Bible Study Matthew 23

[Henry]

Matthew 23 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



Matthew 23

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'


8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.


Today we use the word "pastor" though we use a different word this passage seems to apply very well, and I would bet Jesus would say today

Call no man pastor for you have one pastor the Christ.

 

[Bick]

Well Henry, I disagree.

The apostle Paul, chosen to be the apostle and teacher to the nations, tells us in Eph. 4:11ff, that after ascending, Christ "gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ."

Bick

 

[gingercat]

Bick,

Why did Jesus say those things? thanks :D

Matthew 23

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'


8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

 

[ChristineES]

The word pastor means shepherd. After Jesus rose again he asked Peter 3 times if he loved Him more than the others, and when Peter said yes, Jesus told him to "take care of His sheep" and "Feed His lambs". Isn't that what a shepherd or pastor does? Just curious.

 

[sehad]

Bick,
Why did Jesus say those things? thanks :D

Here is my belief on that. Has there ever been anything that happened on your job(whatever your profession might be), that you did not know how to handle it? What did you do? I'd bet that you went to someone that had more experience and more expertise in that area for advice. Have you ever overheard someone talking about something that they tried or did that made a certain area of their job easier? That is what a pastor is. He is set up to be an advisor and a leader of "sheep". So are you supposed to just take for granted that the Pastor knows what he's talking about? Of corse not. I mean, there are pastors that claim to be in GOD's will but are after their own(as were the Pharisees). What Jesus is saying in this scripture is that there is only ONE authority, that is GOD. The pastor's job is to point you in the direction that GOD wants. It is your job to determine if it actually of GOD. Because if you follow a pastor's teachings and it is wrong, then just tough luck for you. The pastor is taught by GOD as are each of us. Just because he is a pastor doesn't make him a deity, which is really what the Pharisees were after, and why Jesus rebuked them. A pastor is supposed to be more in touch with GOD as is his job. But anything that a pastor says that goes against GOD, well pastor is wrong. A pastor should study more, read more, pray more, seek GOD's interpretation of scripture more so that they may then show us what GOD means. Once we hear from the pastor what GOD means or wants, we should then "try" this out and see if it is what GOD actually wants. When my pastor says something or preaches something that causes me to be convicted over something, I do not pray to the pastor. I pray to GOD, but because of the words of the pastor I realized that I needed to straighten up something that otherwise I would not have. Do you get what I mean?

 

[Henry]

Bick

Well Henry, I disagree.

The apostle Paul, chosen to be the apostle and teacher to the nations

Jesus still said Call no man "teacher" you have to justify donig so up against what he said.

Being a teacher is one thing, bearing a title or office as TEACHER is quite another.

 

[Henry]

What Jesus is saying in this scripture is that there is only ONE authority, that is GOD.

While he is saying that God alone is the final authority, he is still saying call no man 'Rabbi,' ‘Father,’ or ‘teacher’ which at that time and today where all religious titles.

A pastor is supposed to be more in touch with GOD as is his job

Absolutely NOT !!!! Every man is to be accountable to God himself it is not any one man’s JOB over another to be ‘in touch’ with God. This is an illustration of the problem of the modern pastorate, lets not call him a priest but hey he is PAID to be the one in touch with God.

Can’t you see the problem with this?

Why do you call a man “My Pastor†after reading the words of Jesus? He says you have one master, and one father and one teacher.

Let me put this in modern terms:

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The pastors of the institutional churches sit in the priest old' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their uites finely tailored and there shoes freshly shined; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the church buildings; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them Pastor, Reverend, Bishop, Deacon, Elder, Apostle, Evengelist.

8"But you are not to be called 'Pastor,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

 

[Skipdawg]

The message Jesus give us there is for us not to place our own self on a high pedestal. Not to make our self someone important.

We are to be both master and servant, teacher and student. We are to be humble and set the example Jesus gave unto us all.

We are to be these things and live it. Teacher, Pastor, Evangelist and so forth not make our self one by name or roll.

These gifts are of God and not to be abuse by mankind.

 

[Henry]

Skipdawg

Yes and even more so not to make others in title or role by giving them that title and role. While a man may be able to teach me, I must be careful not to give him the title of teacher, it is really Jesus teaching me through him and even teaching him as well.

I do think that Jesus does not want us giving each other titles at all. I do think it is unbiblical to calls someone pastor, or what ever.

 

[Skipdawg]

Well Henry you have that right. But with 25+ years in the Ministry I beg to differ is all. :wink:

 

[Henry]

I am also in "ministry" so what? I thought this was a bible study forum, aren't we here to examine the scriptures?

