Mormons and what they believe

[toddm]

I have no clue where this story about "LDS Temple workers" came from, and I highly doubt it to have actually occurred.

Well, the story did actually happen because I know the gentleman that is a doctor in archaeology and has spent a good portion of his life in Israel on digs. Here's my question for all LDS members, why are you so quick to dismiss any kind of claims such as this, but you so readily accept the claims of the BOM?

And there are no official links of archeological evidences because the LDS Church itself does not pursue this. The LDS Church chooses to spend its resources on humanitarian aid throughout the world. Any archeological evidences are by those who do so of their own accord.

Ok, so you mean to tell me that with all the resources in the LDS church that they aren't willing to try and verify that they are indeed "the one true church"? I don't put my faith in archaeology, it's in Jesus Christ and what the Bible tells me about him. But my faith is supported by evidence, making it valid. Someone can have faith in the spaghetti monster but if there's no evidence to support it, then it's not very valid is it?

 

[kevkelsar]

I have no clue where this story about "LDS Temple workers" came from, and I highly doubt it to have actually occurred.

Well, the story did actually happen because I know the gentleman that is a doctor in archaeology and has spent a good portion of his life in Israel on digs. Here's my question for all LDS members, why are you so quick to dismiss any kind of claims such as this, but you so readily accept the claims of the BOM?

You have to understand the shear number of ridiculous stories out there about the LDS Church and its members. Many of which have been completely fabricated for whatever reason, or they have been distorted from what actually happened. Just because I doubt what you stated happened, doesn't mean it didn't actually happen. I believe this would fall into our discussion of having proof of what actually occurred. What proof do you have that this happened other than hearsay?

And there are no official links of archeological evidences because the LDS Church itself does not pursue this. The LDS Church chooses to spend its resources on humanitarian aid throughout the world. Any archeological evidences are by those who do so of their own accord.

Ok, so you mean to tell me that with all the resources in the LDS church that they aren't willing to try and verify that they are indeed "the one true church"? I don't put my faith in archaeology, it's in Jesus Christ and what the Bible tells me about him. But my faith is supported by evidence, making it valid. Someone can have faith in the spaghetti monster but if there's no evidence to support it, then it's not very valid is it?

No, the LDS Church does not feel the need to prove anything. Any proof that actually means anything comes from within, the spiritual conversion and personal confirmations from God as to what is true. He is the source of ALL truth. However, to satisfy your question, there is one organization that is part of BYU. The links I have provided go to some of their articles. The Foundation of Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS) may receive minor contributions from the LDS Church (I'm not positive on this), but most come from personal donations of people that support the foundation of their own accord.

http://mi.byu.edu/

 

[toddm]

You have to understand the shear number of ridiculous stories out there about the LDS Church and its members. Many of which have been completely fabricated for whatever reason, or they have been distorted from what actually happened. Just because I doubt what you stated happened, doesn't mean it didn't actually happen. I believe this would fall into our discussion of having proof of what actually occurred. What proof do you have that this happened other than hearsay?

I understand that, and I don't just accept any story that comes by me. But this was a direct encounter, not a third party story. Any way...

No, the LDS Church does not feel the need to prove anything. Any proof that actually means anything comes from within, the spiritual conversion and personal confirmations from God as to what is true. He is the source of ALL truth. However, to satisfy your question, there is one organization that is part of BYU. The links I have provided go to some of their articles. The Foundation of Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS) may receive minor contributions from the LDS Church (I'm not positive on this), but most come from personal donations of people that support the foundation of their own accord.

http://mi.byu.edu/

I agree that God is the source of ALL truth, however, how do you know what is true? By a "religious experience"? Well, if that's the case then Buddists, Muslims, and Hindus must all be right since they have had spiritual experiences confirming that what they believe is "true"! Doesn't the Bible teach that Satan "masquerades as an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14, Galatians 1:6-9)?
Here's my point: Lots of people from all over the world, from all different religions have had "religious experiences" and all feel that what they believe is true. Well, we both know that they can't all be true because of the obvious differences and contradictions among beliefs, so there must be another way of identifying truth other than by merely a subjective experience. You say the Mormon church is the one true church because of a spiritual revelation. I say that the Mormon church is false because of a spiritual revelation. We can't both be right - so how do we now determine what is truth and what is false? How do we now "test everything and hold on to that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)??

