Mother of God?

[TonyChanYT]

The term/string "Mother of God" is not written in the Bible. Further, Matthew 12:

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

I'd rather stick to the wording of the Bible.

See also “WOMAN, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

 

[Mungo]

The term/string "Mother of God" is not written in the Bible. Further, Matthew 12:


I'd rather stick to the wording of the Bible.

See also “WOMAN, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

But perhaps you are in denial of the second premise?

 

[Mungo]

I would offer. .

Roman Catholicism with Eastern Orthodox represent the Pharisees with Sadaucesss. . laws as oral traditions of men of men called a law of the fathers called by themselves today apostolical succession of dying mankind ...
no such thing .

A remnant survived the first century reformation that restored the proper form of Government. . men serving a God not seen not served by human hands as a will. .

Kings in Israel the abomination of desolation making the word of God to no efect.

God gave the atheist jews over to do that which they should not desiring (kings in Israel ) the pagan foundation . .out of sight out of mind as in "who beleive in a God not seen reigning over men" God calls them fools .

In Jerimiah 44 the faithless jew demanded a female deity reigning over them a queen of heaven. . his and hers gods to go along with there his and hers towel sets with full consent from thier atheist husbands.
15 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,

Jeriamiah 44: 16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.

17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

They refused to hear and obey the word of God having no interest in spiritual unseen matters and declared the word desolate .We will do whatsoever our own mouth says . Having created the illusion she becomes the new one source of Christian faith a damnable oral tradition oral tradition are not damnable unless they do despite to the fullness of God's grace. Not the grace of a queen of heaven The full price of salvation.

The non venerable are taught only a Queen named, named after our blessed sister in the lord alone fullness of grace the whole price. the rest of the planet an unknow and after they take thier last breath of oxygen must continue to suffer wonder, suffer wonder . . . .when will the end of faith the salvation of one soul come ????. The doctrine of wondering wondering marveling not believing the word

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, (the kingdom of our invisible God is not of this world seen the temporal) that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

A carbon copy of the old testament reformation a false priesthood of men that lord it over the understanding of the non venerable pew sitters .

No hen pecking order (Queen of heaven) in Christianity. . the first will be last

Nothing to do with my post - or the topic.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

But perhaps you are in denial of the second premise?

No. I believe Jesus is God.

 

[Free]

All Catholic/anti-Catholic discussion is to be kept in the Catholic forum.

 

[TonyChanYT]

All Catholic/anti-Catholic discussion is to be kept in the Catholic forum.

Sorry about that. Feel free to relocate this thread to the appropriate forum. Thanks.

 

[Mungo]

All Catholic/anti-Catholic discussion is to be kept in the Catholic forum.

The topic is not specifically Catholic. It's only Mr. G Lee who launched into an anti-Catholic rant. Just delete his post.

 

[Mungo]

No. I believe Jesus is God.

The why don't you accept that Jesus is the Mother of God?
BTW there is an in-depth discussion on this already in the Catholic Forum -

Understanding Mary - Mother of God​

 

[TonyChanYT]

The why don't you accept that Jesus is the Mother of God?

Read my OP. Quote my words and contradict them if you can.

 

[Mungo]

Read my OP. Quote my words and contradict them if you can.

That particular words or phrases are not written in the Bible is a false argument.
The words Incarnation and Trinity are not written in the Bible. But perhaps you don't believe either of them.

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
Can you contradict that argument?

 

[TonyChanYT]

That particular words or phrases are not written in the Bible is a false argument.
The words Incarnation and Trinity are not written in the Bible. But perhaps you don't believe either of them.

I neither believe nor dis-belive them.

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
Can you contradict that argument?

No.

 

[Free]

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
Can you contradict that argument?

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is both God and man.
God is eternal and uncreated.
Therefore, Mary is the mother only of the humanity of Jesus, since God cannot, by definition, have a mother.

 

[GodsGrace]

Moving this to the Catholic Forum so it could be discussed .

 

[GodsGrace]

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is both God and man.
God is eternal and uncreated.
Therefore, Mary is the mother only of the humanity of Jesus, since God cannot, by definition, have a mother.

