Misunderstand by Jws and Protestants

[miamited]

Hi journeyman

I don't really know what pieces of Scripture that JW's use to understand that Jesus is not God. For me, it would be Jesus' own words to Mary when he spoke with her at the tomb.

‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’

Another reasonably sound argument to me, is that I know that God cannot die.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman

I don't really know what pieces of Scripture that JW's use to understand that Jesus is not God. For me, it would be Jesus' own words to Mary when he spoke with her at the tomb.

‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

Hi miamited.
The Messiah came to teach sinners how we need to change. He didn't need to born again.

Another reasonably sound argument to me, is that I know that God cannot die.

God bless,
Ted

Exactly!

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of myFather.
Jn.10:17-18 KJV

He put the desires of the flesh to death instead of bringing judgement on us.

Our Lord God loved His enemies,

how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Lk.13:35 KJV

He wept with compassion over people who despised Him,

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied Isa.53:11

 

[miamited]

Hi journeyman

The Messiah came to teach sinners how we need to change. He didn't need to born again.

I'm not following how that fits into this discussion. No, Jesus didn't need to be born again. But I don't see that that's been mentioned.

I'm glad to see that we are in agreement that God cannot die. However, I believe that Scriptures are quite clear that Jesus did.

Now, I'm in complete agreement that Jesus represented the Father and His love and how He feels and understands us. Yes, for all intents and purposes, his nature was like his Father's. This is achieved by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Just as Jesus prayed that we would all come to be like him AS he is like the Father. God's word refers to Jesus, the Messiah, as being His servant. Jesus made the claim that the very words that he was speaking to people as he traveled around Israel were not his words but were given to him by his Father. So, there's a very real possibility that when Jesus replied to the pharisees with the famous retort "I AM!" That it was actually the words of God spoken to them through His servant.

I choose to follow the more clear understanding that God provides for us in the relationship between Him and His Son.

"This is my Son. In whom I am well pleased." Jesus is God's Son. They are all tied together and united by God's Spirit. It is a trinity of beings that operate as one to provide the salvation of our souls that we might spend eternity with God. Again, this is why I can understand that when Jesus said that we be one, just as he and the Father are one, that through the Spirit, we can be just like Jesus. Who God claims is the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD! We will all be born from the dead also. Just as God did for His Son, by raising him from the dead to life, He has given us proof through the resurrection of His Son that He can do what He has promised to do. Jesus is our example. As the Son of God, he has been raised from the dead, and over 500 people saw him alive, as proof to you and I and all who would believe and trust in Him and choose to follow His will for us in our lives... He will do the same for each of us.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman

I'm not following how that fits into this discussion. No, Jesus didn't need to be born again. But I don't see that that's been mentioned.

It's all that's being mentioned. You're not seeing it because God didn't need to beat Himself to forgive sinners. He needed to forgive sinners for heating Him. The exact opposite of Reformed, Jw, I think Catholic teaching. also.

I'm glad to see that we are in agreement that God cannot die. However, I believe that Scriptures are quite clear that Jesus did.

The death of His flesh was not the death of Himself. The flesh He was in was torn. His flesh is symbolic of the veil which separated the Holy of holies from the view of all the people (Heb.10:20.)

Now, I'm in complete agreement that Jesus represented the Father

Yes. In no honest way did Jesus ever represent sinners except to show us how we should live.
Very important to remember that whenever scripture refers to Jesus being seen as sin, sinful, a sinner, unclean, It's always liars seeing him that way. False witnesses.

and His love and how He feels and understands us. Yes, for all intents and purposes, his nature was like his Father's.

Then why are you disagreeing with me?

This is achieved by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Just as Jesus prayed that we would all come to be like him AS he is like the Father. God's word refers to Jesus, the Messiah, as being His servant. Jesus made the claim that the very words that he was speaking to people as he traveled around Israel were not his words but were given to him by his Father. So, there's a very real possibility that when Jesus replied to the pharisees with the famous retort "I AM!" That it was actually the words of God spoken to them through His servant.

I choose to follow the more clear understanding that God provides for us in the relationship between Him and His Son.