 

[kevkelsar]

I agree that God is the source of ALL truth, however, how do you know what is true? By a "religious experience"? Well, if that's the case then Buddists, Muslims, and Hindus must all be right since they have had spiritual experiences confirming that what they believe is "true"! Doesn't the Bible teach that Satan "masquerades as an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14, Galatians 1:6-9)?
Here's my point: Lots of people from all over the world, from all different religions have had "religious experiences" and all feel that what they believe is true. Well, we both know that they can't all be true because of the obvious differences and contradictions among beliefs, so there must be another way of identifying truth other than by merely a subjective experience. You say the Mormon church is the one true church because of a spiritual revelation. I say that the Mormon church is false because of a spiritual revelation. We can't both be right - so how do we now determine what is truth and what is false? How do we now "test everything and hold on to that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)??

I believe what Christ said about knowing what is true and what isn't.

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

In addition, the following verse (with my emphasis added) tells us that the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, will teach us all things.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So, by simply doing the things that God asks us to do, we will know. In addition, the Holy Ghost will teach us all things that God has said. Now, how do we know when the Holy Ghost is teaching us "all things"? I believe Galatians explains quite well how the Spirit, or Holy Ghost, manifests itself to us.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

With all this, there are some verses in the Book of Mormon that teach how to know the truth of all things, as well. When "these things" are mentioned, he is referring specifically to the writings that consist of the Book of Mormon. The second verse, however, also teaches that the Holy Ghost can teach us all things.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

So, I truly believe by following these teachings we can know the truth of all things through the Holy Ghost. By living what is taught as the teachings of God (i.e. the teachings in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and other teachings accepted in the LDS Church as doctrines), by praying to God to let us know, and having the truth manifested to us by the Holy Ghost, we can know what is Truth. For me, there are many teachings within the LDS Church that have been manifested to me as being true that are not taught in other Christian Churches.

 

[toddm]

You basically just re-stated what you've already said and neglected to answer my questions. Allow me to repeat my question - you say that the Holy Spirit has revealed to you that the BOM, LDS church, etc. are true and of God. I say that the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that the BOM is false and Joseph Smith was a false prophet. We both claim that the Holy Spirit has revealed TRUTH to us, yet we have completely contradictory testimonies. SO WHO IS RIGHT?

 

[kevkelsar]

You basically just re-stated what you've already said and neglected to answer my questions. Allow me to repeat my question - you say that the Holy Spirit has revealed to you that the BOM, LDS church, etc. are true and of God. I say that the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that the BOM is false and Joseph Smith was a false prophet. We both claim that the Holy Spirit has revealed TRUTH to us, yet we have completely contradictory testimonies. SO WHO IS RIGHT?

Well, me, of course! ;)

It's the eternal question, I guess. Because I know there are those who would say I am wrong because some things I believe aren't biblical. Yet, that all depends on how certain passages of scripture are interpreted. I can take any of the beliefs that are claimed to not be biblical and give my understanding of scriptures that do show they are biblical. Then we come to a similar question that you have asked: Who has the correct interpretation?

 

[toddm]

You basically just re-stated what you've already said and neglected to answer my questions. Allow me to repeat my question - you say that the Holy Spirit has revealed to you that the BOM, LDS church, etc. are true and of God. I say that the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that the BOM is false and Joseph Smith was a false prophet. We both claim that the Holy Spirit has revealed TRUTH to us, yet we have completely contradictory testimonies. SO WHO IS RIGHT?

