mormonism

[LightWithin]

And you're aware of the vast differences between who Christ is according to Mormonism and who he is according to traditional Christianity?

I most certainly am aware of the differences, although experience has led me to conclude that the perception of just how vast these differences are varies among Christians, including among Mormons. That there are differences is evident enough, and that these differences bear in great degree on the respective theologies is also clear.

 

[Free]

I most certainly am aware of the differences, although experience has led me to conclude that the perception of just how vast these differences are varies among Christians, including among Mormons. That there are differences is evident enough, and that these differences bear in great degree on the respective theologies is also clear.

The vast majority of Christians believe what Christianity has traditionally taught and holds as the orthodox understanding of the nature or Christ, namely, that he is the God-man, the second person of the Trinity. Any other belief about Christ begs the question as to whether such persons are Christians in the first place. So one must be careful in saying some Christians believe he is God and some believe is merely a created being.

 

[LightWithin]

The vast majority of Christians believe what Christianity has traditionally taught and holds as the orthodox understanding of the nature or Christ, namely, that he is the God-man, the second person of the Trinity. Any other belief about Christ begs the question as to whether such persons are Christians in the first place.

Again, my experience with other Christians (many of whom who would identify themselves as being from the majority you mention) is that there is divergence in how "a Christian" is defined, and that there is likewise a no consensus as to the "vastness" of the differences you spoke of two posts ago, as it pertains to the character and nature of the Savior.

So one must be careful in saying some Christians believe he is God and some believe is merely a created being.

I understand your point, and yet some "mainstream" Christians do not tread quite so cautiously. That's my point. I know Trinitarian Christians who wouldn't so much as blink when responding to the question, "Are Mormons Christian?" or "Are Mormons Christians?" Their response would be—and has been—an absolute "Yes!"

 

[Mike]

Hi, LW.

Would you agree that Joseph Smith had a revelation from Maroni that was quite unique compared to anything in the New Testament? Would you agree with him that all Christian churches were mistaken (are mistaken), and that the Mormon Church "corrects" what the orthodox Church leaves wanting?

Do you believe you can aspire to become a 'god' after you are through here on earth?

Finally, do you see any salvific advantage for someone to convert from orthodox Christianity to the LDS?

Sorry for all the questions. Feel free to ask me any!

 

[Free]

Again, my experience with other Christians (many of whom who would identify themselves as being from the majority you mention) is that there is divergence in how "a Christian" is defined, and that there is likewise a no consensus as to the "vastness" of the differences you spoke of two posts ago, as it pertains to the character and nature of the Savior.

There is no greater vastness than that between Creator and creature. Either Christ is the Creator or he is a mere creature, as we are. Since, as you agreed, it matters who Christ is, it would seem the most reasonable position is that Christians are to believe one or the other, and that we simply cannot call Christian all those who believe he is uncreated and those who believe he is created. One group is Christian and the other not.

I understand your point, and yet some "mainstream" Christians do not tread quite so cautiously. That's my point. I know Trinitarian Christians who wouldn't so much as blink when responding to the question, "Are Mormons Christian?" or "Are Mormons Christians?" Their response would be—and has been—an absolute "Yes!"

That some may believe such does not make it true. There is much error that has crept into the church; much worldly, post-modernist thinking.

Speaking of which, if Joseph Smith was supposedly told by two personages that he should not join any church since they are all corrupt, what has changed? Why is Mormonism trying so hard to be included among those exact same churches? Was Joseph Smith wrong or is the Mormon church wrong?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I know Trinitarian Christians who wouldn't so much as blink when responding to the question, "Are Mormons Christian?" or "Are Mormons Christians?" Their response would be—and has been—an absolute "Yes!"

A distinction must be made between what a person of faith believes and what that persons faith teaches. So, if a fundamental teaching of Christianity is that the nature of God is Triune, and that the nature of Jesus is fully man/fully God, then any teaching that diverges from these truths (the Trinity, Christ's divinity) cannot be reconciled with Christianity; Regardless of what those who accept these truths believe about including those who deny these truths into Christianity.