Hi Free,
As I'm sure you've gone over this many times, I'll just post my thinking.

It's a problem to say that Mary is Not the mother of God.

Jesus had a human mother, but God the Holy Spirit was His Father.

If we say that Mary is Not God's mother, it brings into question who Jesus is, or the nature of Jesus.

If we want to believe that Jesus is God, then we have to believe He was both human and God at Birth,,,,which would debunk your theory.

If He was not God at birth, when did He become God?

IMO, this is a problematic question.

 

[Free]

Hi Free,
As I'm sure you've gone over this many times, I'll just post my thinking.

It's a problem to say that Mary is Not the mother of God.

Jesus had a human mother, but God the Holy Spirit was His Father.

If we say that Mary is Not God's mother, it brings into question who Jesus is, or the nature of Jesus.

If we want to believe that Jesus is God, then we have to believe He was both human and God at Birth,,,,which would debunk your theory.

If He was not God at birth, when did He become God?

IMO, this is a problematic question.

First, I wouldn't say that the Holy Spirit was Jesus's Father; the Father is the Father and the Holy Spirit played a role in bringing about the conception of Jesus.

Second, my point is precisely that Jesus is both God and man, but that his human nature comes from Mary, not his divine nature. To say that Mary is the mother of God, makes it sound like God had a beginning and that his divine nature came from Mary; it would mean that Mary preceded God. I think it is that which brings into question who Jesus is.

Third, believing the doctrine of Mary as the Mother of God has led to other serious errors, such as her immaculate conception and perpetual virginity. It all gets very close to deifying Mary.

Mary is the mother of Jesus, the mother of the God-man, and I think that is where we should leave things so as not to fall into error.

 

[Mungo]

First, I wouldn't say that the Holy Spirit was Jesus's Father; the Father is the Father and the Holy Spirit played a role in bringing about the conception of Jesus.

Second, my point is precisely that Jesus is both God and man, but that his human nature comes from Mary, not his divine nature. To say that Mary is the mother of God, makes it sound like God had a beginning and that his divine nature came from Mary; it would mean that Mary preceded God. I think it is that which brings into question who Jesus is.

Another point regarding Mother of God is that a woman carries a person in her womb, not just a human nature. Mary carried, and gave birth to, the person of Jesus Christ, and that person was God, the second person of the Trinity.

This does not mean Mary is older than God, or that she is the source of her Son’s divinity. She is the Mother of God in that she carried in her womb, and gave birth to, a divine person – Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh”

The definition of Ephesus was not to glorify Mary but to affirm that Jesus’ two natures – divine and human were united in one divine person.

Third, believing the doctrine of Mary as the Mother of God has led to other serious errors, such as her immaculate conception and perpetual virginity. It all gets very close to deifying Mary.

I can't see how believing that Mary is the mother God leads to the Immaculate Conception or Perpetual Virginity unless you deny that the person in Mary's womb was God.

 

[Free]

Another point regarding Mother of God is that a woman carries a person in her womb, not just a human nature. Mary carried, and gave birth to, the person of Jesus Christ, and that person was God, the second person of the Trinity.

That person was God and man, not just God.

This does not mean Mary is older than God, or that she is the source of her Son’s divinity. She is the Mother of God in that she carried in her womb, and gave birth to, a divine person – Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh”

The definition of Ephesus was not to glorify Mary but to affirm that Jesus’ two natures – divine and human were united in one divine person.

One person, yes. My point is only that calling Mary the mother of God is misleading and easily leads to the heresies of Docetism, Apollinarianism, and Monophysitism. Your previous statement--"and that person was God, the second person of the Trinity"--could actually support either of those heresies, as there is nothing to suggest that Jesus was also truly and fully human.

I can't see how believing that Mary is the mother God leads to the Immaculate Conception or Perpetual Virginity unless you deny that the person in Mary's womb was God.

Well, the Immaculate Conception isn't biblical, nor is the Perpertual Virginity, so those have to have a basis somewhere, and where better than believing Mary is the mother of God, which itself isn't clearly biblical.