"This is my Son. In whom I am well pleased." Jesus is God's Son. They are all tied together
and united by God's Spirit. It is a trinity of beings that operate as one to provide the salvation of our souls that we might spend eternity with God. Again, this is why I can understand that when Jesus said that we be one, just as he and the Father are one, that through the Spirit, we can be just like Jesus. Who God claims is the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD! We will all be born from the dead also. Just as God did for His Son, by raising him from the dead to life, He has given us proof through the resurrection of His Son that He can do what He has promised to do. Jesus is our example. As the Son of God, he has been raised from the dead, and over 500 people saw him alive, as proof to you and I and all who would believe and trust in Him and choose to follow His will for us in our lives... He will do the same for each of us.

God bless,
Ted

Keep in mind none of the prophets to who the word of the Lord came ever said,

Ye call me Master and Lord and ye say well for so I am. Jn.13:13 KJV

His coming + the Comforters coming = His 1st appearing (or the first resurrection),

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Jn.14:8

for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee Heb.13:5

See my friend, After man sprinkled the altar with blood he had to leave. All but One that is. He sprinkled it then sat on the Throne.

I know why Moses was shaken.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

People need to understand that under Jewish law, anyone who killed an innocent man by conspiracy was automatically condemned to death. There were no exceptions. No man on earth could forgive that sin. But One did and still can. One above the law. (The law that condemns all sinners beneath the "mercy seat" that God was sitting on.)

 

[miamited]

Hi journeyman

Then why are you disagreeing with me?

Because you seem to be making the claim that Jesus is God. I believe what the Scriptures say. Jesus is God's Son. He is God's servant. He represents to us all what God is like in His nature and desires for us.

And as I previously quoted from the Scriptures, the very words of Jesus: ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’

For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son” ?

Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. This is Jesus in his letter to the believers in Sardis. He clearly says to them, "in the sight of my God".

for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman

Because you seem to be making the claim that Jesus is God.

If One member of the Trinity was absent, creation could not exist. Therefore the Father, Son and Spirit are equal in every respect.

I believe what the Scriptures say. Jesus is God's Son. He is God's servant. He represents to us all what God is like in His nature and desires for us.

I agree because God serves mankind from His bounty every day. Have you noticed that whenever anyone serves God, he's only serving God when he is a blessing to others in His Name. The reason for this is that He gave us everything we have to begin with. Can you imagine the apostles, or you and me saying, "In the name of journeyman (Ted or Peter) get up and walk" It's only for Gods' glory,

The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day Isa.2:11 KJV

Read the passage. Find out what the NT says about it. Discover That Christ is also God.

And as I previously quoted from the Scriptures, the very words of Jesus: ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’

For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son” ?

Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. This is Jesus in his letter to the believers in Sardis. He clearly says to them, for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.

God bless,
Ted

I have no problem that only One member of the Trinity appeared on earth and told us what "God" expects. We can debate with each other or any other man (scholar or not) till the cows come home. Just not with God Himself.

 

[miamited]

Hi journeyman

Not sure how all of that applies, but ok.

Yes, I agree that without the trinity of the Godhead, that creation 'may' not have occurred. But I don't see how that necessarily means that they're all equal. That sounds like making a claim that isn't supported by the evidence that you're claiming. And I don't think I'm arguing with God. I'm just making a point about the Scriptures and how they seem to very, very often show that Jesus is subservient to His Father. Even now, Jesus sits at the right hand of the majesty who is God. He is the Lamb that was slain. The Revelation of Jesus opens up telling us that God gave him these things to reveal to us. Why would Jesus make that statement, if Jesus is God. Why not just open up with the letters?

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Runningman]

Hi journeyman

Not sure how all of that applies, but ok.

Yes, I agree that without the trinity of the Godhead, that creation 'may' not have occurred. But I don't see how that necessarily means that they're all equal. That sounds like making a claim that isn't supported by the evidence that you're claiming. And I don't think I'm arguing with God. I'm just making a point about the Scriptures and how they seem to very, very often show that Jesus is subservient to His Father. Even now, Jesus sits at the right hand of the majesty who is God. He is the Lamb that was slain. The Revelation of Jesus opens up telling us that God gave him these things to reveal to us. Why would Jesus make that statement, if Jesus is God. Why not just open up with the letters?

