Man is a spirit

[Libre]

Kenneth Hagin is the earliest modern teacher of it.

Thank you! I found an article where he is teaching that man is an eternal spirit. He calls it the inward man, as opposed to the outward man. It sounds reasonable, but I think it can lead to some really bad doctrine. Some, who aren't Catholic at all, are believing that our spirits pre-existed (not any in my church, but I've heard this in some places).

I used to read Hagin's books a lot. Back in the '70-'80s (I was saved in 1975). The title is How You Can Be Led By the Spirit, and is dated 1986. I Googled: kenneth hagin man is a spirit.

My next search would most likely have been the Hagin/Copeland teachings. Or not, LOL. :crazy My thinking was still local and/or New Zealand/Aussie direction, since my pastors are from down under.

Again, Thanks! You saved me some research!

 

[WordSwordsman]

The first I heard of it was probably from Kenneth E. Hagin in the early 70s.

I somehow deleted the rest of this post when I added that direct answer to your direct question. For all it's worth....

Simplify by taking the "body" out of the formula for a moment. We can all agree man has a body, the purpose of it at the very least to interact with our environment. People share the same air, all have the same breath as any other land dwelling creature. We know God breathed Adam's first breath, but the Bible doesn't indicate how animals began breathing. But we know there is more to us than what animals have, the "inner man" already spoken of in an earlier post. The outward man (body) perishes daily, yet some part of us has been redeemed and eternally saved if in Christ, while looking forward to redemption of the body.

Consider this scripture. Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

God's word appears to be able to deal with invisible things inside us. It distinguishes between a soul and spirit, able to divide them. Since nothing can separate us from the indwelling Spirit, it can't mean the Word of God separates His Spirit from our soul. If anything is true about that His goal is to make us perfectly in union with His Spirit. I take the Bible literally to establish a dual hidden inner man within the human body. One part can be "born again", the spiritman, leaving our mind (soul) and body in the same state as found. It takes work to sanctify the soul (heal the mind, rid us of carnal thinking, conform to the mind of Christ), which is not necessarily changed a bit without at least reading the Word. That has to do with the wholeness Paul spoke of, that our soul, spirit and body will all three be found blameless. The spirit is eternal, will stand before the judgment of Christ/judgment of God, depending on eternal destiny. The body dies, and so can the soul, not preserved with the spirit, if neglected. We ought to value saving of the soul as well as the initial saving of the spirit (born again spirit) and redemption of the body in a glorified state. There is strong evidence in scripture God will not welcome a carnal soul that for instance only knows a lifetime of carnality, the spirit barely saved as by fire. Back to that shortly.

Here's another familiar passage to support "man is a spirit".. John 3:[5] "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Some say Jesus referred to being born of the womb, but that is nonsense. One is born of a woman to be a man to start with, and not all born are saved. Being "born of water" can only mean the washing by the water of the Word, that followed by rebirth of the spiritman by the Spirit. It appears to me man is born in the "flesh", but must be reborn of the Spirit and be a live spirit. I believe every person is born with a spirit, an inner man, that is dead toward spiritual matters, even as Adam was a spirit that could commune with God (not shared by animals), but sin killed his spiritman. For that matter I believe the Bible makes it clear we are spirit beings born to exist forever in the spirit world. Whether you believe you are born with a dead inner man, spiritually dead, or not apparently isn't an issue in this thread, so I'll skip that part. For a certainty Jesus declared you must be born again, and wasn't talking about getting a new body as Nicodemus was thinking. A flesh man has a body of flesh and obviously can live in that body with a dead spirit, yet has a mind, will, emotions, can reason, etc. No dead person can do those things. The mind is alive from birth, but a third part of us is not. I find plenty of evidence the "soul" is the "awareness" that separates man from animals, a special part of human life breathed into the first man and of course woman. God didn't do that for the animals He created earlier, but made man sufficiently to have dominion over all of living creatures. But that's another topic too.

