Marijuana VS Pork

[Drummer4Christ]

Why do all the verses used to defend eating "unclean" food not apply to smoking pot (or tobacco for that matter)?

Because of verses condemning "drunkenness"? Even one sip of alcohol alters your body's chemistry, whether you get drunk or not.

Because weed is illegal? Several states & municipalities have decriminalized pot.

Because of the illegal drug trade? Not every procurement of marijuana involves violent drug cartels.

 

[Gazelle]

I'm not fully aware of all the positions and arguments here at CF regarding this, so I'm not fully understanding why the question arises. hehehe I'll try to reply intelligently anway. (What a loaded question, btw!)

In the first place, yes, when something is illegal by the law of the land, we are to obey it (in general...let's not go loopy here with ideas of "what if" something is against God's Word etc.)

Christ told and showed us to "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" and paid their taxes due.

But we also have verses about how the believer is the Temple of the Holy Spirit (there no longer being need for the physical temple and sacrifices) and, how we are to take care of our bodies because we do embody the Holy Spirit...God!

So now we go to free will.... through that we have choices we make whether to do this or that, smoke or not, eat or not, view stuff, go places or not. All is lawful (unless against local law) but all is not expedient (useful and profitable) for us. We are to choose the best for ourselves, our health, and even for reputation before others, as we can. Just as those here reading have the choice to be doing this or to be at church or at a movie or independent Bible study rather than reading this. ;)

To be more to the point, is smoking marijuana sin? Obviously not for those who truly use it medicinally... but what about the other usage? Is eating pork sin? I think we're splitting hairs here, and the real issue is if someone truly is following, or even trying to follow, Christ or not. What do you think? ;)

 

[Jam]

I'm with you on this one, my friend: the smoking of marijuana is not necessarily sinful. However, there exists a large number of mundane activites that can become sinful, depending upon the specifics of the activities and our motives/motivation for taking part in said activities.

I think you'll find a fair amount of hypocrisy and/or inconsistency regarding the use of drugs within the Church.

 

[theLords]

1 Peter 1:13
Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

 

[Adullam]

The use of mood altering drugs has nothing in common with the power of the Spirit. They should not be mentioned by the Christian. They are an alternative to faith.

 

[theLords]

The use of mood altering drugs has nothing in common with the power of the Spirit. They should not be mentioned by the Christian. They are an alternative to faith.

I agree. (Outside of the medical issue), most Christians want to rationalize drugs as "only sinful for being illegal."

"Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith." 1 Peter 5:8-9

It's kind of hard to resist the enemy when your stoned...

 

[jasoncran]

my wife a former stoner who smoked at least a dime bag a day. doesnt miss it.

the shall not suffer a witch to live. in the days of that law all witches used drugs to get into that "spirit"

just so you know.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Addiction -

"Why do all the verses used to defend eating "unclean" food not apply to smoking pot (or tobacco for that matter)?"

Kind of a different issue y'all -

Pork isn't addictive (except in the case of McRibs, of course). So while Pork (In the jewish LAW) was an unclean food not to be consumed (for a number of GOOD reasons under unrefrigerated conditions), the business of ADDICTION, and addictive substances is actually a "First Commandment issue" (No OTHER gods before ME).

 

[Jam]

Re: Addiction -

"Why do all the verses used to defend eating "unclean" food not apply to smoking pot (or tobacco for that matter)?"

Kind of a different issue y'all -

Pork isn't addictive (except in the case of McRibs, of course). So while Pork (In the jewish LAW) was an unclean food not to be consumed (for a number of GOOD reasons under unrefrigerated conditions), the business of ADDICTION, and addictive substances is actually a "First Commandment issue" (No OTHER gods before ME).

The Hebrew word used in Exodus 20:3 is "Elohim". This means "God" (or in the case of our verse, "gods"). The Ten Commandments were intended to be simple and apodictic Laws- they were not intended to be metaphorical or symbolic! Claiming that having an addiction is a violation of the first commandment twists the meaning of the Law: it was not intended to be a prohibition on addictions!

That isn't to say that addictions are okay, mind; just that I think the use of the Ten Commandments is inappropriate for the issue.