Jesus said what he said, lets study the word and and undertand what he meant.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+


Why is it that St. Paul calls himself a father?

 

[sehad]

Henry, please tell me if I'm right here. You believe that there should be pastors and teachers, but should not be called pastors and teachers? From what I'm getting you believe that these do exist, however that they should not set themselves up as what they are so to speak. Please just consider my thinking before you cut me off here. All of the following scriptures take place AFTER Jesus was taken up from the Earth.

Acts 13:1
Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11 & 12
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

The HE is talking about Christ.

Yet you are saying that we should call no man teacher or pastor, but GOD calls them that himself. How can this be? The only way the bible stands if there is no contradiction. Jesus says call no man teacher, yet sets up teachers himself(Ephesians 4 above). Therefore, the bible is false or there is no contradiction there. Which is it? Being a Christian(as I'm sure you are), there has to be no contradiction. So what is being said in Matthew 23?

Well, lets look at the situation. Jesus was describing the scribes and the Pharisees. How they were called Rabbi or master and did it as a lofty position, but lets look at 1 Corinthians 3:4 - 11

4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Two different men ministered or pastored them and they were in division of who they should follow. Paul rebukes them and says that NO ONE can build a foundation but GOD, therefore both had to be of GOD and not trying to stand on their own. In other words, not trying to take credit for what GOD taught them.

Now lets look at Luke 22:26 & 27

26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

27For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

Jesus is saying the purpose of a pastor is NOT to be exaulted above the congregation. On the contrary, he is to be a SERVANT to the congregation and shepherd to the flock feeding and showing the flock the way but NEVER to be above the flock.

As you can see from the scriptures above, GOD sets up the ministers, teachers, pastors, etc. not man. And the intended biblical purpose of these are to edify the church and to lead the church but at the same time to be servants to the church. Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees in Matthew 23 and warning everyone around not to set such people up in lofty positions, but to realize who and what they are. They are appointed by GOD as servants to the congregation, not as one that is above the congregation as the Pharisees were doing.

Absolutely NOT !!!! Every man is to be accountable to God himself it is not any one man’s JOB over another to be ‘in touch’ with God. This is an illustration of the problem of the modern pastorate, lets not call him a priest but hey he is PAID to be the one in touch with God.

I did not mean that this was is fulltime paying job, what I meant was that this was his "job(duty)" that was set forth by GOD. Some pastors to go to the fulltime pastoral duty if the church can support that but I do know of pastors that have a full time job as well as pastoring the church.

 

[Henry]

Fulton Sheen's Warrior

To answer your question, first we can not get away from the fact that Jesus said not to use religious titles. No place was Paul called “Father†as a title, he used the word as a function he played in someone’s life.

For example I would not like to be called “Pastor Henry†and I ever struggle with “Chaplain Henryâ€Â. However there are times when I have been a pastor to someone in my relationship to them at that time, so certainly I was a pastor but not in religious title.

1 peter 5: 1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseersâ€â€

You see these are functions of a leader, and notice that elder is not even a title, it is also merely a descriptive and the elder (or the mature ones) they are to BE PASTORS and SERVE AS OVERSEERS, but keep in mind Jesus already instructed us not to give one another religious titles.


sehad

You believe that there should be pastors and teachers, but should not be called pastors and teachers?

Oh certainly there should be, I believe that ever gift to the church is still active and thriving perhaps even more then in those days. (eph 4:11)

The problem as I said above is making those gifts into offices and in doing so setting up a special class of CLERGY Christians.

1 peter 5: 1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder


Ever notice that the letters are written to the brethren, and even the so called “pastoral epistles†never actually make refrence to a pastor by title.

In 1 Peter there is no mention of leaders until this chapter and even still he is talking to the brethren as a whole, see how it is worded. “to the elders AMONG you†the elders where not a clergical class, they where simply mature brothers. AMONG is very important, because when we give titles and offices out they are no longer among but separate from.

You know as well as I do in seminary we taught that as clergy we have a “special†call of God and are to live up to that call as examples to the rest of the body.

Well, that is true…but it is true of EVERY Christian there is no such thing as Clergy and Laity in the bible, just the brothers and sisters in the Lord.

There is a difference in talking about the work we have been given to do for that time, as you know it can change, and giving someone a title and an office and calling him THE teacher, or THE pastor.

Notice that not one time when any of these functions are mentioned are ever used in title form.

Jesus is saying the purpose of a pastor is NOT to be exaulted above the congregation.

Oh you mean like being charged with the burden of praying and coming up with a weekly sermon every week, week after week and being expected to also do all the other work of the church, while the laity sit back in the pews and enjoy the show?