I'll point out another thought. God wants our entire being to be gloriously saved and enjoying the abundant life in this life before Jesus comes back. 1 Thes. 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Paul used three distinct Greek terms of the composition of what should be sanctified "whole" or "entire".
spirit-pneuma
soul-psuche
body-soma

Those are not interchangeable terms. The soul is often called the "heart" in the KJV and other versions. I don't like the circle graphs, or the water/ice/steam analogy, or that man was made with some pattern of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit. God is not divisible into "essences" that can war against each other, certainly not by His own Word. He is One, in three Persons, but in perfect unity as though one Being. The Bible doesn't support any of those popular "explanations". I rather think of the three entities of man as being divided only by the Word of God or at physical death of the body. If one part dies the other two must exist as best they can, living forever in one of two parts of the spirit world. It is evident to me a person can lose their soul, their entire mind/will,emotions/memory, etc, yet the body lives in a "vegetative state". The soul/spirit/body are intermingled in the living human being, so that if the spirit of man is dead the soul and body bear a burden of a dead inner man that cannot commune with another spirit. The born again inner man will go be with the Lord upon death of the outer man, etc. The dead spirit of a man or woman will otherwise remain dead toward God, with an eternal destiny of Hell and the lake of fire.

It helps to occasionally read the entire New Testament at once like a novel, straight through. You can gather all that is necessary to understand about the spirit, the soul, and the body, something we can't replace here in posts. Get a cheap paperback KJV Bible and highlight all references to spirit, soul, body to help seal the full understanding.

 

[Libre]

For that matter I believe the Bible makes it clear we are spirit beings born to exist forever in the spirit world.

Wow. You left out a lot...! Anyhow, I mostly agree. At the same time, the quoted part is the thing I have an issue with. It is sort of what I was hearing taught in the Bible study I mentioned. I do not believe the spirit is sentient or conscious or exists outside the body, other than it returns to God who gave it. What God does with it is not clear. It may be a spiritual DNA of sorts that plays a part in our resurrection - just speculating.

The immortality of the soul or spirit is the basis of most pagan religions. The exception may be Buddhism. But I don't see any support scriptural for an eternal soul or spirit, either one. Not to argue the point. However this is the thing that bothered me enough to ask the original question about man being a spirit or spirit entity.

So, thank you for your kind response earlier about the teaching of that doctrine.

 

[WordSwordsman]

Jesus taught about only two places people go upon death of the body. The fact "we" go anywhere after death speaks of "an" immortality. He clearly explained eternal bliss contrasted to eternal torment based on one's decision in life. All will be resurrected to face one of two judgments, too. That says we are already entered into eternity, though for the moment living subject to mortality of the body which faces a literal resurrection in the future. All of that speaks of immortality of at least one aspect of humans. No person dies like an animal, ceasing to exist at all according to Mark 9:[43] "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." I cannot in any way associate any of the teachings of Jesus to paganism.

I won't press the matter much, but will ask 'Do you believe you can add to or even multiply your "born again" state? How much can you assist God in saving you? What part did you have in the "born again" process?' My answer is I had no part in it other than to believe God could do it upon hearing the Word preached and believing it. God did the rest towards saving me, and once born again I am promised I will live forever from eating that Bread of Life, which I take to be my accepting by faith the giving of Jesus' flesh for me. Ever since then I've sat among fellow believers hearing we should study the Word more to build up our mind to conform to the mind of Christ, being washed by the water of the Word. I don't read that means getting more saved day by day, or re-saved each time I read the Word and do it, or in any way causing the penalty for sin to be repaid over and over.

James, Paul and others taught the Church of believers to move on from being born again spiritually to renewing our mind too by doing the word of God instead of just hearing it. All those instructions have to do with saving of the soul, not saving of the eternal spirit. James 1:21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." Again, the instruction is aimed at believers. The Word is seed which whenever planted in the soul sprouts to effect increasing renewal of the mind.

