Misunderstand by Jws and Protestants

[Rodger]

According to reformed theology they're 1000 literal years apart. That Isn't close proximity. But according to how I'm seeing it, they are in close proximity, because the "thousand years reign" occurs in a spiritual sense. He reigns (Him + His body the church) for a thousans years,

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousandyears, and a thousand years are like a day. 2Pet.3:8 NIV

Peters' point is that "a thousand years can be an unspecified amount of time in human years. Not to man, but to God. So try reading a thousand years as an unspecified amound of time.

I understand this. Now please understand the time to enter His Eternal Kingdom is now, because in what state people are when He comes is the way they face judgement,

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev.22:11 KJV


Yes and please remember unrepentant sin is what really separated sinners from God and Jesus came to show He would have forgiven anyone of His murderers if they repented.
Do you understand the real separation has been going on all along. It's simply manifested at the end how Gods' word was true from beginning to end.

With all due respect, you are "spiritualizing" the Scriptures, IMHO.

When the Scriptures say One Thousand Years, that is exactly what it means.

2 Peter 3:8 Can NOT be used to say that the One Thousand Year rule of Christ is not 1000 years.
Context demands that Peter was reminding the believers of his day not to lose heart because God is working on a different timetable. For a human being, if something doesn’t happen within a matter of years, then we may miss it. God, however, is not limited by the same constraints of time because “with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.” Time is simply not an issue with God because He has an unlimited amount of it and He lives beyond the parameters of time.

May I say to you my friend, All the way through the Old Testament, and especially in the Prophets, this One Thousand Year Rule of a Kingdom, this thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth, is set before us. In fact, there is more Scripture — this may surprise you — on this subject than on any other subject in the Bible.

Rev. 20:2.......
"And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,"

"Revelation 20:7 (ESV)
"And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison".

Vs 5.....
"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

6
"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."

There is NO contextual or hermeneutical reason to assume that 1000 years does not mean YEARS!

 

[Rodger]

That's ok Ted. Most people don't believe Jesus could have killed His enemies any time He desired. He chose to show mercy to wicked men such as myself.

We won’t appreciate the power of Christ if we don’t recognize just how helpless we were (and are) without him. We were dead in our sin — not sick, not broken, not misguided, not flawed, but dead. From the day we were born, we laid in a grave of our own making, with hearts spiritually and emotionally incapable of loving Jesus. Sin swallowed every ounce of our hope, and yet we still loved our sin (John 3:19).

Jesus is God in the flesh and He died in the flesh to save us from what we are, sinners.

He died as a man of flesh but because He was God, He could not stay died hence His resurrection from the dead to save us from our sins!

 

[Runningman]

You said.........
" It refers to all authority returning to the Father in the end. Yes, it does mean Jesus isn't God."

One passage that JW'S often point to is 1 Corinthians 15:27-28. The point is to try and say that Jesus is not God because that is JW'S doctrine?

However, when we examine the passage, we discover that it does not teach that Jesus is not God.

Trinitarians believe that the Father and Son are distinct persons.

1 Corinthians 15:27a (ESV) – 27a For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.”

Scripture has revealed that God exists in three persons. Therefore, Trinitarians believe that when this verse speaks of “God”, it is speaking of the Father and the Father speaks to the Son, a distinct person in the Trinity.

Are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit distinctly different persons, but are all equally God? If I were a Trinitarian, I would have a problem with the Son being demonstrably not equal to God.

The next problem with the JW'S argument is that it assumes Trinitarians believe that the Son is God in a way that would make the Father subservient. Trinitarians believe no such thing. As this verse says, Trinitarians affirm that the Father is not put in subjection under the Son.


A third problem is that it assumes Trinitarians believe that the Son is God in a way which would not permit him to submit to the Father. As this verse says, Trinitarians affirm that the Son willingly submits to the Father and is in subjection to him.