Well, me, of course! ;)

It's the eternal question, I guess. Because I know there are those who would say I am wrong because some things I believe aren't biblical. Yet, that all depends on how certain passages of scripture are interpreted. I can take any of the beliefs that are claimed to not be biblical and give my understanding of scriptures that do show they are biblical. Then we come to a similar question that you have asked: Who has the correct interpretation?

You're right. It is the eternal question. And I for one would not want to gamble my eternal destination on the legitimacy of a subjective experience. Surely, you see the problem here. What if I'm right? How do you know for CERTAIN that it was indeed the Holy Spirit that led you to your testimony and not the Deceiver? Is the "burning in your bosom" something that you want to stake eternity on?? Because if we both have completely contradictory spiritual experiences, then our experiences alone cannot be a proper indicator for what is true.

And we're not just talking about varying interpretations of the Bible. The LDS vs. evangelical debate is NOT over how one interprets a couple of Bible passages, rather it is over extra-biblical ideas that are completely foreign to the Bible (like I mentioned in the other thread).

By the way, there is a correct interpretation for all Bible passages and the correct interpretation is revealed by the rest of the Bible. It's improper exegesis to insert a random interpretation into a text w/o any other warrant for it.

 

[kevkelsar]

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a way to know which interpretation is correct? Within the LDS Church, we believe that God continues to call Prophets and Apostles, just like in New Testament times. Why were there Prophets and Apostles? To declare the word of God and correct misinterpretations or incorrect doctrines.

Now, these Prophets and Apostles are/were not just your standard preacher. They receive direct revelation from God, and that's why you can always trust a Prophet or Apostle when they speak in the name of God.

 

[toddm]

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a way to know which interpretation is correct? Within the LDS Church, we believe that God continues to call Prophets and Apostles, just like in New Testament times. Why were there Prophets and Apostles? To declare the word of God and correct misinterpretations or incorrect doctrines.

Now, these Prophets and Apostles are/were not just your standard preacher. They receive direct revelation from God, and that's why you can always trust a Prophet or Apostle when they speak in the name of God.

So, now instead of trusting in a personal subjective feeling, we're supposed to trust someone else's personal subjective feeling? There are prophets in other religions too, so should we listen to them also?

 

[kevkelsar]

The key is finding the true Prophets and Apostles. And, no, I don't blindly follow them, but I do trust their judgment. I treat their teachings just as I did the Book of Mormon and the Bible. Only the Holy Ghost can teach us all things.

 

[toddm]

The key is finding the true Prophets and Apostles. And, no, I don't blindly follow them, but I do trust their judgment. I treat their teachings just as I did the Book of Mormon and the Bible. Only the Holy Ghost can teach us all things.

You're still not answering of how you KNOW that it is indeed the Holy Spirit teaching you these things. You state "I know what is true because the Holy Spirit tells me so"...are you denying the fact that Satan twists truth and makes it seem like truth?? How do you know which "apostles" & "prophets" are true? By the Holy Spirit? Can you explain to me how you don't "blindly follow" the teachings of the "prophets/apostles"?

 

[harry1]

How can a religion be invented close to 800 yrs late by a convicted con man. Joseph Smith is a fraud and there is absolutely no archaeological eveidence to back up Mormonism whereas Christianity does

 

[toddm]

How can a religion be invented close to 800 yrs late by a convicted con man. Joseph Smith is a fraud and there is absolutely no archaeological eveidence to back up Mormonism whereas Christianity does

You forgot a 1 in that number...it was 1800 yrs after Christ.

 

[harry1]

sorry, im whooped from chasing my little one around the house, math skills are a little off today

How can a religion be invented close to 800 yrs late by a convicted con man. Joseph Smith is a fraud and there is absolutely no archaeological eveidence to back up Mormonism whereas Christianity does

You forgot a 1 in that number...it was 1800 yrs after Christ.