I know lots of Christians escaped being wicked before salvation, pretty much "good" people. I often wonder how "salt of the earth" folks come to a realization their goodness isn't enough, needing Christ. We chuckle over hearing a 5 year old child taking the microphone and telling the congregation she "lived a life of sin, then came Jesus." Precious. As for me, I was one of those drunken sailors you sometimes read or hear about. I had no thought of God in my youth, thought the Bible was line after line of sheer nonsense. Aunts and grandmothers tried to read it to me, but it might as well have been Russian to me. But one day I did hear the gospel message preached from the Bible, and that was my day to be opened up to the Word. Suddenly, from that day on, I had a thirst for the Word. It took many years to gain some understanding of many of the doctrines of the Bible, but I know my previously dead spiritman came alive that day long ago. I will never say my natural mind just clicked and began understanding scriptures. My mind lagged way behind what I just "knew" down deep. It had to be healed. My memories got in my way. My values had to be replaced. My mind had to be renewed.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus taught about only two places people go upon death of the body. The fact "we" go anywhere after death speaks of "an" immortality. He clearly explained eternal bliss contrasted to eternal torment based on one's decision in life. All will be resurrected to face one of two judgments, too. That says we are already entered into eternity, though for the moment living subject to mortality of the body which faces a literal resurrection in the future. All of that speaks of immortality of at least one aspect of humans. No person dies like an animal, ceasing to exist at all according to Mark 9:[43] "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." I cannot in any way associate any of the teachings of Jesus to paganism.

I won't press the matter much, but will ask 'Do you believe you can add to or even multiply your "born again" state? How much can you assist God in saving you? What part did you have in the "born again" process?' My answer is I had no part in it other than to believe God could do it upon hearing the Word preached and believing it. God did the rest towards saving me, and once born again I am promised I will live forever from eating that Bread of Life, which I take to be my accepting by faith the giving of Jesus' flesh for me. Ever since then I've sat among fellow believers hearing we should study the Word more to build up our mind to conform to the mind of Christ, being washed by the water of the Word. I don't read that means getting more saved day by day, or re-saved each time I read the Word and do it, or in any way causing the penalty for sin to be repaid over and over.

James, Paul and others taught the Church of believers to move on from being born again spiritually to renewing our mind too by doing the word of God instead of just hearing it. All those instructions have to do with saving of the soul, not saving of the eternal spirit. James 1:21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." Again, the instruction is aimed at believers. The Word is seed which whenever planted in the soul sprouts to effect increasing renewal of the mind.

I know lots of Christians escaped being wicked before salvation, pretty much "good" people. I often wonder how "salt of the earth" folks come to a realization their goodness isn't enough, needing Christ. We chuckle over hearing a 5 year old child taking the microphone and telling the congregation she "lived a life of sin, then came Jesus." Precious. As for me, I was one of those drunken sailors you sometimes read or hear about. I had no thought of God in my youth, thought the Bible was line after line of sheer nonsense. Aunts and grandmothers tried to read it to me, but it might as well have been Russian to me. But one day I did hear the gospel message preached from the Bible, and that was my day to be opened up to the Word. Suddenly, from that day on, I had a thirst for the Word. It took many years to gain some understanding of many of the doctrines of the Bible, but I know my previously dead spiritman came alive that day long ago. I will never say my natural mind just clicked and began understanding scriptures. My mind lagged way behind what I just "knew" down deep. It had to be healed. My memories got in my way. My values had to be replaced. My mind had to be renewed.

 

[veteran]

Luke 12:4-5
4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you Whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, Which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.
(KJV)

God's Word defines the three parts of our being when all Scripture is put together in context. Glorydaz is not pulling from Greek philosophy on that.