That fact that the Son is in subjection to the Father does not make him a lesser being. For example, a wife willingly submits to her husband, but that does not mean she is a lesser being than he is. In a similar way, the Son submits to the Father and is not a lesser being. This analogy is not perfect because a husband and wife are equal beings while the Father and Son share the same being, but it serves to show how one can submit to another and not be lesser in being.

It's more along the lines that any power and authority that Jesus had at all, he had received from God.

God made Jesus Lord and Christ - Acts 2:36
God gave Jesus all authority - Matthew 28:18
God granted Jesus authority to give eternal life - John 17:2
God gave Jesus authority to forgive sins - Matthew 9:6-8

And many more examples, but the precedent has been adequately set. So it isn't that God and Jesus are equal at all. Jesus actually denied being equal with God. This is more like Jesus was given authority to do what he does, not because he is himself God. Much of the same authority that Jesus has, is actually available to those who overcome per Revelation 3:21.

In the end, Jesus isn't going to be asked to willingly turn his authority back over to God; No. He will be informed what is happening and will be "made subject" to God according to Paul. That isn't a husband and life relationship, this is the relationship between the Sovereign Lord of heaven and earth known as the Father and His holy servant Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15
28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[miamited]

That's ok Ted. Most people don't believe Jesus could have killed His enemies any time He desired. He chose to show mercy to wicked men such as myself.

Hi journeyman

That's what I'm talking about. This thread, as far as I know, has never been about what you're bringing up. I'm not saying that what you are writing is true or not, in fact, I would say that most of it is, but it isn't relevant to this discussion. If you'd like to discuss how protestans and jws misunderstand the concept that Jesus is God, then let's do that. If you'd rather discuss other issues, then start a thread, brother.

I'll be happy to respond as to whether or not I am one of your 'most people' on a thread concerning that issue.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

With all due respect, you are "spiritualizing" the Scriptures, IMHO.

Hello Rodger and with all due respect to you, I didn't "spiritualize" it. Peter did. Peter said a thousand years is like a day to God not to me.

When the Scriptures say One Thousand Years, that is exactly what it means.

Yes it does, but no actual number (one or otherwise is connected to 2Pe.3:8 or Rev.20.2,4,6. Peter is saying God doesn't count time as men do,

For a thousand yearsin thy sight are but as yesterdaywhen it is past, and as a watch in the night. Psa.90:4 KJV

2 Peter 3:8 Can NOT be used to say that the One Thousand Year rule of Christ is not 1000 years.
Context demands that Peter was reminding the believers of his day not to lose heart because God is working on a different timetable. For a human being, if something doesn’t happen within a matter of years, then we may miss it. God, however, is not limited by the same constraints of time because “with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.” Time is simply not an issue with God because He has an unlimited amount of it and He lives beyond the parameters of time.

May I say to you my friend, All the way through the Old Testament, and especially in the Prophets, this One Thousand Year Rule of a Kingdom, this thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth, is set before us. iIn fact, there is more Scripture — this may surprise you — on this subject than on any other subject in the Bible.

Rev. 20:2.......
"And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,"

"Revelation 20:7 (ESV)
"And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison".

Vs 5.....
"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

6
"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."

There is NO contextual or hermeneutical reason to assume that 1000 years does not mean YEARS!

We're conquering the enemy now by Christ returning to us by His Spirit. When He returns in Person, visibly, it's judgement day.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

We won’t appreciate the power of Christ if we don’t recognize just how helpless we were (and are) without him. We were dead in our sin — not sick, not broken, not misguided, not flawed, but dead. From the day we were born, we laid in a grave of our own making, with hearts spiritually and emotionally incapable of loving Jesus. Sin swallowed every ounce of our hope, and yet we still loved our sin (John 3:19).

We become separated from God by our own sin, not anyone elses sin.

Jesus is God in the flesh and He died in the flesh to save us from what we are, sinners.

He died as a man of flesh but because He was God, He could not stay died hence His resurrection from the dead to save us from our sins!

