Bible Study Mary & Joseph weren't rejected from an 'inn'...

[Gabbylittleangel]

I was being sarcastic. sorry :-D

 

[cyberjosh]

From what Luke tells us, (another topic) if we do some simple math, taking into account from conception to birth is aprox. Nine months, we might conclude Jesus was born in late Sept./ early October… right around the time of the Feast of Tabernacles. Sukkot.

What is a sukkot? Well, it is a temporary dwelling place, most likely a tent. The main thing is it has to have at least three enclosed sides. We can save this for another discussion sometime or you can do the research yourself. I will point out one thing:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The word dwelt can also be translated… tabernacled.

14 And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth. (LITV)

The actual literal translation says:

14. And the Word flesh became. And pitched {his} tent among us, …

Anyways, if Jesus was born at this time, maybe they were laid up in one of these temporary enclosures and the manger was brought to them to lay the baby in after birth.

That's an interesting theory, but the Chronology would have to be cleaned up significantly for us to make too big an assumption that it took place during the Sukkot.

As for the Greek word for "tabernacled", it is Skenoo from the Hebrew cognates SKN, which often spoke of God's dwelling presence in the wilderness Tabernacle and the Temple. We get our word Shekinah from this, so I think is was more a statement of God's indwelling presence rather than an emphasis on a physical dwelling place.

 

[jgredline]

Have any of you watched the movie the Nativity Story?
I saw it last week, and trully it blessed me. I thought it was going to be boring, but was really done well....Oh I can nit pick it, like for example.
There were three wise men in the movie. In reality, they were maji and maji travled together by the hundreds and they did not see Jesus until he was about two years old.....

For the most part It was a good movie... Catholics may not like it because I counted 3 sins that were commited by Mary, but ''oh well''... :wink:

But as far as the scenery and jewish customs, etc it was pretty good....

 

[Vic C.]

Yes, J... I took my dad to see it last weekend. I enjoyed it, though I don't know if I agree with using the convergence of planets and stars to explain the Star of Bethlehem. The Bible looks down at astrology, you know, which is why I don't agree with the "findings" of Ernest Martin. :-?

LOL, they used the sand dunes of the Saraha Desert in Morocco for the scenes of the Maji traveling to Bethlehem. There's no sand dunes that large between where they were coming from and Bethlehem. The number of Maji comes from the number of gifts which were presented to baby Jesus. All we know is there were more than one, since Maji is plural. ...and yes, they did arrive sometime after the birth, though we don't for sure if it was two months or two years.

That's an interesting theory, but the Chronology would have to be cleaned up significantly for us to make too big an assumption that it took place during the Sukkot.

As for the Greek word for "tabernacled", it is Skenoo from the Hebrew cognates SKN, which often spoke of God's dwelling presence in the wilderness Tabernacle and the Temple. We get our word Shekinah from this, so I think is was more a statement of God's indwelling presence rather than an emphasis on a physical dwelling place.

Hi shark... your second paragraph first. Thanks, though I knew of the Greek and it's definition. Funny how the NT aligns itself so well with so much of the OT. It would be most proper for Jesus to be born this time of the year, as it was proper that He be crucified around Passover. He was born to dwell with us, just as He died to take away the sins of the world. It would also be most proper for John the Baptist to be born around Passover. I'll get to that in a moment.

You are probably aware of what The Feast of Tabernacles is all about, but for those who don't:

excerpt from http://biblicalholidays.com/tabernacles.htm

The word Sukkoth means “booths,†and refers to the temporary dwellings that Jews are commanded to live in during this holiday, just as the Jews did in the wilderness.

Now for the chronology of the first two chapters of Luke. First, lets look at 1 Chronicles 24, particularly verse 24:10

10-The seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah

David seperated the priesthood into 24 weekly periods. Each division was to tend to the Temple for one week. During Passover and Schavuot, all 24 were required to tend to Temple duties.

In Luke we read:

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia (Abijah): and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

That would require Zacharias to be at the Temple the third week of Nisan, which is Passover and during the eighth period, because he was from the line of Abijah. That would put him there the first week of Sivan. BTW, they started counting weeks and months starting with the first week of Nisan.

The second week of Sivan was Schavuot (Pentecost), so he was required to stay an additional week. That means he couldn't go home to his wife until after Schavuot (the 10th. week). One more thing to consider... Niddah, the period of seperation. This could be a period of 12-14 days. Like I said, we need to consider the possibility, since we don't know for sure.

Let's say that puts us at the fourth week of Sivan, where conception of John the Baptist occurred. We can now count nine months from there and find us at the last week of Adar or the first week of Nisan. Very soon afterwards would be... Pasover!

Zacharias says this in Luke:

Luke 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

He is speaking of not just John, but of Elijah. Some believe John was Elijah incarnate. Jesus even alludes to this. Zacharias is echoing the words of Malachi. The Jews even save a place for Elijah at the Passover Seder.