What I've discovered with many fellow-Christians, is that many have a very, very difficult time wanting to admit the Biblical evidence of man having spirit, soul, and flesh. Many have the state of mind like Nicodemus had when our Lord Jesus gave him some metaphorical examples in comparison. Nicodemus still couldn't understand it, most likely because of thinking with his flesh, being too wrapped up in the things of this world. The examples Apostle Paul gave in 2 Corinthians 12, 2 Corinthians 5, and 1 Corinthians 15 especially come to mind as Bible teaching from The LORD to help us understand this. Yet I find many believers who simply are not willing to look into those Scriptures, and instead want to remain willingly ignorant of their Message.

Furthermore, one can discover 'some' parallels in ancient pagan beliefs that agree with God's Word. That should not be a shock to anyone. When Apostle Paul witnessed Christ to those in Athens, he even used an example from their own Greek philosophers to reveal God to them (Acts 17). How could Paul do that if it weren't for some of their ideas agreeing with God's Word?

The point I'm trying to make is, that just because there may be a parallel idea in pagan belief that agrees with God's Word, it does not mean the idea is wrong simply because it can also be found among pagan philosophy. With this point I'm speaking of pagan peoples that were... searching for God, but because of ignorance and confusion, they fell into idol worship.

The other part of this problem stems from the servants of the devil who intend to keep as many people as possible in confusion and ignorance. It's those who have sought to keep man in darkness by control over religious ideas. Sadly, we have those among Christ's Body also, what Jude called the "crept in unawares", and our Lord Jesus called "tares". It's a lot of their planting of superstitous ideas that scares many of God's children in Christ from wanting to consider what our Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul were teaching on the matter.

 

[WordSwordsman]

Good points, veteran.

Jesus dealt with some abused OT principles like "eye for an eye", and the false teaching "Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy" (not an OT quote, but taught as one by Jews), and made a few references to Gentiles, but didn't touch any of their pagan beliefs. He spoke only what the Father wanted taught.

The Jews had plenty in common with the Gentiles in history, the Jews coming out from among them. All tribes of Earth had in common living around Babel after the Flood, where all religions would have been "seeded" just as the languages were. The farther apart the tribes scattered, the stranger each became to the other. Some truth was doubtless held by each tribe, whatever passed over through Noah and his family from the former world, so yes, one could say some elements of Bible principles can be found in paganism, but not that paganism directly shaped Bible principles like eternal life/eternal death, both bearing undying consciousness. Obvious pagan error would be an assumption a person could live forever in the flesh, never dying, escaping the grave, in essence being a god in human flesh. I don't see a bit of connection between Paul's teachings and obvious pagan concepts except that one comparison Paul made on Mars Hill. That "unnamed god" opened the door for Paul to reveal the one true God to the intellectual society.

Abram was a moon worshiper in Ur, corrected by God later, but we find Judaism contained focus on feasts timed to phases of the moon, so the pagans had some sense of legitimate gravitas about the moon, though going too far by worshiping it.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Veteran: "What I've discovered with many fellow-Christians, is that many have a very, very difficult time wanting to admit the Biblical evidence of man having spirit, soul, and flesh."


Hi Veteran

My experience with discussing this with fellow brethren. Is that they can not distinguish between what is a body, and what is a soul, and what is the spirit of man. And how they function according to the way in which God created, made and formed the first man Adam.

Man was made - body, soul and made to have a spirit = the spirit of man. Man was "NOT" created body, soul, and spirit !

God created man , male and female , which is the one image of God.

God made man in his image = 1 - One

When God formed man from the dust of the earth. Man was body and soul. God breathed into his nostriles the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

When God breathed into his nostriles, he did two things. 1. breathed breath life into the formed man -- 2. breathed spirit into man as well. Man did not become a living spirit. He possessed a spirit, given to him by God. This is the way in which God communicates with man - Spirit to spirit.

When man dies, the body and soul go to the grave , because the body and soul die. The spirit goes back to God , who gave it. This paticular spirit is not a part of the man. It was nothing more than a tool.

Bless

 

[glorydaz]

Man was made - body, soul and made to have a spirit = the spirit of man. Man was "NOT" created body, soul, and spirit !

No, man was, indeed, created body, soul, and spirit.