I know Jesus died holding back His own anger at how sinfully He was mocked and abused.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman

That's what I'm talking about. This thread, as far as I know, has never been about what you're bringing up. I'm not saying that what you are writing is true or not, in fact, I would say that most of it is, but it isn't relevant to this discussion.

It's the core of what I'm talking about. Attempting to separate the Son from the Father is the reason for all error. All of it.

If you'd like to discuss how protestans and jws misunderstand the concept that Jesus is God, then let's do that. If you'd rather discuss other issues, then start a thread, brother.

No need. As far as atonement, JW doctrine teaches the ransom theory and Reformed doctrine teaches penal substitution. Both are wrong.

I'll be happy to respond as to whether or not I am one of your 'most people' on a thread concerning that issue.
God bless,
Ted

I'm not sure if you believe Jesus needed to pay the devil to release you from bondage, or that God needed to punished Himself to pay for your sin.
The gospel shows how God owns everything and freely forgives anyone who comes to Him with a sincere heart.

 

[miamited]

It's the core of what I'm talking about. Attempting to separate the Son from the Father is the reason for all error. All of it.

Hey journeyman

Ok, so your position is that anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus is God, is the root of all evil. Could you offer some evidence that's what God believes, or has said to us in His word?

I'm not sure if you believe Jesus needed to pay the devil to release you from bondage, or that God needed to punished Himself to pay for your sin.

Well, as I understand the law given by God to the Hebrews in the wilderness, their sacrifices were to appease God. I think that most believers understand that Jesus' sacrifice was for that same intention, only his sacrifice was the perfect sacrifice that God demanded for our sin. I honestly can't find anywhere in the Scriptures that God alluded to Israel when giving them the law that their sacrifices were somehow to hold Satan at bay. I suppose I could be wrong, but I'd want to see evidence of it, if your position is different on that issue.

And I'm glad that we're now back on the OP's topic.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hey journeyman

Ok, so your position is that anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus is God, is the root of all evil.

Not exactly. we should come to understand that Jesus is God as we grow in Him.

Could you offer some evidence that's what God believes, or has said to us in His word?

I've been doing that all along.

Well, as I understand the law given by God to the Hebrews in the wilderness, their sacrifices were to appease God.

Exactly. Was God appeased by His Son being abused, or was God appeased when His Son was longsuffering toward sinners?

I think that most believers understand that Jesus' sacrifice was for that same intention, only his sacrifice was the perfect sacrifice that God demanded for our sin.

He's the unblemised Sacrifice and the High Priest Who offered Himself and Who sat on the Throne. Think about that.

I honestly can't find anywhere in the Scriptures that God alluded to Israel when giving them the law that their sacrifices were somehow to hold Satan at bay. I suppose I could be wrong, but I'd want to see evidence of it, if your position is different on that issue.

My position is different because the Jews thought the Messiah would come and defeat their mortal enemies. The reformers believe He's returning later to defeat our mortal enemies. They don't even know who the enemy really is.

And I'm glad that we're now back on the OP's topic.

God bless,
Ted

I never left the topic my friend. God is pleased by the the right thinking and conduct of His Own Nature.

 

[Rodger]

We become separated from God by our own sin, not anyone elses sin.

I know Jesus died holding back His own anger at how sinfully He was mocked and abused.

Agreed, but we all know that, what is your point????

 

[Rodger]

Hello Rodger and with all due respect to you, I didn't "spiritualize" it. Peter did. Peter said a thousand years is like a day to God not to me.

Yes it does, but no actual number (one or otherwise is connected to 2Pe.3:8 or Rev.20.2,4,6. Peter is saying God doesn't count time as men do,

For a thousand yearsin thy sight are but as yesterdaywhen it is past, and as a watch in the night. Psa.90:4 KJV

We're conquering the enemy now by Christ returning to us by His Spirit. When He returns in Person, visibly, it's judgement day.