Regardless, this is not a big issue, because cannabis really is not that addictive! I'm not going to spout some pseudo-scientific drivel about it not being "physically addictive" (because that means nothing), but it is far less addictive than common drugs- such as caffeine and alcohol. Even from only my own experience, I have never encountered someone addicted to cannabis (despite being acquainted with many users, particularly in my younger years). To be honest, it's pretty absurd to suggest that we should never take part in an activity just in case we become addicted to it: watching TV is addictive; playing sport is addictive; posting on internet forums is addictive; academic study can be addictive! In fact, it is generally accepted now that almost all activities are addictive, but simply vary in their "addictiveness". Is everything we do sinful for this reason? No.

So, being addicted to cannabis is not ok. Using it? Fine, I believe, although there could be a legit case against smoking it due to the dangers of cancer and other diseases. Fortunately, there are many others ways of using cannabis.

The use of mood altering drugs has nothing in common with the power of the Spirit. They should not be mentioned by the Christian. They are an alternative to faith.

Everything you ever do in this life will alter your mood and brain chemistry. Does that mean that you can never take any action that has something "in common with the power of the Spirit"?

If you're going to make this argument you're going to have to refer to something a little more specific than "mood altering drugs".

Can you back up your claims with any evidence? Your claim that "mood altering drugs" are an alternative to faith, particularly - it just sounds like wild, unsubstantiated speculation to me.

 

[jasoncran]

elohim in hebrew doesnt mean GODS it means the GOD. plural tense in that language means emphasis,

and uh one can function while on caffeine but not on pot. im sure you wouldnt deny the fact that it does alter ones judgment and state of mind or it wouldnt be smoked!

 

[Jam]

elohim in hebrew doesnt mean GODS it means the GOD. plural tense in that language means emphasis,

It depends heavily on the context, I think you'll find.
"Elohim" is used in Exodus 20:3 and it does not refer to YHWH:

You shall have no other gods before me.

(NET)

Regardless, my point was simply that the command is clearly referring to divine beings and the concept of other deity; to twist it to mean anything to which we can become addicted is not wise.

and uh one can function while on caffeine but not on pot. im sure you wouldnt deny the fact that it does alter ones judgment and state of mind or it wouldnt be smoked!

Of course you can function on cannabis; it simply changes the way in which you function- as does caffeine.

Yes, it does alter one's judgement and state of mind- but so does caffeine.

Now, I know cannabis has more significant effects than caffeine, and so you could argue that the alteration of brain function caused by cannabis is greater than that of caffeine. But the key point that I was trying to make is that it is ridiculous to claim that all "mood altering drugs" are necessarily sinful.

This is the argument that has been used a couple of times on this thread, and if someone wishes to make an argument along these lines then they need to be much more specific than "mood altering": everything that we do alters our mood and brain function. So, for this to be a valid argument, there must be a point of significance at which the activity causing the alteration becomes sinful - not everything that alters mood/brain function is sinful.

 

[jasoncran]

there are those that function on alcohol in their blood above .001 and not even flinch do we then make laws that allow dui?

my fil is one of those.

now then whenever you see this

2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

ok well first off i we do that wierd exegesis that you did then we can miss church, for that ball game. and still think God is ok? what is worship? placing something that is above god that he made or is in his creation. an idol can be anything that is placed as a a god.

we have to look at that culture then and then look around us and what we do to make a god like that and consider the principal

for instance.

im sad. i dont pray and i dont have any chemical reason or medical reason to be sad. so i hit the joint, drink the beer to the point of stupor to forget that pain.


yet consider and compare i am sad and have the same conditions. i then pray, i dont get my answer but i trust in the lord. not always easy but its what is commanded we are to do.

i choose the later. drugs dont and cant be any god to us.

what is God to us? he is our source our peace and much more and identity. if anything in his creation takes that place then its a sin.

and even the gods are made from his creation. so there is the principal of that commandment. dont make or bow or claim or lean on any of my created elements and claim that they are are your source.

and yes i checked the verse in my greek/hebrew link on the bible

 

[jasoncran]

when we look into what they do and go beyond the point of functioning to the point of being able to make sound judgements as in one cant drive safe, remember where they are at,and also has to have that fix.

for the record i drink caffeine alot and i can go without the caffiene the sugar does more then that. and i dont get mad or what not without either. just a habit.

just tired.i can drive, fly etc on caffiene but one cant say that with pot.