When God formed man from the dust of the earth. Man was body and soul. God breathed into his nostriles the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

When God breathed into his nostriles, he did two things. 1. breathed breath life into the formed man -- 2. breathed spirit into man as well. Man did not become a living spirit. He possessed a spirit, given to him by God. This is the way in which God communicates with man - Spirit to spirit.

When man dies, the body and soul go to the grave , because the body and soul die. The spirit goes back to God , who gave it. This paticular spirit is not a part of the man. It was nothing more than a tool.

"God formed man of the dust of the ground"...God created man's body.

"And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life"..."Breath" is derived from the Hebrew word "neshamah" which is translated "spirit" here in Pro.20:27. "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly."

Zechariah (12:1)speaks of the creation of man's spirit as God stretched forth the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth..."and formeth the spirit of man within him."

And became a living soul...(man's intrinsic person) was the issue of the breath of God entering into the nostrils of the body of dust.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[WordSwordsman]

This need not be to difficult for Christians to comprehend, illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

Ephes. 2:[1] "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

What was dead then made alive? Something not in existence cannot be dead then made alive. Now we read Mysteryman to say that which God makes alive (quickens) dies with the body and stays in the grave. That part of us that was dead in sin is the spiritman, which is reborn from the dead in this life. Obviously the soul is not reborn, else what God makes alive dies with the body and stays in the grave, there being no eternal life.

We can also see there's a spirit "in" the children of disobedience, of which all of us were. All such people exist in a purely flesh state, soul contaminated but alive, spirit "there" but incapable of receiving holy knowledge. That "dead" inner man is made alive in Christ, then never dies. We are born with it "dead" to the things of God, and hope to live forever with a reborn spirit. Our hope is also in this life our soul, which obviously cannot be dead while we live in this life (unless in a vegetative state), will be sufficiently renewed to enable the new spiritman to control the body of flesh. Before the spirit is reborn the soul cannot possibly run things well, leading the body into danger, lacking help from a spiritman able to receive instruction from God.

With a dead spirit, a person has capability of "soul-training". I call it that to point out the vast majority of humans as "religious" people who appear religious by training, like a soldier learns to act without reasoning everything out solely on the basis of training. They are yet operating with a dead spiritman, unable to comprehend things from the Holy Spirit until born again, yet we cannot say they don't have a living soul. One can learn religion to behave religiously, but have no power of religion, subject to demons, false doctrines, liars, sorcerers, witches, and vain philosophies. A religious person with soul alive and trained can be a monk, a priest, whatever minister, wolves.

If all a person has is a later "gift" of a tool you call a spirit, then being a tool gift it is not life, but...a tool. If then as you say the body and soul die and stay in the grave, nothing could go be with the Lord until the resurrection. But that defies what is taught in the Bible, a false doctrine called "soul sleep" which leaves Heaven empty of all but occupied it before creation. One would have to also claim Hell is empty, but not according to Jesus.

 

[glorydaz]

Amen, WordSwordsman.

At the fall, the first attack from Satan came against the soul...mind, will, and emotions.
The body became sinful flesh....ever a servant to the soul.
The spirit was deadened.

The reverse order of renewing happens when our spirit is awakened.
Only then can our soul be renewed. With our mind we put on the mind of Christ, our will is to obey God, and our body becomes a servant of good rather than evil.

 

[Lee100]

I do not believe in soul sleep, when we die we go to be with the Lord in the third heaven, Found in 2 Corinthians 2:5. I have always believed that we have a body and soul which is our consciousness and our spirit which is given to us at the time of our conversion. We are born with no spirit- (Holy Spirit). So you could says you are only half a person when you are born, you are missing your spirit given to you by God upon your conversion to Christianity.

 

[glorydaz]

I do not believe in soul sleep, when we die we go to be with the Lord in the third heaven, Found in 2 Corinthians 2:5. I have always believed that we have a body and soul which is our consciousness and our spirit which is given to us at the time of our conversion. We are born with no spirit- (Holy Spirit). So you could says you are only half a person when you are born, you are missing your spirit given to you by God upon your conversion to Christianity.