He will return Two more times. One in the air = Rapture.
Two is at Armageddon when "every eye wiil see Him".

I agree, time to God is not the same as it is to us.

However, "YOU" are the one who used the idea of 1000 years is not actually 1000 years.

All I am saying is the opposite. 1000 years is 1000 years in the Revelation as the Millennial Rule of Christ and "Contextually:, the phrase Peter used has nothing to do with that literal number.
To say otherwise is to "Spiritualize" that Scripture.

 

[Rodger]

Are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit distinctly different persons, but are all equally God? If I were a Trinitarian, I would have a problem with the Son being demonstrably not equal to God.

It's more along the lines that any power and authority that Jesus had at all, he had received from God.

God made Jesus Lord and Christ - Acts 2:36
God gave Jesus all authority - Matthew 28:18
God granted Jesus authority to give eternal life - John 17:2
God gave Jesus authority to forgive sins - Matthew 9:6-8

And many more examples, but the precedent has been adequately set. So it isn't that God and Jesus are equal at all. Jesus actually denied being equal with God. This is more like Jesus was given authority to do what he does, not because he is himself God. Much of the same authority that Jesus has, is actually available to those who overcome per Revelation 3:21.

In the end, Jesus isn't going to be asked to willingly turn his authority back over to God; No. He will be informed what is happening and will be "made subject" to God according to Paul. That isn't a husband and life relationship, this is the relationship between the Sovereign Lord of heaven and earth known as the Father and His holy servant Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15
28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

I respect the fact that you have stated that you do not believe in the Trinity.

May I say to you with all due respect to you that the Bible affirms that there is one God who eternally exists and is fully expressed in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That 3 in One discription is seen in the 1st Verse of the Scriptures and all through the Bible including the last book where we see John "In The Spirit On The Lords Day".

Each member of the Godhead is equally God, each is eternally God, and each is fully God–not three gods but three Persons of the one eternal Godhead. Each Person is equal in essence to the other divine Persons. Each possesses fully and simultaneously the identically same, eternal divine nature. Yet each is also an eternal and distinct personal expression of that one and undivided divine nature.

Now, what I am about to say is not said to cause you anger or to be upset in any way whatsoever, BUT I must emphasize that it is not necessary that a person understand the Trinity in order to be saved.

Salvation consists in believing on the Person of Jesus Christ and His work on Calvary's cross - not on ones view of the Trinity. However those who have trusted Christ as Savior should readily accept the doctrine of the Trinity once it is explained to them.
WHY????

Because it gives us a proper understanding of the God whom Christians obey and worship. This will keep one from worshipping false gods - something the Bible strongly condemns. A correct understanding of the Trinity is also a safeguard against error. Those who have a wrong conception of the Trinity will likely be wrong in other areas of their belief system. When the Trinity is properly understood then the believer can appreciate the participation of all three Persons in the salvation process.

 

[miamited]

I've been doing that all along.

Hi journeyman

I'm sorry, I guess I missed that point in your explanations so far. Could you be so kind as to point me to your specific posts that have shown where you find God's word condemns us for attempting to separate the Son from the Father is the reason for all error?

Was God appeased by His Son being abused, or was God appeased when His Son was longsuffering toward sinners?

I think, as I said, God was appeased by the death of His Son. I don't think that either of those issues you're asking about was the event that appeased God's wrath. However, God was surely pleased with the life that His Son lived while here with us.

He's the unblemised Sacrifice and the High Priest Who offered Himself and Who sat on the Throne. Think about that.

Consider it thought about. Ok, here's what I get. Yes, God's Son was the unblemished sacrifice. No, he did not sit on any throne that I can find. The ascension of Jesus mentions that he ascended to sit at the right hand of the Majesty.

My position is different because the Jews thought the Messiah would come and defeat their mortal enemies. The reformers believe He's returning later to defeat our mortal enemies. They don't even know who the enemy really is.