We know from Luke that Mary conceived at the time Elisabeth was six months with child and went to visit Elisabeth. Luke 1:26-36 That pus us at about the end of Kislev or the beginning of Tevet. We can now count nine months from here and arrive at late Elul or early Tishri, which is our Sept./Oct., which is when The Feast of Tabernacles would be some 2,000 years ago.

Sorry this was so long. : But if that didn't make sense, see this:
http://www.luziusschneider.com/Papers/J ... .htm#_ftn1

 

[Atonement]

I will be moving over the next couple of days, so until I have the time and can get back to deal with the violators on this thread, I am locking the thread. ONLY TEMP...

Be be back on shortly:
-Atone

Off Topic: Gabby I wanted to apologize for not restarting this thread as promised. Through the hassle of moving. I completely forgot about this thread until Vic asked me if he could re-open it. For that Gabby I am sorry. Forgive me?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Off Topic: Gabby I wanted to apologize for not restarting this thread as promised. Through the hassle of moving. I completely forgot about this thread until Vic asked me if he could re-open it. For that Gabby I am sorry. Forgive me?

Of course you are forgiven brother. I should have reminded you. You have had a lot on your mind lately.

 

[jgredline]

Vic
The astrology part was wrong indeed...As far as the whole deal on the Maji, go its been many years since I looked into it. But as I recall, and It would be worth it to go back and cjeck this out, at about the time the maji paid a visit to herod, it was pretty close to the time when Herod murderd all the kids 2 years and younger as I recall and that indeed from the ''time'' the star showed up , they really left shortly after that...hMMM, AS i am rembering this, the trip from persia also took over a year of travel....Josephas also mentioned this event...
Hmmm, I better go look this stuff up before I get lynched :-D for speaking something that may not be completely accurate. :-D

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Vic
The astrology part was wrong indeed...
...Hmmm, I better go look this stuff up before I get lynched :-D for speaking something that may not be completely accurate. :-D

Howdy jg,

As long as you are doing the research on the star, I would like to point something out. The magi followed the star back. They were moving east to west. If you were to follow a star these days, you would also move in that direction.

However, once the star got to Jerusalem, they followed it from Jerusalem to Bethlehem. North to south. The star moved from east to west, hung a left, and went five miles south.

I just thought that might interest you.

 

[Vic C.]

J, you could be correct. It's either that or Herod wasn't taking any chances and gave himself some leeway.

Gabby, planets moving in the sky do exhibit that sort of behavior. They appear to move in the sky, reach their "destination", then appear to move in the opposite direction. It has more to do with the earth moving about it's orbit around the sun than anything else.

Matthew's account gines the impression that this star is more of a supernatural event than it is a natural phenomenon. God appeared to Moses as a bright, blinding burning bush. During the transfiguration, Jesus' face shined like the sun. Jesus appeared to Saul, as he was on his way to Damascus, as a light from heaven.

So it's highly possible it was a supernatural event. Maybe it was an angel of the Lord, or maybe it was the LORD Himself.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I have always believed it to be an angel. I did a word study once (I don't have it handy at the moment) that backs up that belief.

 

[jgredline]

Matthew's account gines the impression that this star is more of a supernatural event than it is a natural phenomenon. God appeared to Moses as a bright, blinding burning bush. During the transfiguration, Jesus' face shined like the sun. Jesus appeared to Saul, as he was on his way to Damascus, as a light from heaven.

So it's highly possible it was a supernatural event. Maybe it was an angel of the Lord, or maybe it was the LORD Himself.

Yes, I know this part to be correct. The way the Greek reads as I recall, is that the Star and light from the star stood still while all the other stars did not.

hmmm, now I am going to have to read up this...

 

[Vic C.]

Try these for starters...

http://www.probe.org/content/view/881/91/

http://www.ibri.org/Papers/StarofBethle ... hlehem.htm - the first part of this site is astronomical and astrological, the second part is supernatural

Ugh, shark is going to be mad we sidetracked the topic. :

 

[cyberjosh]

Ugh, shark is going to be mad we sidetracked the topic.

Nah, its cool as long as we reach a conclusion to this matter and don't debate endlessly on the star issue.

My 2-cents on the issue: I Honestly don't see why it couldn't have been an astrological occurance, or atleast have the appearance of one. I acknowledge the Supernatural element because the star first appeared (presumably) around when Jesus was born and then reappeared when the Magi finally got there (A year or so later). However the reason that the Magi knew about it and traveled so far is probably because in their routine viewing of astrological occurances (which they did for a living) they would have consulted various texts to attempt to discern the future or prophecies being fulfilled from what they saw in the night sky. In the Jew's time in exile in both Babylon and Persia they may have left some of thier texts behind in those regions, not to mention not all the Jews went back, some stayed scattered about. The Magi may have run accross an occurance that coincided with a prophecy that the "Star" they saw indicated the birth of the "King of the Jews". This only makes sense as to how they came to know about it. And if I may say so, God has used in the past natural occurances to supernatural proportions. Jesus' walking on water was absolute buyancy. The nine plagues (exempting the death of the first born) of Egypt are supposedly exponential occuraces of natural occurances (although the blood one is debatable). The prophecy in Joel of the moon being turned to blood is in keeping with the reddish hue (which I have seen myself) of the moon during a Lunar Eclipse (check this out).