 

[LightWithin]

There is no greater vastness than that between Creator and creature.

That is an interesting way of putting it. As a father of 7 (almost 8), the vastness that existed between the creator (me) and the created (my children) could not have been greater than in the moment of their creation (conception). However, inherent in the creature was the capacity for enlargement. The vastness of separation between the creator and the creature has been shrinking since that moment of creation. One day there will be no significant separation between my children and I beyond gender, identity, experience and earthly age. If Christ was created but now is God, what vastness or separation remains? That, of course, is a discussion all to itself. But perhaps you can see why this difference in theology—created Savior vs. uncreated Savior—becomes to me (and, as I mentioned, to many Trinitarian Christians I know) a thing past which I can look when searching for fellow Christians.

Either Christ is the Creator or he is a mere creature, as we are.

Again, if Christ is God—which he is—whether or not he was a creature or uncreated makes little difference to me (in a philosophical sense). For other reasons it is important to me that I understand who and and what he is/was. I just don't personally see a reason to use that as a dividing line for Christian identity.

Since, as you agreed, it matters who Christ is, it would seem the most reasonable position is that Christians are to believe one or the other, and that we simply cannot call Christian all those who believe he is uncreated and those who believe he is created. One group is Christian and the other not.

I think I've made my point here, and probably don't need to repeat why I differ in my use of this aspect of a Christian's beliefs.

That some may believe such does not make it true.

True for whom? Did Jesus Christ ever use the term "Christian"? Did he spell out what it did and didn't mean? Did he apply it to some and not to others? Who, then gets to say who is Christian? To my knowledge, God has never drawn a line in the sand where the term "Christian" is concerned. Christ did, however, teach his disciples that "he that is not against us is on our part." (Mark 9:40) I'd say that's a powerful message. His disciples wanted to exclude, and Christ showed them that they were drawing the lines in the sand where they had no business doing so.

There is much error that has crept into the church; much worldly, post-modernist thinking.

I agree.

Speaking of which, if Joseph Smith was supposedly told by two personages that he should not join any church since they are all corrupt, what has changed?

**EDIT** My original response to this question was not in the context of what you asked. I misunderstood what you were asking. So I'm changing my response. You ask what has changed since that time when Christ told Joseph not to join any of the churches of his day because of the corruption of their doctrines, etc. Well a lot has changed and a lot has not changed. First off, the instruction given to Joseph not to join any church was specific to him and him alone. In other words, Christ's message was not that Joseph was to preach that people shouldn't join other churches, but he was ultimately to preach repentance and baptism in the New and Everlasting Covenant of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. This has remained consistent. As a full-time missionary, I did not preach that people shouldn't join X, Y, or Z church—that is not the message of the Gospel. I did preach the same thing that Joseph was commanded to preach. Some things that have changed are the perceptions, attitudes, opinions, and such of the mortals known as Mormons. Anyone well versed in American history knows that a general attitude of exclusiveness and divisiveness was alive and well among the sects of Christianity during the 1800s. This was not unique to Mormons, nor was it overcome by them. For the most part, all Christian groups treated those different than themselves with some degree of contempt, although this behavior was likely more observed in some regions than in others. Nor was this behavior exclusive to Christian religions. Many who professed no religion at all were just as self-centered. And yet it was, in part, this divisiveness among Christians that led Joseph to the grove in the first place! At any rate, this exclusiveness on the part of Mormons was pushed to extremes by relentless persecution. From the moment Joseph first told his vision outside his immediate circle of family and friends, he and his followers were persecuted in varying forms and degrees, culminating personally for Joseph in his death, of course. The attitude of isolation that accompanied Mormons up into the 20th century has changed. The bottom line is, we Mormons as a people have a different outlook and attitude than did the early Saints. I believe that better answers your question in the context of what followed...

Why is Mormonism trying so hard to be included among those exact same churches?

