Marriage, fornication and porniea.

[FredFlanders]

Biblically couples were betrothed (engaged) by either by arrangement of their parents or if a couple had a sexual encounter with each other. The marriage took place at the time schedule of the Father of the Bride. The Groom and his Father during the engagement would go and prepare a home for the Bride. Sexual encounters between the couple were forbidden again until after the marriage. When this was done and the Father of the Bride was happy with the new home and the dowry paid then consent would be given for the marriage. This is same parallel of Christ returning for the Church and our Father in heaven will determine the time. If the father was not satisfied with the new arrangement for his daughter or the dowry not paid consent would not be given until such time all was put in order. The Father would have legal a legal right to deny the marriage if the groom was an adulterer, unbeliever or had other sexual misdemeanours.
The Word of God never used the Word “fornication†against anyone unless one of the engaged couple was not faithful and had a sexual encounter with another party.

Some laws of God were just common sense transactions which was not counted as evil, fornication or had a penalty as we read in Ex 22v 16 and Deut 22v 28-29.

Exodus 22v 16 If any man entice a maid that is not betrothed and lie with her he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
Deut22 v 28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her and lie with her and they be found. Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsels father fifty shekels of silver and he shall be his wife because he has humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Some however were evil, was fornication and had a penalty such as Deut 22v 23-24.
Here is an act of fornication which was called evil and had the penalty of death.

Deut22 v 23-24. If a damsel that is a virgin and be betrothed (engaged) to an husband, and a man find her in the city and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them out unto the gate of the city and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel because she cried not being in the city and the man because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife, so thou shalt put away this evil from you.

The Jewish culture has a better understanding about fulfilling a marriage than do many Christians allowing their children to marry if necessary once they have completed their Bar Mitzvah or Bit Mitzvah regardless of Government laws. (however when they are of legal age the couple register their marriage with the Government)
King Josiah was married and had two children by the time fifteen years old. Historical records would also show that Mary was pregnant with Christ in her teenage years maybe in her early to mid teenage years.

Regarding customs or laws of the land, if they contradict the Word of God then we obey the Word of God and not man's law. The Jew's followed God's law on marriage and do not put obstacles in the way of their children getting married if they cannot contain them selves nor does God discriminate on a person's age when it comes to marriage. "Render unto God what is God's render unto Caesar what is Caesar's". Marriage was created by God not Caesar.

Paul’s Prophesy
The Apostle Paul prophesied about young adults and marriage on this problem to those in the “Faith†that departed from His Word.
It is our responsibility that Christians have an easy path to marriage but that is not always the case. Paul warned us of this in the latter days in Timothy 4v 1-5 of this problem. Paul was not talking about a change in food laws but rather young adults and marriage. We read; Now the Spirit speak expressly, (take note of these words) that in the latter times (the last days) some shall depart from the faith (their trust in God) paying heed (paying attention) to seducing spirits (some of the things a seducing spirit would say- “your too young to get marriedâ€Â, “marriage will spoil your lifeâ€Â, “if you marry your partner it will end in divorceâ€Â, “you have nothing in common with your partnerâ€Â, “kids will ruin your lifeâ€Â, “you need to have an education before you get marriedâ€Â, “enjoy life before you get marriedâ€Â, “you will never have any money†etc) and doctrine of devils (miss leading teaching) Speaking lies (falsely/not from Gods word) in hypocrisy (acting/guilty of the same conduct, allowing marriage for themselves but not for others) having their conscience seared with a hot iron. (Not able to distinguish what is lawful and unlawful for a Christian) Forbidding (denying/refusing/hindering) to marry, and commanding (coming from a higher office) to abstain (kept from) from meats (Gods instructions/promises) which God has created to be received (Gods blessings to us) with thanksgiving (our praise to God) of them which believe (rely) and know (recognise/know accurately) the truth (nature of God). For every creature (new born soul) of God is good. (beautiful, handsome, excellent, surpassing, precious, useful, suitable, commendable, admiral, shapely and magnificent) and nothing to be refused (neglected, despised) if it be sanctified (made holy, purified, guided by) by the word of God and prayer. (Communion/relationship/friendship with God).

Fornication does not mean “sex before marriage.†The word “fornication†comes from the word “porneia†which was a district where the heather visited prostitutes thus the term “flee fornication†or “flee porneia†as we read in 1Cor 6v 18. Two Christian people who have slept together are not prostitutes unless they have slept with another party before. The Bible direction is for them to get married.