I don't believe in soul sleep, either, and agree when we die we go to be with the Lord. I do think man has his own spirit. The Spirit that is given at our conversion is the Holy Spirit...it quickens the spirit of man that was deadened at the fall. What "died" at the fall...or was deadened, was the spirit of man.

We see man was formed with a spirit at creation.

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

But there is a spirit in man that communes with the Spirit of God when it is quickened.

But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

We see man has his own spirit which the Holy Spirit quickens when we are saved.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

 

[WordSwordsman]

Good, it is easily seen there is no soul sleep.

I want to take the fact man is born with a "dead" spiritman that should be born again by faith of Christ. God quickens it, makes it alive. What do you think of the 120 awaiting the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost? Did none have a spirit? When the Holy Spirit came they possessed the Holy Spirit alone? Was the Holy Spirit born again? Of course not. I believe the Holy Spirit will enter us as promised by Jesus, but only when our spiritman (innerman) is born again and receptive to His presence. Upon being filled with the Holy Spirit we then have a companion, in fact God in us. We do not become God when the Holy Spirit comes in filling us. We are instead filled with God but not "possessed" by God. He comes as a partner. When born again I became a co-heir with Jesus, but was not filled with the Spirit. That happened later, like it did for those first believers.

John 14:[15] "If ye love me, keep my commandments. [16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

He shares our body, but doesn't barge in. We do not become His Spirit. We are born again spiritually before anything else happens within His will. He saves our spirit by faith. He says to renew our minds (soul) to the saving of it before He returns. He fills us with His Holy Spirit, that with signs available to know it has happened.

 

[glorydaz]

When born again I became a co-heir with Jesus, but was not filled with the Spirit. That happened later, like it did for those first believers.

John 14:[15] "If ye love me, keep my commandments. [16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

I believe we are filled with the Holy Spirit when we're born again. Jesus was speaking of the Holy Spirit that would not be sent until Jesus had risen. While some in the early church had been baptised with repentance, they had not yet experienced the quickening the Spirit gives at re-birth. We believe unto repentance and the Lord circumcises our heart...and we are filled with the Spirit. This is taking part first in the death and then in the resurrection. Some believe and need to go on unto salvation, when we become partakers of His life and the Holy Spirit abides in us. Taking part in both the death and resurrection is to be born of God.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Mysteryman]

Man was made - body, soul and made to have a spirit = the spirit of man. Man was "NOT" created body, soul, and spirit !

No, man was, indeed, created body, soul, and spirit.

When God formed man from the dust of the earth. Man was body and soul. God breathed into his nostriles the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

When God breathed into his nostriles, he did two things. 1. breathed breath life into the formed man -- 2. breathed spirit into man as well. Man did not become a living spirit. He possessed a spirit, given to him by God. This is the way in which God communicates with man - Spirit to spirit.

When man dies, the body and soul go to the grave , because the body and soul die. The spirit goes back to God , who gave it. This paticular spirit is not a part of the man. It was nothing more than a tool.

"God formed man of the dust of the ground"...God created man's body.

"And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life"..."Breath" is derived from the Hebrew word "neshamah" which is translated "spirit" here in Pro.20:27. "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly."

Zechariah (12:1)speaks of the creation of man's spirit as God stretched forth the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth..."and formeth the spirit of man within him."

And became a living soul...(man's intrinsic person) was the issue of the breath of God entering into the nostrils of the body of dust.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Hi glorydaz

Please provide scripture where it tells us that God created man, body, soul, and spirit.

Zechariah 12:1 does not speak of the creation of man's spirit. God "formed" the spirit of man within him. Not created !!

Look, you can believe a duck is an elephant all you want too. But a duck has a beak and an elephant has a trunk. This is a choice that you need to make. And a choice that you will be held accountable for.