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

God bless,
Ted

Yes and I also might add that many of the examples say that the "Son of Man" is sitting at the right hand of God, but not that the "Son of God" is sitting at the right hand of God. I find that interesting since the term son of man just refers to humans. I think the authors were trying to make it clear that Jesus isn't himself God. The Lord Jesus is a human and Mary is the mother of the Lord in Luke 1:43.

Luke 22
69But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”

Psalm 110
1The LORD said to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman

Not sure how all of that applies, but ok.

It fits because Jesus came as an example to mankind of what He expects from mankind.

Yes, I agree that without the trinity of the Godhead, that creation 'may' not have occurred. But I don't see how that necessarily means that they're all equal. That sounds like making a claim that isn't supported by the evidence that you're claiming. And I don't think I'm arguing with God. I'm just making a point about the Scriptures and how they seem to very, very often show that Jesus is subservient to His Father.

It's an enigma until we understand why He did it.

Even now, Jesus sits at the right hand of the majesty who is God. He is the Lamb that was slain. The Revelation of Jesus opens up telling us that God gave him these things to reveal to us. Why would Jesus make that statement, if Jesus is God. Why not just open up with the letters?

Because He came to fulfill the scriptures, which tell of His victory over mankinds enemy and the gentiles would have no opportunity to hear the gospel,

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jn.12:47 KJV

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jn.12:48 KJV

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

God bless,
Ted

Yes He gave the gospel to us and affirmed it by His resurrection.

 

[miamited]

Hi journeyman

It fits because Jesus came as an example to mankind of what He expects from mankind.

Yes, that I get. However, I looked back on the post in question and I'd be hard pressed to see that's what your post is trying to explain.

It's an enigma until we understand why He did it.

So if it's an enigma, how is that you believe that you do understand it? God refers to Jesus as His Son. In the old covenant, God refers to Jesus as His servant. There are at least a few passages that portray Jesus as not having the full knowledge that God has. Several that at the very least imply that Jesus is subservient to God. The passage of Jesus speaking to Mary and telling her that he is going to "my Father and your Father, my God and your God". Since you do seem to be inferring that you understand it, how about your explanation of the enigma?

My explanation is that the 'full nature of God' that Jesus has is not that he 'is' God, but that he has the Spirit of God. This makes sense to me when Jesus prays to 'his Father' that "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—" and again, "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one."
I have given THEM the glory that YOU GAVE ME. This seems to pretty clearly make the point that Jesus' Father and God gave Jesus the glory that he then gave to us, as believers. This is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that will ultimately create in us the same nature as God the Father. But we will never be God! I believe that the trinity explains that the Godhead is made up of three distinct personalities. One of which is God the Father. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God who deemed to create all that is in this realm through His Son.
The other is the Son. The servant. The one who, filled with the Spirit of God the Father, came to us to give us God's testimony. Came to die in the body that God made for him, according to David's writing. Jesus clearly says at one point that the very words he spoke from his mouth were not his words, but were given to him by the Father. So when Jesus makes the statement "I AM!", when questioned as to what authority he has; if we believe that the words he spoke were given to him by his Father, then this was God standing behind His Son and telling him to say, "Son, tell them that I AM has given you your authority!" And so he did.
Lastly, there is the Spirit. The Spirit of God who is able to hover, as he did over the newly formed earth, still on the earth and literally can indwell our hearts and minds as we begin to take on the nature of God's Son. The three work to bring to completion our salvation. Praise God!

Because He came to fulfill the scriptures, which tell of His victory over mankinds enemy and the gentiles would have no opportunity to hear the gospel,

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jn.12:47 KJV

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jn.12:48 KJV

Aaaaand none of that says that Jesus is God. Yes, Jesus came to fulfill the Scriptures. I'm not sure what you're meaning that 'the gentiles would have no opportunity to hear the gospel'. The entire purpose of Paul's ministry and teaching work was that the Gentiles WOULD have the opportunity to hear the gospel. And if we believe the Scriptures, that was Jesus' commandment to him on the road to Damascus. Yes, anyone who rejects Jesus will die in their sin because they have not believed in the 'one whom the Father sent'.