 

[Mungo]

That person was God and man, not just God.


One person, yes. My point is only that calling Mary the mother of God is misleading and easily leads to the heresies of Docetism, Apollinarianism, and Monophysitism. Your previous statement--"and that person was God, the second person of the Trinity"--could actually support either of those heresies, as there is nothing to suggest that Jesus was also truly and fully human.

I don't think it is misleading.

Well, the Immaculate Conception isn't biblical, nor is the Perpertual Virginity, so those have to have a basis somewhere, and where better than believing Mary is the mother of God, which itself isn't clearly biblical.

All three doctrines have a basis in Scripture.
None of them contradict Scripture.

 

[Mungo]

Mary, Mother of God
"The Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (Theotokos) since according to the flesh she brought forth the Word of God made flesh" (Council of Ephesus, 431 AD)

“What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 487)

Let us therefore start with Jesus. The early centuries of Christianity were marked by controversies over the nature of Jesus Christ. Was he God? Was he man? Was he born human and became God?
The definition of Mary as Theotokos (literally “God bearer”) at the Council of Ephesus in 431 was made in response to a fifth century heresy called Nestorianism which said that Mary did not carry God but only carried Christ’s human nature in her womb.

Nestorians claimed that Mary did not give birth to a unified person but tried to separate Jesus’ human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate persons, one human and one divine in a loose affiliation.

But a woman carries a person in her womb, not just a human nature. Mary carried, and gave birth to, the person of Jesus Christ, and that person was God, the second person of the Trinity.

This does not mean Mary is older than God, or that she is the source of her Son’s divinity. She is the Mother of God in that she carried in her womb, and gave birth to, a divine person – Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh”

The definition of Ephesus was not to glorify Mary but to affirm that Jesus’ two natures – divine and human were united in one divine person.

The logic is:
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of Jesus
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

Scripture Summary
Jesus is God
Jesus Christ is the Word, the second person of the Trinity.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Jn 1:1)

Mary is the mother of Jesus
He assumed human nature (came in the flesh)
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (Jn 1:14)

Where did the Word become flesh? In the womb of Mary
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.” (Lk 1:31).
“God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law” (Gal 4:4).

Mary was the mother of that son. The Word that became flesh, the second Person of the Trinity in human form, though still divine.
“who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.” (Phil 2:6-8)

Therefore Mary is the mother of God
In Lk 1:43 Elizabeth says (while “filled with the Holy Spirit”) And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord (kuriou) should come to me? Several times in chapter 1 Luke uses kurios for God (indeed Mary herself does in verse 38). So Elizabeth calling Mary The mother of my Lord is calling her the mother of my God.

 

[Mungo]

Early Christian witness
The early Church Fathers recognised Mary as the Mother of God. Here are a few quotes from them:

"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Iranaeus - Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Hippolytus - Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

"For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David" (Gregory the Wonderworker Four Homilies 1; 262 AD).

"(Those engaged in the public transport service) came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and Ever-Virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs" (Peter of Alexandria The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria; 305 AD).

"While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled" (Methodius Oration on Simeon and Anna 7; 305 AD).

"We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God" (Alexander of Alexandria Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12; 324 AD).

"The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lectures 10:19; 350 AD).

"Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God" (Ephraim the Syrian Songs of Praise 1:20; 351 AD).

"The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God" (Athanasius The Incarnation of the Word of God 8; 365 AD).

"Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit" (Epiphanius of Salamis The Man Well-Anchored 75; 374 AD).

"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?" (Ambrose of Milan The Virgins 2:2[7]; 377 AD).

This Virgin became a Mother while preserving her virginity;
And though still a Virgin she carried a Child in her womb;
And the handmaid and work of His Wisdom
became the Mother of God
(St Ephraim, Songs of Praise, 1, 20; c. 381 AD)

"If anyone does not agree that Holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead" (Gregory of Nazianz Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101; 382 AD).

And don't tell God's revelation is in Scripture alone. That is not Biblical and a heresy.