I appreciate your telling me your understanding on that, but I'm not clear on how that applies to this statement: I honestly can't find anywhere in the Scriptures that God alluded to Israel when giving them the law that their sacrifices were somehow to hold Satan at bay. And I think that the Scriptures are fairly clear that Jesus will return with his armies to defeat his enemies. I don't really know whether the descriptor of 'mortal' has any purpose, but ok. I do agree, however, just to close out any misunderstanding on the issue you bring up, although it doesn't seem germane, that the majority of Israel expected their Messiah to destroy their enemies on the earth at his first appearance. And that is probably the biggest reason they wanted to kill him. Instead of vanquishing their enemies, he was constantly railing against them. There's a place in the Scriptures where we are told that after making some damning statements against them that they sought to kill him. I would disagree that the reformers don't know who the enemy is. But that's your position and you'll have to go with it.

However, let's do remember that they were supposed to want to kill him.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Agreed, but we all know that, what is your point????

My point is if "we all know that", then how did mankind turning away from the Messiah become God turned away on the Messiah? That couldn't happen for even one second.
Or did Christ need to pay a debt to anyone because He doesn't have creditors.

 

[miamited]

My point is if "we all know that", then how did mankind turning away from the Messiah become God turned away on the Messiah? That couldn't happen for even one second.
Or did Christ need to pay a debt to anyone because He doesn't have creditors.

Hi Rodger

I'm dying to hear your response on that. LOL!

God bless, Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

He will return Two more times. One in the air = Rapture.
Two is at Armageddon when "every eye wiil see Him".

No returns in Spirit and yhr Holy Spirit im us along with Christ are Two Faithful Witnesses.
They will let us know if we are approved at the judgement seat Christ, aka the "great white throne judgement.

I agree, time to God is not the same as it is to us.

However, "YOU" are the one who used the idea of 1000 years is not actually 1000 years.

I used it that way because Peter did and it makes sense. You're seeing us now as being under the authority of other men and demons, but we're not anymore with Christ in us, going to war against them and conquering.

All I am saying is the opposite. 1000 years is 1000 years in the Revelation as the Millennial Rule of Christ and "Contextually:, the phrase Peter used has nothing to do with that literal number.
To say otherwise is to "Spiritualize" that Scripture.

No one is transformed without being tried by fire.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I respect the fact that you have stated that you do not believe in the Trinity.

I believe in the Trinity, which is why I reject the man made idea any One member could be separated from the other Two.
I've cited this error by theologians and you say nothing in response.

May I say to you with all due respect to you that the Bible affirms that there is one God who eternally exists and is fully expressed in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That 3 in One discription is seen in the 1st Verse of the Scriptures and all through the Bible including the last book where we see John "In The Spirit On The Lords Day".

Each member of the Godhead is equally God, each is eternally God, and each is fully God–not three gods but three Persons of the one eternal Godhead. Each Person is equal in essence to the other divine Persons. Each possesses fully and simultaneously the identically same, eternal divine nature. Yet each is also an eternal and distinct personal expression of that one and undivided divine nature.

Now, what I am about to say is not said to cause you anger or to be upset in any way whatsoever, BUT I must emphasize that it is not necessary that a person understand the Trinity in order to be saved.

I'm not upset. "Believing in Jesus" is doing what He says.

Salvation consists in believing on the Person of Jesus Christ and His work on Calvary's cross - not on ones view of the Trinity. However those who have trusted Christ as Savior should readily accept the doctrine of the Trinity once it is explained to them.
WHY????

Because it gives us a proper understanding of the God whom Christians obey and worship. This will keep one from worshipping false gods - something the Bible strongly condemns. A correct understanding of the Trinity is also a safeguard against error. Those who have a wrong conception of the Trinity will likely be wrong in other areas of their belief system. When the Trinity is properly understood then the believer can appreciate the participation of all three Persons in the salvation process.