Why should we not? By doing so we are not attempting to infiltrate them, assimilate them, or impose upon them that they change their beliefs or teachings, nor is our desire for inclusion an admission that there don't actually exist differences in our views. It just seems to me that if the Samaritan was the injured Jew's neighbor (and these two certainly had volatile theological differences), while the Jews who passed him by were not, then how does it square that Mormons and Trinitarians are not all "Christians"—a man-made term and categorization—so long as their conduct truly denotes that they are?

Was Joseph Smith wrong or is the Mormon church wrong?

In my book this has zero bearing on whether or not two people—or two billion people—can accept each other as fellow Christians. I know that to many it does, but not to me. Was not the term "Christian" first uttered as an insult by those who did not believe in Christ? Was it not intended to exclude and isolate? If we would frown upon that, are we not hypocrites if we turn around and use it to exclude others who, by all standards but a few, are like us and are "on our part"?

 

[LightWithin]

A distinction must be made between what a person of faith believes and what that persons faith teaches. So, if a fundamental teaching of Christianity is that the nature of God is Triune, and that the nature of Jesus is fully man/fully God, then any teaching that diverges from these truths (the Trinity, Christ's divinity) cannot be reconciled with Christianity; Regardless of what those who accept these truths believe about including those who deny these truths into Christianity.

Again, as in my previous post, who determines what Christianity is and who is Christian? Man. So if I embrace you as a Christian, have I violated a trust or covenant with God? Is He pleased or displeased with me? Have I taught false doctrine? Have I furthered or hindered God's cause?

You know?

 

[LightWithin]

Hi, LW.

Would you agree that Joseph Smith had a revelation from Maroni that was quite unique compared to anything in the New Testament?

I would not say that it was absolutely unique, although each vision or revelation from God to man is unique in its own right. Such visions and revelations have ever attended God's dealings with his children, so long as faith has been found among them. Nor do I see the relevance in isolating such an experience in relation to the New Testament or to the period in which it was played out and recorded. God's work is one eternal round, is it not?

Would you agree with him that all Christian churches were mistaken (are mistaken), and that the Mormon Church "corrects" what the orthodox Church leaves wanting?

I agree with what Christ said to Joseph on that occasion, and were I to disagree with it, upon what basis would I explain to God that I were doing so?

Do you believe you can aspire to become a 'god' after you are through here on earth?

I do not aspire to become anything. I believe God, however, when He freely offers me all that He has. I am grateful for the offer of the gift, and strive to be worthy of it.

Finally, do you see any salvific advantage for someone to convert from orthodox Christianity to the LDS?

Because we have a much different understanding of what salvation is and means, I answer that it wholly depends on what the individual wants. God has revealed that His gifts offered to man are greater than man can comprehend. If a person wants to claim the greatest gift that God has offered—Exaltation (in LDS vernacular)—then there is an advantage to accepting the revelations of God in our day, for there is no other path (of which I know) outlined by God to it. If a person does not want to claim the ultimate gift—I would say that the salvific advantage of accepting the Restored Gospel diminishes as the glory of the offered gift desired by the person lessens.

Sorry for all the questions. Feel free to ask me any!

No need to apologize for the questions. :D

 

[Mike]

I would not say that it was absolutely unique, although each vision or revelation from God to man is unique in its own right. Such visions and revelations have ever attended God's dealings with his children, so long as faith has been found among them. Nor do I see the relevance in isolating such an experience in relation to the New Testament or to the period in which it was played out and recorded. God's work is one eternal round, is it not?

Each revelation is unique because each person is unique, but God stays the same. And when this uniqueness results in a very different nature of God, or heights above creation to which we may ascend, or that we can baptize someone who's already dead, or to a Savior who was not eternal without beginning or end, I would say it is a significant departure.

I agree with what Christ said to Joseph on that occasion, and were I to disagree with it, upon what basis would I explain to God that I were doing so?

Forgive me, but this is disconcerting to a believer who rejects that Joseph Smith personally spoke with Christ or the angel Moroni. I think it would be delightful if you were to tell Him one day that you anchored yourself in His Word as opposed to Smith's word; that you obeyed His Words in Hebrews 13:9.

I do not aspire to become anything. I believe God, however, when He freely offers me all that He has. I am grateful for the offer of the gift, and strive to be worthy of it.

