[_ Old Earth _] More evolution witnessed in labs

[John]

A limit would be microbe to man.
a fish to a land mammal
dinosaur to a bird
etc.

Dogs produce a variety of dogs, No one argues this but i think there would be a definitive limit in there, a dog over X number of years would not change into another kind of animal.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

A limit would be microbe to man.
a fish to a land mammal
dinosaur to a bird
etc.

Dogs produce a variety of dogs, No one argues this but i think there would be a definitive limit in there, a dog over X number of years would not change into another kind of animal.

those are decent theories and not the overal ToE. you could disagree with dino -> bird and still accept evolution.

I am asking if you disagree that if you isolate two of the same species long enough that their is a possiblilty for the genetic differences to accumulate enough that if you took one from each of the isolated populations, they could no longer produce fertile offspring.

 

[John]

Yes i agree, last time i check the wolf and dog could mate but the offspring would not be able to reproduce.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Once more it is still a bacteria,

Of course it is. We don't expect anything else at that timespan.

The step from single- to multicellularity has been directly observed in another experiment though.

Neat. Still not conclusive though. Long time spans are not observable in the lab, so your theory of microbe to man cannot be considered fact, based on the evidence, all we have is little physical evidence that no matter what way you interpret it, it does not point to "microbe to man" macro style evolution.

You have seen micro style evolution, and you have built up assumptions that microbe to man is the answer to why we are here without any concrete evidence. Your interpretations must not "evolve" in to fact unless they are indeed factual. Here is ware you need your own faith in this matter, you need faith that your 5 pieces out of a 100,000 piece puzzle are enough to guess at what the final image is.

Thats why i am a Christian fundamentalist, you see i have the other 99,995 pieces to the puzzle, you just hate what it entails. :wink:

I must assume that you disagree with stellar evolution. You would conclude from this line of reasoning that since we can never view the life cycle of a star, any extrapolation from studying various stars in their state will neccesarrily be false and pure conjecture. ie. we can not say that any particular red giant, white dwarf, main sequence, or proto star was not always that way.

Until we can witness the whole cycle the data is faith based and shouldn't be taught or studied.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Yes i agree, last time i check the wolf and dog could mate but the offspring would not be able to reproduce.

So you agree that genetic differences can accumulate to such a point that if you isolate two groups from the same species, it will be possible that at some point their decendants will no longer be able to breed cross-group because of the genetic changes from random mutations that were passed on to subsequent generations?

 

[John]

I can be taught, but at least say the weaknesses, there is no reason it can't be studied, but stop trying to push theories away because the suggest a God.

 

[John]

Yes i agree, last time i check the wolf and dog could mate but the offspring would not be able to reproduce.

So you agree that genetic differences can accumulate to such a point that if you isolate two groups from the same species, it will be possible that at some point their decendants will no longer be able to breed cross-group because of the genetic changes from random mutations?

I see ware your going with this, and like I've said there are limits, and evolution cannot break them.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Yes i agree, last time i check the wolf and dog could mate but the offspring would not be able to reproduce.

So you agree that genetic differences can accumulate to such a point that if you isolate two groups from the same species, it will be possible that at some point their decendants will no longer be able to breed cross-group because of the genetic changes from random mutations?

I see ware your going with this, and like I've said there are limits, and evolution cannot break them.

Do you or do you not agree?

 

[jwu]

Once more it is still a bacteria,

Of course it is. We don't expect anything else at that timespan.

The step from single- to multicellularity has been directly observed in another experiment though.

Neat. Still not conclusive though. Long time spans are not observable in the lab, so your theory of microbe to man cannot be considered fact, based on the evidence, all we have is little physical evidence that no matter what way you interpret it, it does not point to "microbe to man" macro style evolution.

We do see the residues of the process of evolution in form of genetic features which shouldn't be there in case of creatio ex nihilo.

You have seen micro style evolution, and you have built up assumptions that microbe to man is the answer to why we are here without any concrete evidence.

Excuse me...you seriously call the step from single to multicellular life microevolution?

Your interpretations must not "evolve" in to fact unless they are indeed factual. Here is ware you need your own faith in this matter, you need faith that your 5 pieces out of a 100,000 piece puzzle are enough to guess at what the final image is.

So what pieces of genetic evidence for evolution are you aware of?

Thats why i am a Christian fundamentalist, you see i have the other 99,995 pieces to the puzzle, you just hate what it entails. :wink:

I wouldn't mind it at all - if it were true. Unfortunately, the evidence doesn't point that way. Didn't you abandon all those threads about the evidence against the noachian flood, among others?

But you claim that you have seen the whole picture...do you realize how arrogant this sounds? Aren't you "professing yourself wise"...?

 

[Agricola]

My thoughts based on Original Post.

FIrst of all we still have an Ecoli bacteria, although its learnt a new trick. It is not really much different from genetic difference within a species such as humans.

What would really be a poke in the eye is if that Ecoli bacteria grew limbs along with head complete with brain, eyes and a mouth, along with a respiratory system with a heart and lungs and various organs.

Until that happens this experiment has proved nothing apart from that after millions of generations the bacteria eventually learned a new trick and that evolution is still a very flawed theory which has no conclusive physical proof or evidence to support it.

