Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant

[Tradidi]

Mary gave birth to the flesh and blood body of Jesus Christ.

I know you understand this.

To say that Mary is the Mother of God is to imply that God the Son had His beginning with Mary.

Mary gave birth to a flesh and blood human being, made up of organs and blood and bone.

The uncreated Son of God BECAME flesh, in Mary’s womb.


JLB

Here's a simple analogy. When your mother conceived you and bore you in her womb, she gave you your flesh, but God created your soul and joined it to your flesh. Now that you are born, you do not say "she is the mother of my flesh" or "she is the mother of my nature", but rather, "she is my mother, she is the mother of me".

So it is with Mary, she is the Mother of the person that was born of her, which is Jesus, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity.

 

[Tradidi]

The Ark is a type of Christ.

The tabernacle and it’s contents were types of Christ.

The contents of the Ark were types of Christ that the people rejected.

Nothing to do with Mary.

So you are willing to brush all parallels in Luke's gospel aside as coincidence, even the parallel between Luke 1:43 and 2 Samuel 6:9, and John's vision of the woman in Revelation 12:1?

Remember what you said in the thread about Discussing the teachings of Catholicism vs Scripture? You said: "So let’s agree to post scripture and not man’s interpretation or commentary." I wanted to reply to that at the time, but I knew it would be better to wait until a time like this to point out the impossibility of what you are saying.

EVERYONE looks at Scripture through biased glasses, and even if we limit ourselves to simply quoting Scripture without any words of our own, just give book, chapter and verse, even then we show our bias in the selection of Scriptures we bring up to answer a specific question or argument. In other words, even quoting Scripture shows our bias or interpretation. And many people will still interpret the Scriptures you bring up the way they like to interpret them.

So, at the end of the day, you are free to dismiss my interpretation, just as I am free to dismiss your interpretation. The fact is, that we both can have a different interpretation of Scripture, whatever our underlying motives or qualifications may be. Interpretation of Scripture is at the root of ALL disagreements between Christians, and at the same time, at the root of ALL heresy, and at the root of MANY Christians that end up in hell.

This also highlights the fundamental flaw of Sola Scriptura. We cannot isolate Scripture from our interpretation of Scripture. It is impossible. And thus, Sola Scriptura is unfit to be our Rule of Faith. We need something or someone outside of Scripture that can correctly interpret Scripture for us, something or someone that has God's authority to do so, and God's promise of infallibility. Neither you nor I received this authority and guarantee.

And please don't tell me that the Holy Spirit will guide us, as then reality would tell us that the Holy Spirit is a liar and a deceiver, guiding all of us in a different direction and to a different truth. That would be blasphemy. The truth is One, and God can neither deceive nor be deceived.

So, if you wish to reject my interpretation, ok, you are free to do so. But I reject your interpretation. And the purpose of this thread was to show that Catholic doctrine is based on Scripture, whether you accept or reject the Catholic interpretation of Scripture, the fact remains: Catholic doctrine is based on Scripture, just as you claim your doctrine is based on Scripture.

 

[JLB]

Here's a simple analogy. When your mother conceived you and bore you in her womb, she gave you your flesh, but God created your soul and joined it to your flesh. Now that you are born, you do not say "she is the mother of my flesh" or "she is the mother of my nature", but rather, "she is my mother, she is the mother of me".

So it is with Mary, she is the Mother of the person that was born of her, which is Jesus, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity.

Jesus became flesh. He is the Lord God, who became flesh.


Mary did not give birth to the Spirit of Christ.

Flesh can not give birth to Spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


I need to know you understand this basic concept.




JLB

 

[Tradidi]

Jesus became flesh. He is the Lord God, who became flesh.

Indeed, He became flesh in Mary's womb.

Mary did not give birth to the Spirit of Christ.

She did not create the Spirit of Christ, just like your mother did not create your soul. But She did give birth to the person of Jesus, who at that time had both spirit and flesh, soul and body, divine and human nature.

Flesh can not give birth to Spirit.

Have you ever heard the saying "to separate body and soul"? When we die, that's when our body and soul separate. But until then, the two are one and form one living being, a person. But notice also this, when we are separated from our body, we live on as a person without a body, but are body becomes dead. In other words, our soul is the essential part of our person, not our body. You simply cannot separate the body and the soul of Christ when He was born of the Virgin Mary. If you do so you would end up with a dead body!

When a mother gives birth, she gives birth to a living being, a person who has both soul and body, spirit and flesh.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Jesus was talking about the life of grace, not about what happens when a woman gives birth.

I need to know you understand this basic concept.

I understand your basic errors and your motivation to cling to them: you want to disprove Catholic doctrine, so you search the Scriptures not for the truth but for an argument to use against the doctrines you do not wish to accept.

 

[JLB]

You are creating a straw man fallacy.

No sir, it’s no straw man it’s a simple straightforward question that arises directly from the exact words of Jesus.