 

[Jam]

there are those that function on alcohol in their blood above .001 and not even flinch do we then make laws that allow dui?

I fail to see the relevance of this. In an ideal world, though, we would determine whether or not someone was permitted to drive by whether or not they are able to function. Unfortunately, to accurately assess each and every case of driving and check that the driver is functioning suitably would be incredibly costly, time-consuming and virtually impossible. So, we decide to play it safe and make a limit on the consumption that applies to everyone: even if someone is safe to drive past this threshold, they are still not permitted to do so.

ok well first off i we do that wierd exegesis that you did then we can miss church, for that ball game. and still think God is ok? what is worship? placing something that is above god that he made or is in his creation. an idol can be anything that is placed as a a god.

we have to look at that culture then and then look around us and what we do to make a god like that and consider the principal

What? I didn't say it was cool to miss church and go watch a ball game: I simply explained why I didn't think that that particular commandment was relevant to addictions. I even explicity stated that I didn't think addictions were okay:

That isn't to say that addictions are okay, mind; just that I think the use of the Ten Commandments is inappropriate for the issue.

for instance.

im sad. i dont pray and i dont have any chemical reason or medical reason to be sad. so i hit the joint, drink the beer to the point of stupor to forget that pain.


yet consider and compare i am sad and have the same conditions. i then pray, i dont get my answer but i trust in the lord. not always easy but its what is commanded we are to do.

This is an extreme example and not an accurate representation of what I have been arguing. At no point did I say that it was acceptably to smoke or drink "to the point of stupor to forget [the] pain". It is perfectly possible to smoke a joint and still have a state of mind which enables/causes one to centre one's life around God.

i choose the later. drugs dont and cant be any god to us.

what is God to us? he is our source our peace and much more and identity. if anything in his creation takes that place then its a sin.

and even the gods are made from his creation. so there is the principal of that commandment. dont make or bow or claim or lean on any of my created elements and claim that they are are your source.

Perhaps I was wrong about the application of the Commandment - I'm not convinced I was, but I'm not certain enough to argue the point - so you could be right on that.

That still does not change my stance on cannabis, though: I have already admitted that addictions are sinful. My point is simply that it is entirely possible (even probable) to use cannabis without becoming addicted or entering a sinful state of mind.

when we look into what they do and go beyond the point of functioning to the point of being able to make sound judgements as in one cant drive safe, remember where they are at,and also has to have that fix.

for the record i drink caffeine alot and i can go without the caffiene the sugar does more then that. and i dont get mad or what not without either. just a habit.

just tired.i can drive, fly etc on caffiene but one cant say that with pot.

Exactly. You can make a case explaining why it is wrong to use cannabis up to a certain extent, but it is simply incorrect to assert than anything that alters ones mood or brain function is sinful! My original argument about this was directed at Abdullam's post below, btw: I don't want you to think I disagree with you on the basic principles of addictions, or that I am saying that using cannabis is always okay.

The use of mood altering drugs has nothing in common with the power of the Spirit. They should not be mentioned by the Christian. They are an alternative to faith.

 

[stovebolts]

Drugs suck... People who use drugs suck.

Don't suck..

Say no to Drugs.

There, now go get a bacon cheeseburger and you'll be just fine.

 

[Rance-Adams]

I've never used any illegal drugs or even smoked; that being said: God created this world and the things in it for us and our use. Most anything has good and bad qualities. Moderation is the key. People are prone to different sins, we need to realize what our weeknesses are and avoid those temptations. If something is illegal then we should follow "the law of the land".

 

[theLords]

Let's be very careful please, promotion of sinful behavior (like smoking marijuana) will absolutely not be tolerated.

Drugs suck... People who use drugs suck.

Don't suck..

Say no to Drugs.

There, now go get a bacon cheeseburger and you'll be just fine.

 

[westtexas]

Drugs suck... People who use drugs suck.

Don't suck..

Say no to Drugs.

:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

 

[jasoncran]

nice siggy ray. pm me. i wish to tell you something.

 

[westtexas]

pm me. i wish to tell you something.

done!