When the Bible refers to “fornication†it is referring to either man with man, woman with woman, man or woman with beast, prostitution, sex with no intention of marriage, relationship with an unbeliever, incest and idolatry and not someone who may have slept with their lifelong partner before a marriage certificate

 

[Caroline H]

I am unclear as to what you are saying in your post. Are you saying that it is not sinful for two loving Christians to have sex before marriage?
Please forgive me if that is not your intent..., I cannot agree. God has instituted marriage for the purpose of security, and as an expression of his relationship with his people. The church is the bride of Christ, but the culmination of the relationship will not be until the rapture, which is the set time appointed by God the Father. If marriage is an earthly example of this then it seems backwards to me to allow for premarital sex. Again, if that is not your point of view I appologize.

I do agree with you that people, especially Christians, should be encouraged to marry if they have found a suitable partner who is equally yolked with them (having the same spiritual maturity level and compatible callings). Our culture too often considers marriage as secondary to achieving success...the pressures are to finish your education first, earn enough money to buy a house and car, sew your wild oats, etc. But marriage and family should be viewed as the defining criteria for success, because you can have all the material things in the world and still be unfulfilled in life without a family, unless you are called to be single.

 

[lovely]

I agree, Carol. The Lord bless you.

 

[FredFlanders]

I am unclear as to what you are saying in your post. Are you saying that it is not sinful for two loving Christians to have sex before marriage?
Please forgive me if that is not your intent..., I cannot agree. God has instituted marriage for the purpose of security, and as an expression of his relationship with his people. The church is the bride of Christ, but the culmination of the relationship will not be until the rapture, which is the set time appointed by God the Father. If marriage is an earthly example of this then it seems backwards to me to allow for premarital sex. Again, if that is not your point of view I appologize.

I do agree with you that people, especially Christians, should be encouraged to marry if they have found a suitable partner who is equally yolked with them (having the same spiritual maturity level and compatible callings). Our culture too often considers marriage as secondary to achieving success...the pressures are to finish your education first, earn enough money to buy a house and car, sew your wild oats, etc. But marriage and family should be viewed as the defining criteria for success, because you can have all the material things in the world and still be unfulfilled in life without a family, unless you are called to be single.

What I am conveying in the post is that when two Christians get together sexually before a “legal†wedding the Bible direction is for them to be engaged and then marriage at an appropriate time as decided upon by the parents in particular the father of the bride. Some religious people are quick to condemn couples in this situation rather than help them fulfill the marriage. The Bible did not call this fornication nor was it evil in God’s sight. It only became evil if the marriage was not fulfilled and one of the parties went on to have a relationship with some one else.
I am not encouraging pre marital sex but some times the parents and their children do not get the timing of the wedding correct for what ever reason and should not be condemned but help given to fulfill the marriage.

 

[Blazin Bones]

You may not be trying to encourage premarital sex, but it sure reads that way. In Deuteronomy 22, while it does not say, "premarital sex is sin," it does teach in verse 28-29 that a man who lays hold of a virgin and lies with her, that this man must pay to make this woman his wife and that this man is not allowed to dismiss her because he has defiled, KVJ reads humbled, her. While it does not flat out call such a thing sin, it is very clear that since God had to provide Moses and Israel with this "if this, then that" clause that something about this occuring is wrong or not the right way to do something. Well, if it's not the right way to pursue a woman, then it must be a wrong way, and if God views it as something that we should not do, is that not what we call sin?

 

[FredFlanders]

You may not be trying to encourage premarital sex, but it sure reads that way. In Deuteronomy 22, while it does not say, "premarital sex is sin," it does teach in verse 28-29 that a man who lays hold of a virgin and lies with her, that this man must pay to make this woman his wife and that this man is not allowed to dismiss her because he has defiled, KVJ reads humbled, her. While it does not flat out call such a thing sin, it is very clear that since God had to provide Moses and Israel with this "if this, then that" clause that something about this occuring is wrong or not the right way to do something. Well, if it's not the right way to pursue a woman, then it must be a wrong way, and if God views it as something that we should not do, is that not what we call sin?

Blazin Bones,
If two persons have sex before marriage, what are you saying the Church and parents should do? And if they are say 16 years of age how should this be handled?
Fred.