When you start accusing people of purposely being deceitful when they are trying to establish integrity in a doctrinal discussion, so we can be in agreement and therefore have a meaningful discussion from the scriptures and not the teachings of man, then you are creating division and strife.


This is the last time I will ask you, and if you don’t answer in a straightforward way, then this thread will be ended.


Im trying to find out if you are comprehending the basics words of scripture.

Very simple.

Here is what Jesus said. Words of Christ in red.

And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Luke 11:27-28


“More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”



Do you believe those who hear the word of God and do it, are blessed or cursed?



JLB

 

[Tradidi]

Do you believe those who hear the word of God and do it, are blessed or cursed?

I'm embarrassed that you force me to answer such a trivial question, but here we go:

I believe that those who hear the word of God and keep it are blessed.

 

[JLB]

I'm embarrassed that you force me to answer such a trivial question, but here we go:

I believe that those who hear the word of God and keep it are blessed.

It’s embarrassing you would try and attack me because you didn’t want to answer a simple question.


The point is Jesus said those who hear God’s word and obey it, are blessed more that the breasts who feed a Him, which refers to His mother, which is Mary.


This is what you should be promoting among other Catholics, to obey God so you will be blessed more than Mary.



JLB

 

[Tradidi]

This is what you should be promoting among other Catholics, to obey God so you will be blessed more than Mary.

No, no, no, no and no. You are jumping over a fallacy called begging the question.

I explained this, but you decided to just ignore it because you didn't like the conclusion. What Jesus is saying is that those who keep the word of God are more blessed than those who are merely a mother of someone great. Motherhood is good, but keeping the word of God is much better. Even better still, do both. Jesus is NOT saying that those who keep the word of God are greater than Mary. He is not comparing "keeping the word of God" with "Mary", but "keeping the word of God" with "motherhood of someone great".

To say "to obey God so you will be blessed more than Mary" would imply that Mary did not obey God, and that is completely unscriptural and blasphemous.

Is this so hard to understand?

 

[Tradidi]

It’s embarrassing you would try and attack me because you didn’t want to answer a simple question.

And by the way, I am not attacking you. I am explaining why you are wrong, absolutely wrong.

 

[JLB]

I explained this, but you decided to just ignore it because you didn't like the conclusion. What Jesus is saying is that those who keep the word of God are more blessed than those who are merely a mother of someone great.

Sorry brother but Jesus doesn’t say any such nonsense.

And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Luke 11:27-28


“More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”


More than Mary, the woman who was the Mother of Jesus Christ, blessed are those who hear and obey God.



I don’t know why, but I had hoped this would be different. That you being a Christian might have some real integrity concerning God’s word, more so than most of the Catholics I have discussed the scriptures with.


I guess I was wrong.


JLB

 

[JLB]

And by the way, I am not attacking you. I am explaining why you are wrong, absolutely wrong.

I just showed from the scriptures where you added your own words to replace the words of Christ.

More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”


This is a direct reference to Mary, the woman who nursed Jesus Christ as a child.


Not “someone great”



JLB

 

[JLB]

Mary had other children after Jesus, of which James was one of them.


Again Jesus emphasizes who is esteemed in the kingdom of God.



While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46-50

• Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

JLB

 

[Tradidi]

Sorry brother but Jesus doesn’t say any such nonsense.

When was the last time you referred to your mother as "the womb that bore you, and the breasts which nursed you"? The woman in the crowd probably didn't even know Mary. But she did figure out that Jesus must have had a mother, whoever she may be, and she thought that that mother must be really blessed to have a son like that. But it has absolutely nothing to do with Mary, other than the fact that Mary happened to be the one that was Jesus' mother. You're simply forcing your own made up theology into Scripture, rather than letting Scripture teach you. And that's a rather common occurrence on this forum I noticed.

That you being a Christian might have some real integrity concerning God’s word, more so than most of the Catholics I have discussed the scriptures with.

So those who agree with you have integrity and those who disagree with you and explain why, they have no integrity? I see.

To finish off, let me ask you a one simple question, and then you can have the last word.

Do you believe that you have obeyed God more than Mary?

I suggest you think very hard about this simple question, and the implications of your answer, because one day, when you will be standing before the judgement seat of God, He will ask this very same question of you. And you won't be pulling the wool over His eyes, believe me!

Mary had other children after Jesus, of which James was one of them.

This topic was next on my list, as your statement is completely wrong again. Even some of the more honest Protestant theologians have admitted and even proven this beyond a shadow of doubt. But I don't think I will bother throwing any more pearls onto this forum. I am disappointed that you, as a mod, question my integrity, just because you don't like my arguments and the conclusion they prove.

Please proceed to delete my account. I do not wish to be a stumbling block to you.

 

[JLB]

When was the last time you referred to your mother as "the womb that bore you, and the breasts which nursed you"? The woman in the crowd probably didn't even know Mary. But she did figure out that Jesus must have had a mother, whoever she may be, and she thought that that mother must be really blessed to have a son like that. But it has absolutely nothing to do with Mary, other than the fact that Mary happened to be the one that was Jesus' mother. You're simply forcing your own made up theology into Scripture, rather than letting Scripture teach you. And that's a rather common occurrence on this forum I noticed.

