Blazin Bones
Member
Wow...so you are saying it is perfectly fine to get aroused in sexual fantasies of another man's wife or a woman you are not committed to in marraige?
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Caroline H
Member
What if you do have his permission? Is it ok to have sex with another man's wife if he consents? :o
S
Sadie101
Guest
Yes, thats right. Its the motive behind your thoughts that is in. Not the thoughts in and of themselves.Blazin Bones said:
If you plan on seducing, stealing, luring away another mans wife, then of course that is a sin, because it says where ones heart and motive and intention is at. God looks at the heart.
It is not a sin simply to fantasize. Normal sexual thoughts and feelings is NOT a sin. They are God given. They are not meant to be turned on and off like a light-switch.
There is no passage in the bible that says it is a sin to have sexual thoughts and sexual fantasies towards the opposite sex unless they are a spouse. Repressing sexual desires is not what Jesus is expecting of us.
Now i am not saying there is no such thing as sexual sin, because there is. Rape, molestation, incest, using someone for sex, stuff like that. Doing something that is generally going to hurt someone else is a sin.
And remember, we are under the law of love.
If he says it is okay, then no one gets hurt. Tho i don't think many men would want that.caromurp said:
..tho apparently in the bible days it was more of a common practice, same with polygamy.The culture back then was very different then today's world.
R
ResilientFaith
Guest
caromurp said:
adultery is part of the definition of fornication right?
H2181
zaw-naw'
A primitive root (highly fed and therefore wanton); to commit adultery (usually of the female, and less often of simple forniciation, rarely of involuntary ravishment); figuratively to commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Jehovah): - (cause to) commit fornication, X continually, X great, (be an, play the) harlot, (cause to be, play the) whore, (commit, fall to) whoredom, (cause to) go a-whoring, whorish.
G4202
por-ni'-ah
From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.
Blazin Bones
Member
Sadie101 said:
We may be under the Law of love, but what you are describing is openly lusting after a woman who is not your wife. This IS CERTAINLY a sin. Paul taught in 1 Corinthian 9:27 that we are to beat our body's and make them our slaves. In 1 Thessalonians 4 we are aught to conduct ourselves in a holy manner not in a manner given over to our passions and lusts. For one to allow their minds to drift towards intimate thoughts is EXACTLY what Jesus was preaching AGAINST in Matthew 5.
I do agree that our bodies natually desire sexual intimacy and that to merely think of sex is not a sin. However, the moment you start desiring sex with a particular person that you are not betrothed to, you are coveting thier sexuality, which is sin. You seem to forget that even some things that are natural practices for mankind are the result of our sinful nature.
As for this idea of wife swapping being fine in scripture, show me the passage or stop teaching it is acceptable. Man's cultural tolerances do not dictate what is right, but rather God's word and God's word alone!
R
Rick W
Guest
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
No way out of that. Our sinful nature condemns us.
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
No way out of that. Our sinful nature condemns us.
stovebolts
Member
Sadie101 said:
While some of what you have written I can agree with, perhaps a deeper understanding may be just below the surface.
The short and quick answer to what the commandment is saying, as well as what Jesus is saying, and how it ties into the word pornia, I believe that the culture where this word derives needs to be understood.
Pornia came from the shipyards where goods were sold, or exchanged for services. Pornia, simply put, was a simple, binding transaction between parties involving commodities. From there, it evolved into the sex market where money was exchanged for sex.
This view of sex as a commodity for exchange is not the way God created man and woman to exist (Genesis 1 and 2). Humanity is mind, body and soul. When we reduce another human being to just a body and treat sex as a transaction and not a union (two become one), we're traveling further east of Eden and heading toward hedonism, which is translated as pleasure and lust.
Luke 8:14, Titus 3:3, James 4:1, James 4:3 and 2 Peter 2:13.
S
Sadie101
Guest
Blazin Bones said:
We may be under the Law of love, but what you are describing is openly lusting after a woman who is not your wife. This IS CERTAINLY a sin. Paul taught in 1 Corinthian 9:27 that we are to beat our body's and make them our slaves. In 1 Thessalonians 4 we are aught to conduct ourselves in a holy manner not in a manner given over to our passions and lusts. For one to allow their minds to drift towards intimate thoughts is EXACTLY what Jesus was preaching AGAINST in Matthew 5.
[/quote:3uev4vvg]
not even.1 John 2:15-17
15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
You gotta stay in context there. The lusts of the flesh is the pride of life. NOT sexual fantasizes.
Who told you that? That's the most twisted version i have ever heard. That is not what Jesus was implying. He is talking about desiring to steal another mans wife away.