Sorry, but the building based pastor led church system does exault the pastor in many ways.

Truly the only difference between a pastor and catholic priest is the way they dress.

I do know of pastors that have a full time job as well as pastoring the church.

Pastoring? You see how you have made this into an office and not a function, why is anyone given the charge to pastor a church. The fact is that all the men in the church should be leaders and lead by there maturity and wisdom as God has given them and never should any one man be THE pastor, paid or not. The Bible does not support anything like that.

So, yes certainly the church is gifted with apostles, evangelist, prophets, pastors and teachers. But these are fluid in a way, and flow from one to another as the spirit leads, and they are not titles or offices. Just functions of members of the body.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Fulton Sheen's Warrior

To answer your question, first we can not get away from the fact that Jesus said not to use religious titles.

Where does he say we should not use religious titles?

No place was Paul called “Father†as a title, he used the word as a function he played in someone’s life.

That's why I address my priest as 'Father'. I don't call him Father because "that's what your'e supposed to call a priest" I call him that because that's his function to me.

For example I would not like to be called “Pastor Henry†and I ever struggle with “Chaplain Henryâ€Â. However there are times when I have been a pastor to someone in my relationship to them at that time, so certainly I was a pastor but not in religious title.

So...then your'e saying that we can have roles as long as they don't come with titles?

1 peter 5: 1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseersâ€â€

Doesn't 'Priest' mean 'Elder'?
Doesn't 'Bishop' mean 'overseer'?

You see these are functions of a leader, and notice that elder is not even a title, it is also merely a descriptive and the elder (or the mature ones) they are to BE PASTORS and SERVE AS OVERSEERS, but keep in mind Jesus already instructed us not to give one another religious titles.

Deacon- Servant
Priest- Elder
Bishop- Overseer
Pope- Papa

These are functions not religious titles.







[/quote]

 

[Henry]

Fulton Sheen's Warrior

Where does he say we should not use religious titles?

Are you kidding? The scripture that started this thread does.

That's why I address my priest as 'Father'. I don't call him Father because "that's what your'e supposed to call a priest" I call him that because that's his function to me.

Your preist? Man that is another can of worms all together.

So...then your'e saying that we can have roles as long as they don't come with titles?

No, I am saying that these function or characteristics and not offices. A man can be a pastor one day becuase of what he is doing, the next he may be a teacher, and the next he be the student. ANY thing that creates a clergy status of Christian is unbiblical. Jesus "you are all brothers" all is all.

So, to have a man who is THE teacher or what ever, that is wrong. To have men who out of there nature at times teach, that is perfectly biblical. (or what ever)

Doesn't 'Priest' mean 'Elder'?
Doesn't 'Bishop' mean 'overseer'?

No to the first one, and yes to the second one. Elder means litterally an old man, in the scripture this refers to ANY man who is mature in the faith. He is not holding an office as an elder, he just is an elder. Like grampa is just grampa he does not have to been afforded the office of grandpa, by the nature of the family he just is.

1 peter 5: 1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseersâ€â€

Notice that he only refers to the elders, who are among the brothers, meaning they are also considered brothers. He tells them to BE and to SERVE as. These are not different offices they are merely different things that these guys did. The elder, pastor, overseer, are all interchangable terms for the same guy.

It could be said this way "we have an older man in our group who has known the Lord for a very long time(ELDER), he has such a carring heart for all us and shares his wisdom freely (BE SHEPHERDS). He is concerned about our welfare and keep his eyes open for dangers that may come into our lives (SERVING AS OVERSEERS).

You see these are things that man is doing, but not titles or offices he holds. Not any more then there is the office of Grandpa.

Deacon- Servant
Priest- Elder
Bishop- Overseer
Pope- Papa

These are functions not religious titles.

Sorry, but I work with church people and these are the things they want to be called and are on their business cards. The preist whos desk is just a few feet from my own, wants to be called Father and his business cards say Father, the Deacon I know who does a few things here and there for our catholic patients wants to be called Deacon, and so on.

It is very evident to anyone that these are titles used in the church. Jesus said not to use religous titles. You are arguing what Paul said, and not realizing what Jesus said. Whom do we follow?

Worst title of all time POPE !

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Are you kidding? The scripture that started this thread does.

It does? I didn't know Jesus said "I forbid you to use religious tiltles."
I beleive that our Lord was condemnig the use of religious titles when used to the same magnitude of Almighty God.