 

[Blazin Bones]

It should be made plain and clear that they have sinned. If not in premarital sex, thenin not living in the fruit of the spirit of patience. We cannot force them to live for God, but we can make it certain that they are in sin if they continue the practice.

 

[FredFlanders]

It should be made plain and clear that they have sinned. If not in premarital sex, thenin not living in the fruit of the spirit of patience. We cannot force them to live for God, but we can make it certain that they are in sin if they continue the practice.

BlazinBones,
That is a very interesting religious interpretation. Where do you get that from? My Bible says that the couple are betrothed (engaged) then married at an appropriate time. The true and living God is not about condemning young couples but has a practical solution for such a matter.

Exodus 22v 16 If any man entice a maid that is not betrothed and lie with her he shall surely endow her to be his wife.

1 Cor 7 v 9 However if you cannot contain your desires you should get married, it is better for you to get married than to burn with sexual desire.

1 Cor 7 v 36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not, let them marry.

Fred.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Please go back to my first post in this thread. As soon as a man sleeps with a woman who is a virgin, Deuteronomy teaches that this man is to marry the virgin. Again, basic reasoning would suggest that if this were normal and completely acceptable, God would not have needed to instruct them in this matter.

Your passage from Exodus for the most part echos the passage I gave from Deuteronomy. God would not have needed to instruct Moses of what to do when such a thing occured if it were plainly acceptable for a God fearing man and woman to engage in sex before marraige. The man in the case of many teens has not even left his parents and is not able to cleave to a woman as his wife. Again, this shows at least impatience which is not a fruit of the Spirit andf thus has no place in the Christian life.

The first passage from 1 Corinthians deals with the issue of whether a man should or should not marry. It does not address premarital sex at all. The second passage could be doing so, but behaving uncomingly could also be simply lusting after a virgin. I doubt either of us will claim to know the mind of Paul.

 

[FredFlanders]

Please go back to my first post in this thread. As soon as a man sleeps with a woman who is a virgin, Deuteronomy teaches that this man is to marry the virgin. Again, basic reasoning would suggest that if this were normal and completely acceptable, God would not have needed to instruct them in this matter.

Your passage from Exodus for the most part echos the passage I gave from Deuteronomy. God would not have needed to instruct Moses of what to do when such a thing occured if it were plainly acceptable for a God fearing man and woman to engage in sex before marraige. The man in the case of many teens has not even left his parents and is not able to cleave to a woman as his wife. Again, this shows at least impatience which is not a fruit of the Spirit andf thus has no place in the Christian life.

The first passage from 1 Corinthians deals with the issue of whether a man should or should not marry. It does not address premarital sex at all. The second passage could be doing so, but behaving uncomingly could also be simply lusting after a virgin. I doubt either of us will claim to know the mind of Paul.

Blazinbones,
God addresses sex before marriage in a common sense manner without all the religious condemnation. And that is that they are engaged and married at the appropriate time. If they were not responsible enough the marriage would be held of until all was in order. The father of the bride was given this authority by God to when the marriage was going to take place.
Paul said some would be like him and not marry and some who could not contain their sexual desire would find a partner in the Lord.
Yes uncomely behavior is lusting after a woman but again the direction is to marry. Because parents and children quite often do not get the timing right for a marriage, sex can happen before the marriage date. We do not know the reason why some couples cannot marry at an appropriate date. I know couples who have had to put up with prejudiced parents or parents who think money and a professional career is more important than marriage and sacrifice their children to idols. God understands this and there is no condemnation as long as the marriage is fulfilled and stay loyal to their partners.
Fred.

 

[Caroline H]

So then why should anyone wait? If I know I'm going to marry someone, why should I wait to have intimacy with him? If that is the case then it should be fine for all engaged couples to carry on as though they were married.

The fact, however, is that it's just not right. God ordained marriage for a reason. In some cultures all you have to do is grab a woman, take her to your hut, and the whole village recognizes that you have taken her to be your wife. But in our culture you have to have a ceremony and have an official pronounce you husband and wife. Since we are to obey the laws of the land, God will not recognize us married until we have taken the neccessary steps to do so. Therefore, to just excuse premarital sex on the basis of "oh, were Christians and were going to get married anyway" doesn't cut it.

Yes, sometimes there are circumstances beyond control that prolong the wait. But that does not give people permission to take what is not rightfully theirs yet. Christians, more than anyone, should be able to set an example to others by waiting. I believe that the Holy Spirit gives strength to His people to resist temptation, and rewards those who do.