Listen, I love Jesus. He did a wonderful and marvelous and gracious and compassionate thing for all of us in opening up the way of God's salvation to us... but I don't agree that Jesus is God. I agree with the testimony that Jesus gave us about himself. And I believe the testimony that God gave us about Jesus.

And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman

Yes, that I get. However, I looked back on the post in question and I'd be hard pressed to see that's what your post is trying to explain.

So if it's an enigma, how is that you believe that you do understand it? God refers to Jesus as His Son. In the old covenant, God refers to Jesus as His servant. There are at least a few passages that portray Jesus as not having the full knowledge that God has. Several that at the very least imply that Jesus is subservient to God. The passage of Jesus speaking to Mary and telling her that he is going to "my Father and your Father, my God and your God". Since you do seem to be inferring that you understand it, how about your explanation of the enigma?

My explanation is that the 'full nature of God' that Jesus has is not that he 'is' God, but that he has the Spirit of God. This makes sense to me when Jesus prays to 'his Father' that "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—" and again, "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one."
I have given THEM the glory that YOU GAVE ME. This seems to pretty clearly make the point that Jesus' Father and God gave Jesus the glory that he then gave to us, as believers. This is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that will ultimately create in us the same nature as God the Father. But we will never be God! I believe that the trinity explains that the Godhead is made up of three distinct personalities. One of which is God the Father. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God who deemed to create all that is in this realm through His Son.
The other is the Son. The servant. The one who, filled with the Spirit of God the Father, came to us to give us God's testimony. Came to die in the body that God made for him, according to David's writing. Jesus clearly says at one point that the very words he spoke from his mouth were not his words, but were given to him by the Father. So when Jesus makes the statement "I AM!", when questioned as to what authority he has; if we believe that the words he spoke were given to him by his Father, then this was God standing behind His Son and telling him to say, "Son, tell them that I AM has given you your authority!" And so he did.
Lastly, there is the Spirit. The Spirit of God who is able to hover, as he did over the newly formed earth, still on the earth and literally can indwell our hearts and minds as we begin to take on the nature of God's Son. The three work to bring to completion our salvation. Praise God!


Aaaaand none of that says that Jesus is God. Yes, Jesus came to fulfill the Scriptures. I'm not sure what you're meaning that 'the gentiles would have no opportunity to hear the gospel'. The entire purpose of Paul's ministry and teaching work was that the Gentiles WOULD have the opportunity to hear the gospel. And if we believe the Scriptures, that was Jesus' commandment to him on the road to Damascus. Yes, anyone who rejects Jesus will die in their sin because they have not believed in the 'one whom the Father sent'.

Listen, I love Jesus. He did a wonderful and marvelous and gracious and compassionate thing for all of us in opening up the way of God's salvation to us... but I don't agree that Jesus is God. I agree with the testimony that Jesus gave us about himself. And I believe the testimony that God gave us about Jesus.

And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

God bless,
Ted

Ted,
It's mercy that negates the law,

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more thantwelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? Mt.26:53-54 KJV

If Jesus had come as our Creator the first time, Paul would have never written anything because Paul would have been annihilated along with every other unrepentant sinner on earth. All the Messiah had to do is accuse them,

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened nothis mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Isa.53:7 KJV

 

[miamited]

Hi journeyman

It's mercy that negates the law,

No friend, nothing negates the law. But someone else paid our penalty for breaking it. I wonder, have you ever considered 'why' it took God some 1500 years to bring Jesus up through His people to die for our sin?

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

People need to understand that under Jewish law, anyone who killed an innocent man by conspiracy was automatically condemned to death. There were no exceptions. No man on earth could forgive that sin. But One did and still can. One above the law. (The law that condemns all sinners beneath the "mercy seat" that God was sitting on.)

Hi journeyman

Again, I have to scratch my head and say, "What are you talking about?" You really think that the sin that we're all condemned for is only the sin of killing an innocent man? Is that what you're inferring here?