When man looses his breath, his body and soul dies. I know that I have point this out to you before with scripture. The soul does not sleep, it dies ! And goes to the grave with the body. And we are talking about all of mankind here. Not Christians ! However, the body and soul of a Christian dies as well, when one dies. The Spirit of Christ in you sleeps, and waits for the gathering up of the saints.

Spirit never dies. Spirit of man goes back to God. The greatest lie in the world, is that "ye shalt not surely die".

God didn't breath soul into the man Adam. He breathed breath life and the spirit of man into the one man Adam. Man became a living soul. He already had soul, but it was not living. The body of man was not living either. It was "wet dust" that was "formed". Basically a clay mold.

 

[glorydaz]

Man was made - body, soul and made to have a spirit = the spirit of man. Man was "NOT" created body, soul, and spirit !

No, man was, indeed, created body, soul, and spirit.

When God formed man from the dust of the earth. Man was body and soul. God breathed into his nostriles the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

When God breathed into his nostriles, he did two things. 1. breathed breath life into the formed man -- 2. breathed spirit into man as well. Man did not become a living spirit. He possessed a spirit, given to him by God. This is the way in which God communicates with man - Spirit to spirit.

When man dies, the body and soul go to the grave , because the body and soul die. The spirit goes back to God , who gave it. This paticular spirit is not a part of the man. It was nothing more than a tool.

"God formed man of the dust of the ground"...God created man's body.

"And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life"..."Breath" is derived from the Hebrew word "neshamah" which is translated "spirit" here in Pro.20:27. "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly."

Zechariah (12:1)speaks of the creation of man's spirit as God stretched forth the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth..."and formeth the spirit of man within him."

And became a living soul...(man's intrinsic person) was the issue of the breath of God entering into the nostrils of the body of dust.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Hi glorydaz

Please provide scripture where it tells us that God created man, body, soul, and spirit.

Zechariah 12:1 does not speak of the creation of man's spirit. God "formed" the spirit of man within him. Not created !!

Look, you can believe a duck is an elephant all you want too. But a duck has a beak and an elephant has a trunk. This is a choice that you need to make. And a choice that you will be held accountable for.

When man looses his breath, his body and soul dies. I know that I have point this out to you before with scripture. The soul does not sleep, it dies ! And goes to the grave with the body. And we are talking about all of mankind here. Not Christians ! However, the body and soul of a Christian dies as well, when one dies. The Spirit of Christ in you sleeps, and waits for the gathering up of the saints.

Spirit never dies. Spirit of man goes back to God. The greatest lie in the world, is that "ye shalt not surely die".

God didn't breath soul into the man Adam. He breathed breath life and the spirit of man into the one man Adam. Man became a living soul. He already had soul, but it was not living. The body of man was not living either. It was "wet dust" that was "formed". Basically a clay mold.

By your reasoning...God didn't create man at all, since He only "formed" him.
You say He only "formed" man's spirit...well, guess what? He "formed" his body, too. The "formed" body, met up with the "formed" spirit and became a living soul. Not created? That would be your personal opinion of how God works. You can continue to think however you like, but the Word, itself, says man is body, soul, and spirit.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[WordSwordsman]

Glorydaz wrote

I believe we are filled with the Holy Spirit when we're born again. Jesus was speaking of the Holy Spirit that would not be sent until Jesus had risen. While some in the early church had been baptised with repentance, they had not yet experienced the quickening the Spirit gives at re-birth. We believe unto repentance and the Lord circumcises our heart...and we are filled with the Spirit. This is taking part first in the death and then in the resurrection. Some believe and need to go on unto salvation, when we become partakers of His life and the Holy Spirit abides in us. Taking part in both the death and resurrection is to be born of God.