Nice answer, like a skill politician! Just kidding. But I didn't ask if you do aspire... I asked if you can... In the Mormon theology, can you aspire to be a god of some creation somewhere if you are found worthy? Is this a Mormon doctrine?

Because we have a much different understanding of what salvation is and means

How different is the hope of our eternal existence between Mormons and Christians? Much different? I agree with what you said here. I'm just surprised you said it.

I would say that the salvific advantage of accepting the Restored Gospel diminishes as the glory of the offered gift desired by the person lessens.

Oh, yes. Restored Gospel. The book of Mormon. You believe this comes before the Bible, don't you?

I'd say there is ample cause to say that Joseph Smith went off course from Christianity and kept on driving. But the points that have been made in this thread demonstrate that Mormonism is not Christianity. We do not believe we can be gods of our own planets. We do not believe Christ was just another creation. We see no validation in scripture to baptize the dead, and this has major implications.

I honestly do not mean to be obtuse. Within my community, Mormons are generally very wonderful people with terrific morals. Who could hate on Mormon?

Thank you for your thoughtful responses, LightWithin.

 

[LightWithin]

Each revelation is unique because each person is unique, but God stays the same. And when this uniqueness results in a very different nature of God, or heights above creation to which we may ascend, or that we can baptize someone who's already dead, or to a Savior who was not eternal without beginning or end, I would say it is a significant departure.

Well, you've touched on a lot in here—baptism for the dead, the unchanging nature of God, limits of man's progression, etc. Kind of hard to make a simple, intelligent reply, since I am inclined to feel that so much clarification should precede a good response. So I'll just pass on commenting on this particular segment.

Forgive me, but this is disconcerting to a believer who rejects that Joseph Smith personally spoke with Christ or the angel Moroni. I think it would be delightful if you were to tell Him one day that you anchored yourself in His Word as opposed to Smith's word; that you obeyed His Words in Hebrews 13:9.

Thank you for your positive suggestion. However, I most certainly am not afflicted by unbelief. I would say that I do not believe fewer of God's words, but more... because of the instrumentality of Joseph Smith. I am not afraid of accepting his testimony.

And I understand why you find my comment disconcerting. And I actually think that's good. God wants us to seek, knock, and ask. Were He to coddle us all the time in our often-wayward traditions, we would likely laze around spiritually and all end up damned for sure. Even in the LDS faith He challenges us to remember that He is God, and not His revelations to us.

Nice answer, like a skill politician! Just kidding. But I didn't ask if you do aspire... I asked if you can... In the Mormon theology, can you aspire to be a god of some creation somewhere if you are found worthy? Is this a Mormon doctrine?

Yeah, you can. And I do. I guess my response was from the standpoint often projected onto LDS beliefs by others—that we aspire to something to which we shouldn't aspire—as though we are robbing God or something. So my answer was a little messy. We don't aspire to take from God that which He is not wont to give us. We aspire because He says we can, and because He encourages us to, and because He has cleared the path for us to do so, as any good father would.

All that said, permit me to say that I find your simplifying of what God has offered to be part of the reason so many people find the concept of LDS deification to be ridiculous (to say nothing of unscriptural). God does not promise to toss us a planet, like so many doggy bones. He offers us the opportunity to become what He is, and to do what He does. That is difficult for me to wrap my mind around, much less describe. And I certainly wouldn't boil it down to governance of a paltry planet. That's like raising a child with the promise of a wonderful inheritance, only to give him reign over the tool shed. Sure, it's an inheritance, but hardly anything that would inspire faithfulness or exude unbounded love. God's work is one eternal round that spans the width and breadth of space and time. That is awesome to contemplate. Being offered a chance to enter into a similar eternal round—that is something that truly does inspire me. He is a generous, merciful, loving God, indeed.

How different is the hope of our eternal existence between Mormons and Christians? Much different? I agree with what you said here. I'm just surprised you said it.

Well, I'm not sure I completely understand this follow-up question. Could you expound a bit on it? (I'm afraid that nuances in word usage in our respective religious vernaculars may cause me to answer your question from a misunderstood position)

Oh, yes. Restored Gospel. The book of Mormon. You believe this comes before the Bible, don't you?