God bless
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman

Again, I have to scratch my head and say, "What are you talking about?" You really think that the sin that we're all condemned for is only the sin of killing an innocent man? Is that what you're inferring here?

God bless
Ted

No my friend. The sin we're condemned by is our sin against God. What Christ showed is His longsuffering with sinners who wanted God out of their lives,

despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom.2:4 KJV

Talk about turning the other cheek!

 

[miamited]

No my friend. The sin we're condemned by is our sin against God. What Christ showed is His longsuffering with sinners who wanted God out of their lives,

despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom.2:4 KJV

Talk about turning the other cheek!

Hi journeyman

Yes, I agree with that statement. I don't really understand though, why you spoke of some sin of putting an innocent man to death was particularly important to this understanding.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman

Yes, I agree with that statement. I don't really understand though, why you spoke of some sin of putting an innocent man to death was particularly important to this understanding.

God bless,
Ted

Because that innocent man is also our One True King. The people didn't want God ruling over them. They wanted a visible monarch,

And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 1Sam.8:7

Still, God promised to send the King whose reign will never end. In referring back to the days of Samuel God says,

I will be thy king:where is any other that may savethee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes? Hos.13:10 KJV

So He came and He was rejected...again...but not by all. The all (us) turn out to be the mighty by showing this world the love of God.

 

[miamited]

Hi journeyman

Because that innocent man is also our One True King. The people didn't want God ruling over them. They wanted a visible monarch,

Well, I guess I just haven't been keeping up. I thought this thread and this particular discussion within it was about whether or not Jesus is God. So, I'll give this a pass from here on out because I don't think that you and I are addressing the same issue.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman


Well, I guess I just haven't been keeping up. I thought this thread and this particular discussion within it was about whether or not Jesus is God. So, I'll give this a pass from here on out because I don't think that you and I are addressing the same issue.

God bless,
Ted

That's ok Ted. Most people don't believe Jesus could have killed His enemies any time He desired. He chose to show mercy to wicked men such as myself.

 

[Rodger]

I wouldn't so this is a JW interpretation of this passage, but the Biblical plain text of the passage.

The easier reading of this passage seems to indicate that Paul is saying that Jesus got his authority from God, but that Jesus isn't equal to God. Jesus has a subordinate role to the Father, but in the end will return all of his authority to God and also be made subject to God.

Jesus' reign is temporary in this context, as it says in verse 25 "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." Which follows logically that when all enemies are under his feet, his reign ends. This is also the conclusion Paul makes in verse 28: "when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all."

It refers to all authority returning to the Father in the end. Yes, it does mean Jesus isn't God.

You said.........
" It refers to all authority returning to the Father in the end. Yes, it does mean Jesus isn't God."

One passage that JW'S often point to is 1 Corinthians 15:27-28. The point is to try and say that Jesus is not God because that is JW'S doctrine?

However, when we examine the passage, we discover that it does not teach that Jesus is not God.

Trinitarians believe that the Father and Son are distinct persons.

1 Corinthians 15:27a (ESV) – 27a For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.”

Scripture has revealed that God exists in three persons. Therefore, Trinitarians believe that when this verse speaks of “God”, it is speaking of the Father and the Father speaks to the Son, a distinct person in the Trinity.

The next problem with the JW'S argument is that it assumes Trinitarians believe that the Son is God in a way that would make the Father subservient. Trinitarians believe no such thing. As this verse says, Trinitarians affirm that the Father is not put in subjection under the Son.

1 Corinthians 15:28 (ESV) – 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

A third problem is that it assumes Trinitarians believe that the Son is God in a way which would not permit him to submit to the Father. As this verse says, Trinitarians affirm that the Son willingly submits to the Father and is in subjection to him.

That fact that the Son is in subjection to the Father does not make him a lesser being. For example, a wife willingly submits to her husband, but that does not mean she is a lesser being than he is. In a similar way, the Son submits to the Father and is not a lesser being. This analogy is not perfect because a husband and wife are equal beings while the Father and Son share the same being, but it serves to show how one can submit to another and not be lesser in being.