[quote:1p5t2ech]Romans 5:10 wrote:For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.â€

[/quote:1p5t2ech]

We are now delving into the longstanding debate Baptists have with full gospel/pentecostal believers, which I don’t find reconcilable. I believed the way you put it, most every Christian in my life taking it that way for a long time. But when I experienced a separate “Baptism in the Holy Ghost†with evidence of speaking in tongues, I felt to be honest I must turn myself in to the So. Baptists, being a Bible teacher there, and having taken some seminary training from them. Of course they required me to abandon my new belief and experience or leave, so we left, and finished refunding the tuition. Since then I’ve had 34 years to reflect on that, being now far more convinced I did the right thing.. Rather than get into that more I wanted to comment more along the lines of the thread topic.

My focus this post is on your use of Romans 5:10 to support your view on that. Here’s enough context to get to my point. Romans 5:8-11 “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. [11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.â€

There we see five gifts of God we receive. We are loved by God. We are justified by His blood. We are saved by His life. We are reconciled by His death. We have received the atonement.

I ask “When did His life begin?†I don’t think it began after He died. Just give that some thought.

 

[veteran]

Good points, veteran.

Jesus dealt with some abused OT principles like "eye for an eye", and the false teaching "Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy" (not an OT quote, but taught as one by Jews), and made a few references to Gentiles, but didn't touch any of their pagan beliefs. He spoke only what the Father wanted taught.

The Jews had plenty in common with the Gentiles in history, the Jews coming out from among them. All tribes of Earth had in common living around Babel after the Flood, where all religions would have been "seeded" just as the languages were. The farther apart the tribes scattered, the stranger each became to the other. Some truth was doubtless held by each tribe, whatever passed over through Noah and his family from the former world, so yes, one could say some elements of Bible principles can be found in paganism, but not that paganism directly shaped Bible principles like eternal life/eternal death, both bearing undying consciousness. Obvious pagan error would be an assumption a person could live forever in the flesh, never dying, escaping the grave, in essence being a god in human flesh. I don't see a bit of connection between Paul's teachings and obvious pagan concepts except that one comparison Paul made on Mars Hill. That "unnamed god" opened the door for Paul to reveal the one true God to the intellectual society.

Abram was a moon worshiper in Ur, corrected by God later, but we find Judaism contained focus on feasts timed to phases of the moon, so the pagans had some sense of legitimate gravitas about the moon, though going too far by worshiping it.

Right, I never meant to infer paganism was ever on equal par with God's Truth in His Word. We must remember the lesson our Lord Jesus gave us in Luke 4 with the devil tempting Him while quoting Scripture from Psalms, almost to the letter except for one small addition to the Scripture which changed its meaning. Even the devil knows he must present some of God's Truth to persuade the deceived. And it's by that method which has caused some pastors today to treat the Babylonian creation account as being the source for the Genesis creation account, simply because the Babylonian account is older.

 

[glorydaz]

We are now delving into the longstanding debate Baptists have with full gospel/pentecostal believers, which I don’t find reconcilable. I believed the way you put it, most every Christian in my life taking it that way for a long time. But when I experienced a separate “Baptism in the Holy Ghost†with evidence of speaking in tongues, I felt to be honest I must turn myself in to the So. Baptists, being a Bible teacher there, and having taken some seminary training from them. Of course they required me to abandon my new belief and experience or leave, so we left, and finished refunding the tuition. Since then I’ve had 34 years to reflect on that, being now far more convinced I did the right thing.. Rather than get into that more I wanted to comment more along the lines of the thread topic.

My focus this post is on your use of Romans 5:10 to support your view on that. Here’s enough context to get to my point. Romans 5:8-11 “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. [11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.â€

There we see five gifts of God we receive. We are loved by God. We are justified by His blood. We are saved by His life. We are reconciled by His death. We have received the atonement.

I ask “When did His life begin?†I don’t think it began after He died. Just give that some thought.

You're correct...there will be no reconciling on this difference until the Lord comes again. I've been born again for 40 years, and have come up against this separate filling of the Holy Spirit and the speaking in tongues. There is nothing to consider that I haven't already considered many times on this issue. I know the Holy Spirit abides in me, and I believe the Word supports that...as well as the confirmation I have from the Spirit. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.