 

[Blazin Bones]

[quote="FredFlanders
Blazinbones,
God addresses sex before marriage in a common sense manner without all the religious condemnation. And that is that they are engaged and married at the appropriate time. If they were not responsible enough the marriage would be held of until all was in order. The father of the bride was given this authority by God to when the marriage was going to take place.
Paul said some would be like him and not marry and some who could not contain their sexual desire would find a partner in the Lord.
Yes uncomely behavior is lusting after a woman but again the direction is to marry. Because parents and children quite often do not get the timing right for a marriage, sex can happen before the marriage date. We do not know the reason why some couples cannot marry at an appropriate date. I know couples who have had to put up with prejudiced parents or parents who think money and a professional career is more important than marriage and sacrifice their children to idols. God understands this and there is no condemnation as long as the marriage is fulfilled and stay loyal to their partners.
Fred.[/quote]

Okay, let me ask this. It is not uncommon at all for a couple to get engaged and find that they are not ment to marry someone. By your arguments, if these two people love God, they have not sinned if they have sex with one another, they just can't do it again. However, after praying about their marraige they feel that it is not right and they go their separate ways. How is this instance not adultery?

 

[FredFlanders]

So then why should anyone wait? If I know I'm going to marry someone, why should I wait to have intimacy with him? If that is the case then it should be fine for all engaged couples to carry on as though they were married.

The fact, however, is that it's just not right. God ordained marriage for a reason. In some cultures all you have to do is grab a woman, take her to your hut, and the whole village recognizes that you have taken her to be your wife. But in our culture you have to have a ceremony and have an official pronounce you husband and wife. Since we are to obey the laws of the land, God will not recognize us married until we have taken the neccessary steps to do so. Therefore, to just excuse premarital sex on the basis of "oh, were Christians and were going to get married anyway" doesn't cut it.

Yes, sometimes there are circumstances beyond control that prolong the wait. But that does not give people permission to take what is not rightfully theirs yet. Christians, more than anyone, should be able to set an example to others by waiting. I believe that the Holy Spirit gives strength to His people to resist temptation, and rewards those who do.

Caromurp,
The most orderly way is to wait until your marriage before you have sex with your partner. God gave the parents of the couple the authority to marry their children in particular the father of the bride, if you read the pattern of the scriptures. In many cases the parents do not take up this authority and the children are left to their own means to marry and quite often the timing of the marriage can be after a sexual encounter with each other, even pregnancy. God never condemned nor was there a penalty for this. The Bible direction was for the couple to marry and not condemnation.
Regarding the laws of the land; marriage had nothing to do with the laws of the land. If you know the laws of the land in most countries you will see that the laws would resemble Sodom and Gomorra laws and not God’s laws. Render unto Caesar what is Caesars and render unto God what is God’s. Marriage always belonged to God not Caesar and God gave the authority to marry to the parents.
Fred.

 

[FredFlanders]

Okay, let me ask this. It is not uncommon at all for a couple to get engaged and find that they are not ment to marry someone. By your arguments, if these two people love God, they have not sinned if they have sex with one another, they just can't do it again. However, after praying about their marraige they feel that it is not right and they go their separate ways. How is this instance not adultery?
Blazinbones,
If a couple were engaged and had a sexual encounter with each other they would need to be married. Not to marry and go on to find another partner would be fornication and against God’s will. If they are repentant to God and love God they will follow God’s word on this. If they prayed to God about the situation the only answer to come from God is to get married. If they said they prayed and they were told not to get married then this answer would not have come from God but Satan as this would be against the Word of God. The scriptures in the first post will explain what God's will is in this situation.
Fred.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Your idea here assumes that they prayed God's will before the intercourse as well then right? Do you honestly see God saying, "Its okay to have sex, just get married afterwards at some point?" I don't.

God uses James to tell us that we do not know what tomorrow brings. If that is the case, then no matter how in love a person can be with another they do not have the rights of marriage until they are married.

Suppose a Christian man has sex with a Christian woman he intends to marry, but then she suddenly dies by illness or some accident. The Bible makes it clear God knows the future, therefore He would have never said it was okay for these two to have sex because He knew this woman was going to come home to His heaven before they were going to wed. This man is now an adulteress because he has slept with a woman who was not, is not, and now can never be his wife. If we do not know the future, then how is it right for any of us, whether we intend marriage or not?