 

[jwu]

Until that happens this experiment has proved nothing apart from that after millions of generations the bacteria eventually learned a new trick and that evolution is still a very flawed theory which has no conclusive physical proof or evidence to support it.

Those millions of generations took a mere twenty years...

No conclusive physical evidence? Have you looked for it yourself or taken someone's word for this information?

 

[Agricola]

Until that happens this experiment has proved nothing apart from that the bacteria eventually learned a new trick and that evolution is still a very flawed theory which has no conclusive physical proof or evidence to support it.

Those millions of generations took a mere twenty years...

No conclusive physical evidence? Have you looked for it yourself or taken someone's word for this information?

Yes I came to an educated conclusion several decades ago on this matter. I still read up on scientific papers and read through all the revised theories every time a new fossil is discovered. I come to the conclusion these days that evolution is struggling harder and harder to keep its theory intact.

W are only talking about a simple bacteria and it only managed to learn to absorb a different chemical. Where are the limbs or the beginnings of a head and body? How many years are we going to wait for that to happen? Why has it not happened?

All we need to see are these cells to simply grow a tail then yes you have some physical concrete proof of evolution, but all we have is a simple change within the ecoil bacteria, its still an ecoil bacteria.

IT is not much different from how people have created hundreds of species of dogs of all shape, colour and sizes over the past few hundred years. The same goes for budgies, a long period of specialized breeding has resulted in hundreds of colour combinations where only Green birds are found living in wild.


The reason why we have so much fuss over evolution is that those who do not beleive in God can not reject evolution even with all its flaws and inconstancies, as there is nothing else to say how we all got here apart from intelligent design and creationism. UNles you want to sign up to the alien theory that everything was shipped to this planet by aliens from all over the galaxy in a crazy experiment.

 

[John]

UNles you want to sign up to the alien theory that everything was shipped to this planet by aliens from all over the galaxy in a crazy experiment.

But that leads to the question: where did those aliens come from,how did they evolve : :smt120

 

[jwu]

Yes I came to an educated conclusion several decades ago on this matter. I still read up on scientific papers and read through all the revised theories every time a new fossil is discovered. I come to the conclusion these days that evolution is struggling harder and harder to keep its theory intact.

The ToE has changed much in the past three decades, but what makes you think that it is "struggling"?

What lines of reasoning that are used as evidence for the ToE have you read about, but find lacking? Please be specific.

W are only talking about a simple bacteria and it only managed to learn to absorb a different chemical. Where are the limbs or the beginnings of a head and body? How many years are we going to wait for that to happen? Why has it not happened?

The ToE does not propose that this should happen, so why do you want such a thing as evidence for the ToE?

All we need to see are these cells to simply grow a tail then yes you have some physical concrete proof of evolution, but all we have is a simple change within the ecoil bacteria, its still an ecoil bacteria.

...and we humans are still eukaryotes, chordates, vertebrates, mammals. So what?

Besides, speciation has been observed many times.

The reason why we have so much fuss over evolution is that those who do not beleive in God can not reject evolution even with all its flaws and inconstancies, as there is nothing else to say how we all got here apart from intelligent design and creationism. UNles you want to sign up to the alien theory that everything was shipped to this planet by aliens from all over the galaxy in a crazy experiment.

So? "We don't know but we're working on it" is a perfectly acceptable alternative for those who reject the ToE.

 

[freeway]

O and to void your cop out " we were not made in Gods image"

Colossians 1:15-16 Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers-- all things have been created through him and for him.

Jesus we know is in Human form, made in the Image of God the father as were we.

Could not say it better myself!!! :-D but if I may add.....

2 peter 3: 3-6
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2 peter 3:3-6

 

[Barbarian]

Jesus says:
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Accept His Word. He is right; you are wrong.

 

[John]

^^^ "for a spirit hath not flesh and bones or hands and feet". they seen him here as a physical form. what he was saying was that you can't kill the spirit.

Regardless of your whack interpretations, we were made in Gods image...Human.

 

[Barbarian]

for a spirit hath not flesh and bones or hands and feet". they seen him here as a physical form. what he was saying was that you can't kill the spirit.

That's not what He said, is it? He said that a spirit lacks a body. And HE said God is a spirit. Because you are not willing to accept what Jesus said, you changed his words to suit yourself. You want the Bible to be literal, until it says something you don't like, and then you want to change it.

Regardless of your whack interpretations, we were made in Gods image...Human.

As you see, Jesus said otherwise.

 

[John]

What does a spirit look like anyway?

God would not have a physical body but a spirit one..in the general form of a human probably made of light ( to remove the stumbling block of "was god white, black, Asian etc)

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
John 9:5, KJV


"Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light
with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come
upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not
whither he goeth...I am come a light into the world, that
whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness."
John 12:35, 46, KJV

 

[Jayls5]

"Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light
with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come
upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not
whither he goeth...I am come a light into the world, that
whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness."
John 12:35, 46, KJV

Sweet, a testable theory from the bible.

We can take a bunch of Christians, put them into a room, and then measure the light in the room upon cutting the power.

Then we can take a bunch of Atheists, put them into a room, and then measure the light in the room upon cutting the power.

Something tells me the amount of light will be equal.