If one really does their homework of what the original Greek words mean and find out what it was really was like in that culture during those days, you will know Jesus is not referring to sexual fantasies OR masturbation for that matter.
How sexually repressed can Christians get? :halo
That is NOT a sin. You're twisting what the word of God says. Fantasizing about sex with anther person other then your spouse is NOT a sin. That is not what lust/covet means. Lust of the flesh is not sexual fantasies. That's what the church has been taught, and MOST Christians fall for it hook line and sinker. Lust of the flesh is having a love for the world.Well...polygamy was practiced in bible days and God was NOT against it. He even said to David He would give him more wives if he wanted it.
Blazin Bones
Member
Sadie101 said:
1 John 2:15-17
15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
You gotta stay in context there. The lusts of the flesh is the pride of life. NOT sexual fantasizes.
You are equating the lust of the flesh to the pride of life, when John is clearly saying they are two separate means of sin? Clearly you are using a different hermaneutical approach than I am?Also, what about the lust of the eyes, do we just skip that and not seek to understand how we can sin just by what we allow our eyes to see? Just as when a man allows himself to sit and stare at a naked woman who is not his wife is sin how can his resulting day dreams not be?
This arguement is not based on scripture and reason but assumptions and opinion. I studied the Greek for over a year and a half and the context is not as different as you would presume. You are assuming meaning based on assumed cultural context and yet you claim certainty out of these ideas. However you have not given any good evidence as to why we should refute centuries of scholarship, trusted scriptural traslations and just plain reason.
How does one arrive at the idea of concocting a plan to steal a man's wife without first allowing himself to fantasize about his wife first? Even if you contextual arguement had merit to it you would still need to refute where Jesus taught that if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. (Matthew 18:8) If fantasizing about another mans wife can lead to a desire to steal her away, how is that permittable?
You have no evidence to the contrary. I have already shown the lapse in your hermaneutical method.
Where does the Bible allow for Wife Swapping? Provide Scriptural evidence or stop promoting the notions.
Since you've mentioned, also add where God tells David he would add more wives to him if he wanted them.
S
Sadie101
Guest
One can easily fantasize about someone without desiring/planning to steal them away from someone else. Its a matter of respect. Its a matter of the heart.Blazin Bones said:
This here explains it better then i can.
"The Church is always talking about David’s adultery with Bathseba, but never talks about God solution in 2 Samuel 12:8 where God told David that instead of stealing another man wife away from him and killing him, that he should have prayed to God and ask for as many women as he wanted and God would have given him as many women as he wanted, as long has he did not steal and betray another man by stealing his wife. This show clearly that God is not hung up with how many women you have as long as you are not stealing other men wives from them.
In both the OT and NT they would use their sexual desires to worship a sex, fertility deity, “god†and that was fornication and evil. Sex is not evil. But praising some other man made deity god for creating sex and worshipping so that god would give you good farm crops is what is evil (that is adultery against God). In the Bible adultery against God was worshipping another deity other then Him. Sex had nothing to do with it at all. Betrayal is what adultery is about not sex.
If I say you could have sex with my wife all day long, that is not an offence or betrayal, that would be with permission and a love gift to you and my wife to enjoy and have fun.
Even Abraham gave his wife, Sarah, up to have sex with another kings 2 different times that was not sin, But God stepped in and used it to help Abraham gain more wealth. Abraham sold his wife to these kings. What was bad about it was it was permanent sale. God stepped in to reverse the permanent sale part of it and Abraham got to keep the things and got his wife back on top of it. 2 different times this same thing happen. Both times God blessed them for it.
(The New Living Translation ) 2 Samuel 12:8 I (God) gave you his (Saul's) house and his wives and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. And if that had not been enough, I would have given you much, much more."
stovebolts
Member
Sadie,
Excuse me, but I don't recall the text stating that Abram sold Sari...
Genesis 12:10-13 (kjv) And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land. And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon: Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive. Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Genesis 20:1-4 (kjv) And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar. And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
Also, I don't read God telling David anything..
2 Samuel 12:18 (kjv) And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
Lust could also be translated as hedonism since hedone is the root word here. You do understand what hedonism is don't you?
James 4:1-5 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Excuse me, but I don't recall the text stating that Abram sold Sari...
Genesis 12:10-13 (kjv) And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land. And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon: Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive. Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Genesis 20:1-4 (kjv) And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar. And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
Also, I don't read God telling David anything..
2 Samuel 12:18 (kjv) And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
Lust could also be translated as hedonism since hedone is the root word here. You do understand what hedonism is don't you?
James 4:1-5 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
R
Rick W
Guest
Sadie101 said:
That's about as far as this thread is going to go.