Bible Study Mary & Joseph weren't rejected from an 'inn'...

[cyberjosh]

Upon studying some on the story of the nativity of Jesus and a helpful hint from a Discovery Channel program, I have now discovered that the word for 'inn' used in Luke 2:7 is not the same word used for 'inn' elsewhere in the Bible, and it infact has a rather general meaning. The Greek word in Luke 2:7 is Kataluma and it is translated "guest room" in Luke 22:11 to designate the upper room in which the Lord's Supper was enacted. Its root word is also used in Luke 19:7 with Jesus going to "be a guest" or "find lodging" at Zacchaeus' house.

As was shown in the discovery channel program and as I've now read in several articles, typical 1st century Jewish homes had two levels, but not on top of one another. One side of the house was elevated, led up to by a small set of stairs where the living quarters were, but on the base level on the other side animals would be taken into the home and stay there. As most people should now know, Jesus was never stated to have been born in a stable. That is an incorrect assumption from the Bible's statement that Jesus was laid in a manger. In this new scenario which has come to light there would have been no room in the upper guest quarters of the house for Joseph and Mary to stay and lay Jesus, so they would have laid him in a spare feed trough (a manger) of the animals on the lower floor of the house. 1st century houses that have been excavated do indeed have built in mangers hewed into the rock for the animals to eat from.

To further this interpretation Luke uses a different word to denote a commercial inn. In the story of the Good Samaritan Jesus talks about the Samaritan taking the injured man to a pandokheion, whick is a proper Greek name for an inn. Kataluma is a more general term and litterally means "to loosen down", in essence a habitation place to settle down for the night. In the context of a house it would refer to the section reserved for guests as was true for the upper room in the Lord's Supper. In a larger Jewish home this upper guest quarters could also be on the roof.

 

[cyberjosh]

For a more articulate treatment of this topic look at this site which gives a broader treatment and examination of the word.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Very good post, Shark!
I agree with the idea, if not all of the details.
I have heard that the 'inn' in those days was just a place at the edge of town for travelers to roll out their bed. Maybe a tarp like roof held up by poles in a tent like fashion.

Try to imagine Mary, a little Jewish mama, ready to give birth just any moment. Joseph walks up to her as she sits on the donkey. "Honey, the inn is full. But good news! I saw a barn. Just watch your step." Mary would have responded something like "Oy vey! Not if it were raining fire and brimstone would I deliver this baby in a stable."

 

[cyberjosh]

I agree with the idea, if not all of the details.

Thank you. And what details do you think need to be worked on? This concept is new to me also and I've only just begun to research it in any depth. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

An answer that I got in prayer, and I can not find anything in Scripture to confirm it.

I asked the Lord where He was born, when I came to the conclusion that it was not a stable. (There is no stable in the nativity story. No inn keeper either.)
I believe that the answer that the Lord gave me was that He was born under a fig tree.

Specifically, this fig tree.

Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

Fig trees in that area can grow very large, and the branches bow down to the ground, making it tent like. (Sounds cozy, huh?)

Of course this inspired many questions from me. The Lord and I had several discussions about this tree. I can only share with you what I believe.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was a fig tree. That is why Scripture does not say that they sewed apple leaves together...

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

This fig tree, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the tree that Jesus cursed.

Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

As a result of the tree withering, the people in that area were concerned that a disease would spread and cut it down. It was cut into timbers, and thrown on a wood pile.

Still not the end of that tree. The Lord told me that the wood from that tree
showed up one more time in Scripture.

John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

 

[cyberjosh]

Very interesting....

But God would never give someone a revelation like this unless it had a practical application. What significance (possibly theological significance) would it have if Jesus was born under a fig tree?

P.S. I respect your opinion, but let me give you my understanding of what Jesus said to Nathaniel. I always understood it as that Jesus had in his divine omnicience seen Nathaniel under the tree that day (because Jesus used the statement "before Philip called thee" which would have been unnecessary to say if he was refering to an event 30 years ago), and when he told Nathaniel he realized that Jesus had to have been from God to have known that. Jesus also used his omnicience to discern that he was an Israelite "in whom there is no guile". That's how I understood it anyway.