 

[FredFlanders]

Your idea here assumes that they prayed God's will before the intercourse as well then right? Do you honestly see God saying, "Its okay to have sex, just get married afterwards at some point?" I don't.

God uses James to tell us that we do not know what tomorrow brings. If that is the case, then no matter how in love a person can be with another they do not have the rights of marriage until they are married.

Suppose a Christian man has sex with a Christian woman he intends to marry, but then she suddenly dies by illness or some accident. The Bible makes it clear God knows the future, therefore He would have never said it was okay for these two to have sex because He knew this woman was going to come home to His heaven before they were going to wed. This man is now an adulteress because he has slept with a woman who was not, is not, and now can never be his wife. If we do not know the future, then how is it right for any of us, whether we intend marriage or not?

Blazin Bones,
The answer is simple for us. If you intend have sex then be prepared to get married as the Bible directs.
And regarding the future; That is in God’s hands so we put our trust in him rather than negative circumstances and fear.
There is no condemnation to the man or woman in your in your example.
Fred.

 

[Caroline H]

Fred, I think I understand what you are saying, can you help me out a bit?

Are you saying that, no, it isn't right to have sex before marriage, but that if you do you are obligated to get married? It sounds simple to you, but I have been trying to sort it out from your previous posts. At first it sounded to me like you were saying that it is ok to have sex as long as you know that you will be married sometime, but I would like for you to be specific.

Please correct me if I am wrong...thanks

 

[FredFlanders]

Fred, I think I understand what you are saying, can you help me out a bit?

Are you saying that, no, it isn't right to have sex before marriage, but that if you do you are obligated to get married? It sounds simple to you, but I have been trying to sort it out from your previous posts. At first it sounded to me like you were saying that it is ok to have sex as long as you know that you will be married sometime, but I would like for you to be specific.

Please correct me if I am wrong...thanks

Caromurp,
The most orderly way is to be married before you have sex but if that is not the case for what ever reason then the couple should marry at an appropriate time. God never condemned the couple, nor was there a penalty, nor did He call this fornication unless the marriage was not fulfilled and one of the couple went on to have a relationship with another party. My point is Religion is quick to condemn couples in this situation not knowing the scriptures. Believers should be doing what they can to help the couple fulfill the marriage rather than this baseless condemnation.
Fred.

 

[PrimeRoot]

Marriage Definition

Greetings everyone.

I THINK my registration is approved, even if my spelling and formatting never are, since Im typing this in advance. [Thanks to the admin and owner for hosting this discussion, I know its an uphill (and nearly thankless) expense of time and cash. Now my part... hopefully a ministry also...]

Straight to the topic.

Fred, I think I may have some serious relief for you, and perhaps even a bridge across the abyss for those honestly struggling to get on your wave length. Thats my hope here.

Make no mistake tho, my goal is not to grab anyone by the horns and cram your next spiritual meal down your neck. I think scripture needs to be assimilated willingly:

"...they received the word
with all readiness of mind,
and searched the scriptures daily,
whether those things were so."
Acts 17:11

"... try the spirits
whether they are of God:
because many false prophets
are gone out into the world."
1 John 4:1

Each time I hear this discussion, I think of Jesus standing, calmly facing a bunch of Pharisees, in Matt 19:4 and referring to "the beginning" and quoting Genesis 2: 24... "a man ...shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh".

Im also reminded of Paul, quoting the same verse in Genesis, and comparing the same sort of cleaving to that of Adam and Eve, and asking us all this question:

"What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh."

So Fred, the key you seek is not in trying to substantiate that a non-virgin SHOULD marry, but merely giving the simple proof that a non-virgin IS married.

Looking back before Judaism, Christianity, and certainly before AOG, or the Methodist, or Mennonite... something firmly fixed Jesus gaze on Adam and Eve, and Paul urged the same.

"this evil in sending me away
is greater than the other
that thou didst unto me"

- the raped virgin of 2Sam.13

Folk, who are YOU sending away with your theology?

 

[Blazin Bones]

So then you do not believe there is anything such as premarital Sex? You have just suggested that for a woman having sex is as good as a marriage vow, and likewise, if she is married, he is married as well? This completely ignores the idea that a woman must be given in marraige. You reasoning suggests that if an Impatienct Christian man takes a Woman and has sex with her he has married her and if he keeps her he's done nothing wrong? That sounds a good bit like Middle Eastern Islamic practce to me...

By the way, save the cheaps shots about misleading theology for another site.