helps to keep away pest especially around a new baby. Frankincense was one of the elements used in holy anointing and was placed in a purified form on the showbread in the tabernacle, Exodus 30:34; Leviticus 6:15; 24:7. Myrrh was another ingredient of the holy anointing oil, Exodus 30:23-33). It was also useful as a deodorant. Its preservative properties allowed myrrh to be used along with aloes and other scents and spices to anoint the dead.

These three gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh represented the life and death of Jesus in respect to gold as being his kingship here on earth, frankincense his priestly office and myrrh signifying his suffering. These three gifts symbolized the life and death of Christ we also humble ourselves before him bringing our best gifts to bring glory and honor to the name of Jesus.

 

[Truthfrees]

Great article OzSpen very well written and very informative.

Not to many know anything of the Magi and no, they are not a part of the nativity. I was asked to write an article a few years ago that was published in a newsletter. Here is a small part of it as it goes with what you wrote about the Magi.

Matthew 2:1-12 gives us the account of the Magi who were a priestly sect from Persia bringing their best gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh to honor the Messiah’s birth as they symbolically acknowledged Jesus as being the prophesied King of the Jews.

Magi were renowned in their knowledge of astrology with regard to it being science and related their knowledge to the Star of Bethlehem. Daniel was highly regarded by the Persian court. In Daniel 9 the Magi had been given the prophecy of Messiah being cut off in the midst of His 35th year. They knew this event would occur 483 Babylonian years of 360 days after the Persian King Artaxerxes issued a decree. With this piece of information they deducted the Messiah would be born 32B.C.

There was also a Mesopotamian prophet named Balaam who foretold the coming of the star that would signify the rise of Messiah for the tribes of Israel. It was foretold that the Hebrews would receive a King Messiah and that his coming would be noted by a sign in the heavens specifically in the constellation known to Magi as Virgo. One of Daniels pupils, Zoroaster, incorporated these prophecies in his bible called the Zend Avest. Zoroastrianism was the state religion of Persia at the time of Jesus’ birth.

In Matthew 2:9-11 indicates that something would be marking the very place of Messiah’s birth and it is possible that Magi witnessed the Shekinah Glory Cloud, the same cloud described in Genesis at the entrance to the garden of Eden, in Exodus 13:21, 22 as the Pillar of Cloud by day and Pillar of fire by night and in Job as he witnessed the Shekinah when God spoke to him from a whirlwind of a bright and shining cloud.

The trip from Persia to Jerusalem by camel had to take at least three weeks as a camel can travel 500 miles in ten days plus giving time for rest along the trip. Being that the path they took could have been the Silk Road, which was an unsafe road especially when you were traveling with goods of worth, the Shekinah Glory Cloud not only led their trip it protected them until they reached the site where Jesus was born so they could humble themselves before the King of the Jews and worship him with their best gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

All three gifts that were mentioned in scripture had real value and also possibly a prophetic one as only the Magi recognized Jesus as being a king at his birth even though no one else did, not even his own family. Gold was a traditional gift to families to help with the financial burden of a new child and it also symbolized virtue. Frankincense was used as incense and perfume as a soothing gift for a new family. It also helps to keep away pest especially around a new baby. Frankincense was one of the elements used in holy anointing and was placed in a purified form on the showbread in the tabernacle, Exodus 30:34; Leviticus 6:15; 24:7. Myrrh was another ingredient of the holy anointing oil, Exodus 30:23-33). It was also useful as a deodorant. Its preservative properties allowed myrrh to be used along with aloes and other scents and spices to anoint the dead.

These three gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh represented the life and death of Jesus in respect to gold as being his kingship here on earth, frankincense his priestly office and myrrh signifying his suffering. These three gifts symbolized the life and death of Christ we also humble ourselves before him bringing our best gifts to bring glory and honor to the name of Jesus.

outstanding article you wrote - thank you for sharing

 

[stovebolts]

That was an amazing article OzSpen
Would you be willing to post that as a blog on our home page?

 

[OzSpen]

That was an amazing article OzSpen
Would you be willing to post that as a blog on our home page?

SB,

I give you permission to do this as a blog on the CFnet home page. Would you be able to do it for me? However, please give credit for the original publication: "This article, Make-believe and celebrations: Christmas message ignored by Spencer Gear was published originally in an Australian e-journal, On Line Opinion, 24 December 2018".

Many thanks,
Spencer

 

[stovebolts]

SB,

I give you permission to do this as a blog on the CFnet home page. Would you be able to do it for me? However, please give credit for the original publication: "This article, Make-believe and celebrations: Christmas message ignored by Spencer Gear was published originally in an Australian e-journal, On Line Opinion, 24 December 2018".

Many thanks,
Spencer

Will do, thanks for allowing this!