 

[jgredline]

John 1:43-51 NKJV
43 The following day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him, "Follow Me." 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote-Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

46 And Nathanael said to him, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?"

Philip said to him, "Come and see."

47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!"

48 Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?"

Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."

49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"

50 Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you, I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these." 51 And He said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man."



2000 years ago during the time of Christ, Jewish students traditionally studied under fig trees.The phraze ''Under the fig tree was also a rabbanic term or saying for ''meditating on the scriptures''

I believe it was under a fig tree (meditaing on the scriptures) that Nathanael was very likely studying the story of Jacob.
Whenever Jesus introduced a saying with the words Most assuredly (literally “Amen, amenâ€Â ), He was always about to say something very important.
Here He gave Nathanael a picture of the time in the future when He would come back to reign over all the earth. The world will then know that the carpenter̢۪s Son who lived in despised Nazareth was truly the Son of God and Israel̢۪s King. In that day, heaven will open. The favor of God will rest upon the King as He reigns, with Jerusalem as His capital. I believe the Lord Jesus at this time was reading Nathaniels mind.
So is likely that Nathanael had been meditating on the story of Jacob̢۪s ladder (Gen. 28:12). That ladder, with its ascending and descending angels, is a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, the only access to heaven. The angels of God will ascend and descend upon the Son of Man. Angels are servants of God, traveling like flames of fire on His errands. When Jesus reigns as King, these angels will travel back and forth between heaven and earth, fulfilling His will.
Jesus was saying to Nathanael that he had seen only very minor demonstrations of His Messiahship. In the future Reign of Christ, he would see the Lord Jesus fully revealed as God̢۪s anointed Son. Then all mankind would know that Someone good did come out of Nazareth. This is where knowing Jewish history and customs really pays off.

 

[cyberjosh]

I'm sure every one's input is most valuable but I'm afraid that this thread is going to get highjacked if we don't get back on track. Gabby has been the only one thus far to comment on the main topic. Does anyone have any comments to add for the sake of the main topic?

 

[jgredline]

Cyber
Sorry about that. The docummentory you saw sounds pretty accurate to me. Nothing new there.

 

[cyberjosh]

Sorry about that. The docummentory you saw sounds pretty accurate to me. Nothing new there.

No prob. And thanks. That helps reaffirm that idea. I honestly had never thought to look at the Greek word behind 'inn' before so this was news to me.

~Josh

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Shark,

Not to get off topic, but here is another note to add about the fig tree. Many years ago I shared the same thing with a Pastor friend of mine. As I spoke, I could see some excitement in his face. When I finished, he told about a visit that he had made to the Holy land some time before. They were touring on foot, and near Bethlehem. He had to ...um....excuse himself from the group and went off the side of the road a little ways.
While he was out there, he stopped to sit down on a tree stump. He was intrigued by two things. One was the way the stump seemed to be so old that it was petrified. The other...there was a green sprig growing out of it.
He had thought about that while I was telling my story, and then thought of these verses, where Jesus was speaking of the end of the age~~~

Mat 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Thank you. And what details do you think need to be worked on? This concept is new to me also and I've only just begun to research it in any depth. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

God Bless,

~Josh

cybershark,

You might be interested in researching the 'swaddling cloth'. I understand that this cloth was often used like a sash around the waist, in a sort of belt like fashion. The purpose of swaddling cloth however, was in the event of the death of the person, and they were not close to family or someone that could take care of the body, this swaddling cloth was used to wrap the body.

Are you studying the subject of the entire nativity, or just the inn?

Found a link for you...
http://www.christiananswers.net/christm ... stmas.html

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I just wanted to share this with you. Perhaps if Christians were to support the use of Christian emoticons, the number of them available will increase.