Comes before the Bible? Again, I apologize, but I don't follow you exactly. Are you asking if we place the Book of Mormon before the Bible in importance? Could you clarify?

I'd say there is ample cause to say that Joseph Smith went off course from Christianity and kept on driving. But the points that have been made in this thread demonstrate that Mormonism is not Christianity. We do not believe we can be gods of our own planets. We do not believe Christ was just another creation. We see no validation in scripture to baptize the dead, and this has major implications.

I understand what you're saying. I just always find it disappointing. Not being excluded, mind you. But the reasons for which we're excluded.

I honestly do not mean to be obtuse. Within my community, Mormons are generally very wonderful people with terrific morals. Who could hate on Mormon?

LOL, have you ever read our history? Quite frequently those leading the charge to drive out or slaughter the Saints were the very local leaders of the various Christian denominations, to say nothing of who comprised the remaining membership of the mobs. I am glad that things today are not like that.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses, LightWithin.

No prob. God bless.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Again, as in my previous post, who determines what Christianity is and who is Christian? Man.

Christianity is the belief that man, a created being, is incapable of his own salvation as a result of his separation from the Creator. God's laws prove to mankind that he is inherently unable to fulfill these requirements set forth by God. The Law condemns mankind as sinners worthy of God's judgement. Christianity is the belief that salvation is a free gift from God, not dependent on man's works but, by God's grace through faith that Christ accepted the punishment we so rightly deserve; That only through Christ's humility as fully man & divinity as fully God can humanity be redeemed and mankind reconciled to God. These are fundamental, absolute truths of Christianity.

No doubt you believe that only God, not man, has the authority to determine what constitutes sin. That morality is absolute. Surely, you believe that man does not get to decide whether adultery is right or wrong? Likewise, if man does not have the authority to decide what constitutes sin, neither does man have the authority to decide what constitutes God's nature & plan of salvation for mankind.

 

[LightWithin]

Christianity is the belief that man, a created being, is incapable of his own salvation as a result of his separation from the Creator. God's laws prove to mankind that he is inherently unable to fulfill these requirements set forth by God. The Law condemns mankind as sinners worthy of God's judgement. Christianity is the belief that salvation is a free gift from God, not dependent on man's works but, by God's grace through faith that Christ accepted the punishment we so rightly deserve; That only through Christ's humility as fully man & divinity as fully God can humanity be redeemed and mankind reconciled to God. These are fundamental, absolute truths of Christianity.

And I don't disagree with any of them, although I see nothing in here that actually recognizes or gives God credit for His also-of-inestimable-worth gift called "agency" or "free will." It is often mislabeled as man's "works," but that's a whole different discussion.

No doubt you believe that only God, not man, has the authority to determine what constitutes sin.

Indeed.

That morality is absolute.

Absolutely

Surely, you believe that man does not get to decide whether adultery is right or wrong?

True.

Likewise, if man does not have the authority to decide what constitutes sin, neither does man have the authority to decide what constitutes God's nature & plan of salvation for mankind.

Indeed.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

And I don't disagree with any of them

I'm glad to hear that

However, just to make sure we're on the same page:

Do you agree that because man is inherently incapable of not sinning, Jesus' sacrifice covers all sins, without exception?

Do you agree that Jesus can only take the punishment deserved for created finite mortals, because He is the eternally-existing immortal Creator?

 

[LightWithin]

I'm glad to hear that

However, just to make sure we're on the same page:

Do you agree that because man is inherently incapable of not sinning, Jesus' sacrifice covers all sins, without exception?

Absolutely.

Do you agree that Jesus can only take the punishment deserved for created finite mortals, because He is the eternally-existing immortal Creator?

Yes.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Absolutely.

Including sins that are repeatedly committed?

Yes.

So, Jesus did not attain His Godhood by obedience but, has eternally existed as God?

 

[Mike]

LightWithin,

It's me again!