In Matthew 23, Christ is doing something that he does often in the Gospels:
He's condemning the actions of the Pharasees. The Pharasees, enjoy, "...salutations in the market places" and "..to be called Rabbi by men". The Pharasees, were being rebuked by Christ, for their belief that they were father-figures, a final authority, and teachers in their own right.

I believe that Christ was using hyperbole. He often uses this as tool throughout Scripture (eg Matthew 5:29).

No, I am saying that these function or characteristics and not offices. A man can be a pastor one day becuase of what he is doing, the next he may be a teacher, and the next he be the student. ANY thing that creates a clergy status of Christian is unbiblical. Jesus "you are all brothers" all is all.

Then why does Paul call the Bishopric an office (1 Timothy 3:1)?

So, to have a man who is THE teacher or what ever, that is wrong. To have men who out of there nature at times teach, that is perfectly biblical. (or what ever)

St. Paul says in Romans 1:1, that he was called to be an apostle set apart unto the gospel of God.

If he thought of himself as called to be an apostle some of the time, he would be failing in his vocation.

No to the first one, and yes to the second one. Elder means litterally an old man, in the scripture this refers to ANY man who is mature in the faith. He is not holding an office as an elder, he just is an elder. Like grampa is just grampa he does not have to been afforded the office of grandpa, by the nature of the family he just is.

Priest derives from the Greek 'presbuteros' which means elder.

Sorry, but I work with church people and these are the things they want to be called and are on their business cards. The preist whos desk is just a few feet from my own, wants to be called Father and his business cards say Father, the Deacon I know who does a few things here and there for our catholic patients wants to be called Deacon, and so on.

Is it wrong to address someone based on their function?

It is very evident to anyone that these are titles used in the church.

Deacon (Servant), Father (That's his function to me), Bishop (Overseer)

I address them as such, because it is their function.

Jesus said not to use religous titles.

He never made that claim.

You are arguing what Paul said, and not realizing what Jesus said. Whom do we follow?

Are you asking if I follow St. Paul or Jesus? I am going to have to say both.

Worst title of all time POPE !

Is 'Servant of the Servants of God', better?

 

[Henry]

You are defending something that has come out of men’s tradtions.

Jesus said not to do it, period and the NT plays that out because no one ever does.

Secondly, the titles you listed are not different people they are used interchangeably for the same guy or guys. A bishop was not one guy and the pastor another, and the elder yet another. These words where referring to things that the same guy DID.

Sorry, but religious titles is not biblical.


Oh, and the Pope is not a servant of anyone but himself. God did not call that man to anything. Sad just sad.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

You are defending something that has come out of men’s tradtions.

Their is nothing wrong with tradition as long as it is not opposed to Almighty God. Calling men by their function is not opposed to Scripture.

Jesus said not to do it, period and the NT plays that out because no one ever does.

Nobody is called a Bishop? Nobody is called an Priest (Elder)? No one is called a Deacon?

Secondly, the titles you listed are not different people they are used interchangeably for the same guy or guys.

Would you give me an example?

A bishop was not one guy and the pastor another, and the elder yet another. These words where referring to things that the same guy DID.

Deacon: I call men 'Deacon' (Servant) because that is who they are.

Priest: I call them 'Father' because that is their relationship to me.
Paul did it, why can't Priests?

Bishop: I call them Bishops (Overseer) because his function is to overssee his diocese.

Sorry, but religious titles is not biblical.

I have demonstrated to you that I do not call men by 'titles' but by their function and relationship to me.

Oh, and the Pope is not a servant of anyone but himself. God did not call
that man to anything. Sad just sad.

....Yeah...that John Paul was a real slacker. :roll:

 

[Henry]

1 thess 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter

This verse says some rather important things. One, it is addressed to BROTHERS as are all the letters, not the leaders, not the elders, not the pastor, but the brothers.

Think about that why didn't he write to the leaders? Why the brothers? Today a letter is written to the leaders and the regular folk may never know anything about it.

The reason is becuase they where all brothers, as Jesus said in mat 23. The leaders where among and part of the brethren and in no way over and above anyone else.

This verse is also used by Catholics to justify the authority of tradtions, the problem that what Paul was talking in the way of what he taught was not what the Catholic church looks to as the tradition.

Paul planted ONLY house churches, ane never built any kind of church building. One of the traditions he was talking about was the house church and what we are to do in a church meeting, we know this becuase of his teaching in 1 cor 14, and since Paul says here to keep doing what he taught and he taught house church meetings, then certianly what the Catholic Church is doing is not what Paul was talking about.

So, I agree we should hold to the teachings of the NT and follow the traditions of the apostles, which where small house churches led by elders who where example and not lords of the church, and to always eat a full meal as communion.