Baby Jesus and Lamb animation is copyright © 2006 by ARG! Cartoon Animation. Permission granted for use of ARG! animated baby Jesus and lamb cartoons on non-commercial web pages with a credit and link to http://www.artie.com per our terms of use. Get a commercial license for use of our cartoons and graphics on commercial websites. Updated 12/17/2005.

 

[Oscar3]

Gabby
Why are you teaching falsely. Jesus was not wearing a blue set of PJ's he was wearing Green ones :-D . In addition to this I don't believe the bible makes mention of a sheep, There were 99 sheeps because one got lost. You also forgot the star :-D and what about the wise women :-D
Yep gabby you are a false teacher. I know this because your accuser has a masters. That means he is smart :-D

 

[Oscar3]

lUKE
4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, 5 to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child. 6 So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered. 7 And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. NKJV


2:3, 4 The registration, following Jewish custom, took place at a person's ancestral home (see 2 Sam. 24). The journey from Nazareth to Bethlehem was about 90 miles, at least a three-day trip.

2:5 his betrothed wife: The fact that Mary made the journey with Joseph suggests that they were already married. However, the marriage had not yet been consummated (see Matt. 1:24, 25).

2:7 Swaddling cloths were strips of cloth wrapped around a baby to keep its arms and legs straight. Firstborn Son implies that Mary had other children (see Matt. 1:25; 13:55; Mark 3:31). The manger was probably a feeding trough for animals. Jesus was probably born in a stable or in a cave that served as one. The inn was most likely a reception room in a private home or a space at a public shelter, not a large building with several individual rooms.

 

[Atonement]

I will be moving over the next couple of days, so until I have the time and can get back to deal with the violators on this thread, I am locking the thread. ONLY TEMP...

Be be back on shortly:
-Atone

 

[Vic C.]

I have been given permission and blessings to clean up, unlock and move this thread in the hopes that we can discuss and stay on topic.

Thanks all.

Vic

 

[Vic C.]

Good OP shark. I like the way it was all put into proper, historical context. Gabby, you made a good point or two also. There is no mention of an innkeeper or a stable. They are stories passed down by traditions. It also bothers me when I hear that Jesus was born in a manger. Duh! That would imply that Mary was lying in a manger when she gave birth. No mention of that in Luke’s account either.

It is most likely that the animals were kept in one of two places; one, in the lower portion of the home where many families kept their animals and two, in a cave. Many times a cave nearby their home was used to “house’ the animals. Out of the two, the home is probably the more likely place. The reason is; during the Passover season, families were to keep the Passover lamb at home for inspection for four days. It would be procured on the 10th. Of Nisan to be slaughtered on the 14th.

Good reason to have a manger on hand, heh? Lol

Though the lower part of the home is most likely the place of birth, there is one more place to consider. In order to figure out where He was born, maybe we should be thinking about when He was born.

From what Luke tells us, (another topic) if we do some simple math, taking into account from conception to birth is aprox. Nine months, we might conclude Jesus was born in late Sept./ early October… right around the time of the Feast of Tabernacles. Sukkot.

What is a sukkot? Well, it is a temporary dwelling place, most likely a tent. The main thing is it has to have at least three enclosed sides. We can save this for another discussion sometime or you can do the research yourself. I will point out one thing:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The word dwelt can also be translated… tabernacled.

14 And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth. (LITV)

The actual literal translation says:

14. And the Word flesh became. And pitched {his} tent among us, …

Anyways, if Jesus was born at this time, maybe they were laid up in one of these temporary enclosures and the manger was brought to them to lay the baby in after birth.

Something to think about.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Thank you Vic!


I had never heard the thought that Mary may have actually been laying in a manger when she gave birth. Is it safe to assume that she was laying down at the time?

 

[Vic C.]

:-D I think you may have misunderstood me. I was stating that saying Jesus was born in a manger is inappropriate. All the Bible says is He was laid him in a manger.

Hey, I don't know if she was lying down, standing up, squating, whaterver 8-) The Bible isn't specific and I'm not sure it even matters. He was born and that's good enough for me.