You are upset that we don't consider Mormons to be Christian. I understand that, although I do find it odd that Mormons try without ceasing to convert Christians to Mormonism. We lived next door to some for 3 years, and it never stopped. Every weekend they'd bring different people from their church over and different people tried. They never gave up! That persistence is to be applauded.

Why. Why do they feel so bent on Christians if you claim your very accepting eacother.

LightWithin - Let me ask you a question. Are there any beliefs or doctrines that you would conclude that someone is not a Chrisitian?

 

[LightWithin]

LightWithin,

It's me again!

You are upset that we don't consider Mormons to be Christian.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not upset about in the "upset" sense. It can be a source of frustration from time to time, though. I'm not going to stomp off or anything like that if you don't say "OK, we agree that you're a Christian like us."

I understand that, although I do find it odd that Mormons try without ceasing to convert Christians to Mormonism. We lived next door to some for 3 years, and it never stopped. Every weekend they'd bring different people from their church over and different people tried. They never gave up! That persistence is to be applauded.

Why. Why do they feel so bent on Christians if you claim your very accepting eacother.

Ultimately it is because there is no path in traditional Christianity for man to lay claim on the greatest gift God has offered man—exaltation. I could list many other reasons, but that's the bottom line in the end. And it is both our privilege and duty to preach the gospel that will bring man to this greatest of all gifts, if he will accept it.

LightWithin - Let me ask you a question. Are there any beliefs or doctrines that you would conclude that someone is not a Chrisitian?

If a man does not believe in Christ, or worships Zeus or trees or cows, I would not think he would identify himself as a Christian (and I would agree with him), although if his dealings with his fellowmen exhibited Christ-like love and attributes, I would consider him a Christian soul nonetheless.

If a man believed that Christ were a rock or a pine cone or a hippo, but he still called himself a Christian, then it would start getting a little more difficult to relate.

 

[LightWithin]

Including sins that are repeatedly committed?

The atonement of Christ was infinite. There are no sins that mankind has or ever will commit for which Christ did not suffer and pay the price of justice in full measure.

So, Jesus did not attain His Godhood by obedience but, has eternally existed as God?

We are all co-eternal with God (my belief), including Christ. And I do believe that there was a time when Christ was not God. But it is clear that he was God long before he was born into mortality, for he most certainly is the Creator.

 

[Mike]

Ultimately it is because there is no path in traditional Christianity for man to lay claim on the greatest gift God has offered man—exaltation. I could list many other reasons, but that's the bottom line in the end. And it is both our privilege and duty to preach the gospel that will bring man to this greatest of all gifts, if he will accept it.

So, your reason that Mormonism is preferred among all Christians is the dividing line - Mormons believe they have the capability to be "like God" in that we can aspire to the heights of the heavens and become 'gods' ourselves. This is significant to you. Christians believe in eternity with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit when we will glorified the Lord, and not be glorified. As Christians, we aspire to be humble, but very thankful to our Lord. I have no interest in anyone ever referring to me as "Lord".

If a man does not believe in Christ, or worships Zeus or trees or cows, I would not think he would identify himself as a Christian (and I would agree with him), although if his dealings with his fellowmen exhibited Christ-like love and attributes, I would consider him a Christian soul nonetheless.

If a man believed that Christ were a rock or a pine cone or a hippo, but he still called himself a Christian, then it would start getting a little more difficult to relate.

You say the one who worshiped Zeus, trees and cows would not identify himself as a Christian, but what if he did? Would you agree with him or disagree?

But it seems you've made some limitations in who you deem to be Christians or not. Kinda arbitrary, isn't it? Here are just a few things we disagree with Mormons on:

1. mixed up belief in the Trinity
2. God dwelt on another planet at one point & aspired to be God.
3. Jesus was not eternal with the Father
4. You aspire to be lifted up and be among all the gods who were once people
5. The Book of Mormon is more holy than the Bible
6. Polygamy (yes, they backed off to, only because they had to.)

There are many more I could cite, but I'm way past my bed time. In this six alone, you have enough to determine Mormonism has very different theology, starting out with "Who is God. How did God come to be.