At any rate my point is God could have used a supposedly "happen stance" astrolocigal occurance of planets aligning or it could have even been a meteor or comet, and not necessarily and artificial light source purely supernatural in origin, though the occurance was clearily supernaturaly guided in time and appearance.

 

[Vic C.]

Nah, its cool as long as we reach a conclusion to this matter and don't debate endlessly on the star issue....

I fully agree, so I will just point out the verses that seem to be against astrology, which were brought to my attention:

Isaiah 47:13-15

Daniel 1:20 , Daniel 2:27 , Daniel 4:7 , Daniel 5:7

and probably the most compelling of all:

Jeremiah 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.


To get back on topic, I choose to believe He was born in the lower portion of a home, around late September/early October.

 

[cyberjosh]

I fully agree, so I will just point out the verses that seem to be against astrology, which were brought to my attention: Isaiah 47:13-15

Daniel 1:20 , Daniel 2:27 , Daniel 4:7 , Daniel 5:7

and probably the most compelling of all:

Jeremiah 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

Well you seem to be missing the point. One way or another the Magi were interested in astrology, and in doing so came across a sign that told them of a King of the Jews arising. Also the condemnations in the Bible against astrologers were those godless conjuring magicians who spewed forth false knowledge. God gave the stars and the sun and moon, "for signs and for seasons and for days and years" (Genesis 1:14).

Also it is possible that the prophecy that the Magi based their astrological reading on was Numbers 24:17 which says, "I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not near;
A star shall come forth from Jacob,
A scepter shall rise from Israel,
And shall crush through the forehead of Moab,
And tear down all the sons of Sheth. "

To get back on topic, I choose to believe He was born in the lower portion of a home, around late September/early October.

I don't think you'll ever fully convince me that you have a date pin-pointed for Jesus' birth but I'm ok with your belief. For the record though I've heard that some Scholars attributed his birth date to around the spring. I haven't looked much into it though.


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

... I don't think you'll ever fully convince me that you have a date pin-pointed for Jesus' birth but I'm ok with your belief. For the record though I've heard that some Scholars attributed his birth date to around the spring. I haven't looked much into it though.

God Bless,

~Josh

No problem at all. I wasn't really trying to convince anyone anyways. Just passing on some information I've learned about that I agree with.

I've heard the springtime theories too, but they don't make much sense to me. It places Jesus' birthday around Passover and John the Baptist's birthday around the fall feasts. John (Elijah, Matthew 11:10-14), as the forerunner to Jesus (Messiah), makes more sense that he be born at Pasover time. It also makes more sense that Jesus be born somewhere around Yom Kippur/Feast of Tabernacles.

Yom Kipper, day of atonement - Jesus, our atonement.

Feast of Tabernacles, the most joyful of all the Jewish Holy Days and called the "Season of our Rejoicing" - Jesus' birth is why we rejoice, our Joy to the World. (we all know the rest of the words )

Just pray that God would reveal to you the importance of these Holy Days and events and their relation to men and events to come in the NT. The Old Testament is Christ is concealed. In the New Testament Christ is revealed.

Once again, sorry to sidetrack your thread.

 

[cyberjosh]

John (Elijah, Matthew 11:10-14), as the forerunner to Jesus (Messiah), makes more sense that he be born at Pasover time.

Hmm... Why is that? Something with the OT prophecies about Elijah coming back?

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

Oh my goodness... lol, this was our Christmas thread. I forgot all about it.

Answer: yes. Just as they didn't expect Messiah to be "born" among them, they didn't expect Elijah to come into the world any other way than the way he left. He came as a newborn and I'm convinced he was born about the time of Passover.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. (ref. Malachi 4:4-6)

Still to this day, they set a place for him at their Passover Seder. There is a strong Messianic connection to the Seder.

The cup of wine drawn for Elijah is called Kos shel Eliyahu ha-Navi.

13. Barekh: Grace after Meals
The third cup of wine is poured, and birkat ha-mazon (grace after meals) is recited. This is similar to the grace that would be said on any Shabbat. At the end, a blessing is said over the third cup and it is drunk. The fourth cup is poured, including a cup set aside for the prophet Elijah, who is supposed to herald the Messiah, and is supposed to come on Pesach to do this. The door is opened for a while at this point (supposedly for Elijah, but historically because Jews were accused of nonsense like putting the blood of Christian babies in matzah, and we wanted to show our Christian neighbors that we weren't doing anything unseemly).

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm

This is interesting:

15. Nirtzah: Closing
A simple statement that the seder has been completed, with a wish that next year, we may celebrate Pesach in Jerusalem (i.e., that the Messiah will come within the next year). This is followed by various hymns and stories.

So, if the calculations of their births are correct, Messiah did indeed come within a year. He just didn't come as a full-grown Messiah. :-D

This is interesting also:

http://www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/elijah.htm

Peace,
Vic