You seem to think "the work of Jesus" is something other than showing love, compassion, mercy, grace, immense patience, all while sinners were laughing at Him.

Maybe you should think about how Gods' anger with sinners is the same anger His Son has,

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2Pe.3:8-9

 

[Rodger]

No returns in Spirit and yhr Holy Spirit im us along with Christ are Two Faithful Witnesses.
They will let us know if we are approved at the judgement seat Christ, aka the "great white throne judgement.

I used it that way because Peter did and it makes sense. You're seeing us now as being under the authority of other men and demons, but we're not anymore with Christ in us, going to war against them and conquering.

No one is transformed without being tried by fire.

I am not "seeing" anything at all. I just responded to your post that somehow 1000 years does not mean a literal 1000 year reign of Christ. I am simply saying that it is a literal 1000 years!

 

[Rodger]

I believe in the Trinity, which is why I reject the man made idea any One member could be separated from the other Two.
I've cited this error by theologians and you say nothing in response.

I'm not upset. "Believing in Jesus" is doing what He says.

You seem to think "the work of Jesus" is something other than showing love, compassion, mercy, grace, immense patience, all while sinners were laughing at Him.

Maybe you should think about how Gods' anger with sinners is the same anger His Son has,

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2Pe.3:8-9

No sir....I am not thinking any thing at all. YOU said that you were NOT a Trinitarian or did I misunderstand.

"Believing in Jesus" is not what it takes to be saved. Even demons believe in Jesus and they are not saved.

God's anger at sin is why Jesus died for us. God hates sin but loves the sinner.

Jesus is God in the flesh.

In John 14:9-10, Jesus said,......
"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

 

[Runningman]

I respect the fact that you have stated that you do not believe in the Trinity.

May I say to you with all due respect to you that the Bible affirms that there is one God who eternally exists and is fully expressed in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That 3 in One discription is seen in the 1st Verse of the Scriptures and all through the Bible including the last book where we see John "In The Spirit On The Lords Day".

Each member of the Godhead is equally God, each is eternally God, and each is fully God–not three gods but three Persons of the one eternal Godhead. Each Person is equal in essence to the other divine Persons. Each possesses fully and simultaneously the identically same, eternal divine nature. Yet each is also an eternal and distinct personal expression of that one and undivided divine nature.

Now, what I am about to say is not said to cause you anger or to be upset in any way whatsoever, BUT I must emphasize that it is not necessary that a person understand the Trinity in order to be saved.

Salvation consists in believing on the Person of Jesus Christ and His work on Calvary's cross - not on ones view of the Trinity. However those who have trusted Christ as Savior should readily accept the doctrine of the Trinity once it is explained to them.
WHY????

Because it gives us a proper understanding of the God whom Christians obey and worship. This will keep one from worshipping false gods - something the Bible strongly condemns. A correct understanding of the Trinity is also a safeguard against error. Those who have a wrong conception of the Trinity will likely be wrong in other areas of their belief system. When the Trinity is properly understood then the believer can appreciate the participation of all three Persons in the salvation process.

I am aware of verses that use Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or some combination therefore, but nothing in context describes or explains that they are a Triune God. For me that's a problem. Yet what I can find with frequency is the Father is the only true God in so clear and explicit terms.

What I see in the Bible is that Jesus is an anointed and glorified man with a God that he obeyed, but could have simply chosen not to. Too many issues with Jesus being susceptible to temptation, but God not. The easiest way to make sense of it to me is by what is apparently true. It's that the Bible says Jesus is a man who God was with.

Scarcely is there anything in the New Testament that Jesus was said to have done, received, or became that others cannot. I don't believe that makes Christians God. I use the same standard for what Jesus received from God as what others received; they are all apparently God's children with Jesus being the firstborn.

Also, apparently Jesus didn't say or do anything in the Old Testament. I have seen it said that Jesus = YHWH and yet there are clear instances where Jesus is not. So while I understand and respect your perspective, I myself just can't come to agree with it.