Jesus on the other hand knew exactly who His mother was, and made this remarkable statement.


My point is, why aren't you promoting obedience to God among your Catholic brethren, instead of praying to Msry, which is total disobedience to God, and is called necromancy. A form of sorcery.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I am pleased you brought up this argument, as it is at the root of the heresy of Nestorianism. Nestorius claimed that there are two persons in Jesus, one divine person with a divine nature and one human person with a human nature.

When you say that "Mary gave birth to the man Jesus", you are denying either that Jesus was one person with two natures, or that the one person of Jesus was born without a divine nature.

Just think about it. Was Jesus God when He was 30 years old? Was He God when He was 6 months old? Was He God when He was in Mary's womb? Then who did Mary give birth to, the man Jesus or the divine Son of God?

Hi,


I find that she is called the Mother of the Son of God...or the Mother of Jesus.

I'm referring to the CCC
Paragraphs 485 and onward.
In no. 495 she is called Theotokos, which is also what the Orthodox church calls her.

I believe there is a sense in which Mary could be called the Mother of God since Jesus was God.
What bothers me about this is that the Father is referred to as the BEING of God. The being of God has no beginning and was not born.

The PERSONS are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Jesus is a PERSON of the BEING of God.

Jesus, as the 2nd person of the Trinity was born into humanity as the Son of God.
When we refer to Mary as the Mother of God it sounds as if God was borne of Mary...
the BEING was borne of Mary and instead the being of God has always existed.

How do we come up with this title from scripture??

 

[stovebolts]

“More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

When I read these words in Luke's account, I am reminded what Luke also wrote in Luke 2:19 as Mary heard the words of Jesus, and kept them as treasures.
If we go back to Luke 1:38, Mary had a choice. She heard the word of the Lord, and she kept it, even though she risked being stoned.

For me, when I read Jesus reply in Luke 11, we cannot dismiss Mary. Matthews account is also very similar in this same way.

Where it gets dangerous IMHO is when we take away from Mary what is due to Mary.

That being said, I do not believe we are to pray to Mary, but I do believe she, like others in Scripture are elevated.

I see myself as less than Moses, less than David, less than John the Baptist and certainly less than Mary.

.02

 

[JLB]

When I read these words in Luke's account, I am reminded what Luke also wrote in Luke 2:19 as Mary heard the words of Jesus, and kept them as treasures.
If we go back to Luke 1:38, Mary had a choice. She heard the word of the Lord, and she kept it, even though she risked being stoned.

For me, when I read Jesus reply in Luke 11, we cannot dismiss Mary. Matthews account is also very similar in this same way.

Where it gets dangerous IMHO is when we take away from Mary what is due to Mary.

That being said, I do not believe we are to pray to Mary, but I do believe she, like others in Scripture are elevated.

I see myself as less than Moses, less than David, less than John the Baptist and certainly less than Mary.

.02

Yes I agree.

We don’t want to diminish what the scriptures say about those that God has blessed and honored, because they were faithful and obedient.


This reminds me of what a Jesus said about John the Baptist and he that is least in the kingdom of God. Some have grossly misunderstood what Jesus was saying, even to the point of disrespecting John the Baptist as not being a part of God’s Kingdom.





JLB

 

[stovebolts]

This reminds me of what a Jesus said about John the Baptist and he that is least in the kingdom of God. Some have grossly misunderstood what Jesus was saying, even to the point of disrespecting John the Baptist as not being a part of God’s Kingdom.

I had never heard of that, but it doesn't surprise me.
I do believe that our Catholic brother brings some good theology in this thread. I especially enjoyed reading his dissertation on types and his redacted passages. Although we may not agree on how their theology super elevates Mary, I think there is much we can say is good.

 

[JLB]

I had never heard of that, but it doesn't surprise me.
I do believe that our Catholic brother brings some good theology in this thread. I especially enjoyed reading his dissertation on types and his redacted passages. Although we may not agree on how their theology super elevates Mary, I think there is much we can say is good.

I see this in him and hoped to see some of his perspectives in this thread, which is why I went out on a limb, and started this thread specifically for him, hoping that he would back up his claims with scripture, and not private interpretation passed of as the word of God.

We can not tolerate the promoting of communicating with the dead, whether Mary, or others saints, being passed off as some superior revelation from God.


We love Catholic people just as we love all God’s people.


This doesn’t mean we have to accept all the teachings of Catholicism.


He is welcome to continue here with his teachings of Catholic doctrine.


He just needs to know where we stand on certain doctrines that are essential to our salvation.


Maybe you could pick up the discussion with him, and I will step aside and see what you guys come up with.


Should be interesting. Tradidi




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

This doesn’t mean we have to accept all the teachings of Catholicism.

I agree.