Music; inspired from above or from below?

[Imagican]

A basic study of ancient use of music PLAINLY offers the FACT that it has been used for 'religious expression' BEFORE 'modern day' understanding of The Creator. As can clearly be observed EVEN today in primitive cultures in Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and even in the 'religious cerimony' of our own Native American Indians, music in almost EVERY one of these cultures WAS/IS 'religious' in it's very NATURE.

So, this begs the question: WHERE does it's INSPIRATION actually COME FROM? Is there a 'difference' in 'music' inspired from ABOVE, that BEING music that is ACCPETABLE to God in praise, or is it inspired by 'another source'. A source MORE concerned with the 'appeasement of the FLESH'?

And what I would like to discuss of a MORE important nature is HOW would one BE ABLE to tell the difference? If it is to be admitted by those participating that there IS 'Holy music' and there IS 'unholy music', HOW could one TELL THE DIFFERENCE?

MEC

 

[handy]

I remember this debate well, since I was in high-school and college at about the time Christian musicians started to form 'Christian rock' bands. The arguement then was that rock in of itself, the very beat used, was Satanic and therefore could never be used in a "Christian" manner. Then Keith Green came along with 'rock' songs that had lyrics like:

Hear the bells ringing,
They're singing that you can be born again,
Hear the bells ringing,
They're singing Christ is risen from the dead.
The angel up on the tombstone,
Said He has risen, just as He said,
Quickly now, go tell his disciples,
That Jesus Christ is no longer dead.

Joy to the world, He is risen, hallelujah!
He is risen! Hallelujah!
He is risen, hallelujah,
Hallelujah!


obviously not something that Satan would be interested in extolling with the joy and fervor that Keith brought to the proclimation.


If we are to take Genesis seriously, we need to see that all early expression was common to man. Many of these same cultures that you speak of also had sacrifices. We see where sacrifices come from, they started with God slaying animals to cover Adam and Eve and we see Cain and Abel making sacrifices to God. I believe that most of what is common to man (such as religion, music and art) are nothing more than what the first family handed down to the generations.

I'm adding an edit here, to add the most important part of Keith's song.

 

[handy]

Just to add, I don't think there is 'holy' or 'unholy' music. I think there are holy or unholy motivations to use music. God always looks to the heart. But as for how to tell the difference?

Remember when the Pharisee's accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan? And, remember what He said? That if Satan casts out Satan, how can his kingdom survive. If a song or a picture or a photograph brings glory to God, it's a good bet that it wasn't inspired by Satan.

 

[Imagican]

I remember this debate well, since I was in high-school and college at about the time Christian musicians started to form 'Christian rock' bands. The arguement then was that rock in of itself, the very beat used, was Satanic and therefore could never be used in a "Christian" manner. Then Keith Green came along with 'rock' songs that had lyrics like:

Hear the bells ringing,
They're singing that you can be born again,
Hear the bells ringing,
They're singing Christ is risen from the dead.
The angel up on the tombstone,
Said He has risen, just as He said,
Quickly now, go tell his disciples,
That Jesus Christ is no longer dead.

Joy to the world, He is risen, hallelujah!
He is risen! Hallelujah!
He is risen, hallelujah,
Hallelujah!


obviously not something that Satan would be interested in extolling with the joy and fervor that Keith brought to the proclimation.


If we are to take Genesis seriously, we need to see that all early expression was common to man. Many of these same cultures that you speak of also had sacrifices. We see where sacrifices come from, they started with God slaying animals to cover Adam and Eve and we see Cain and Abel making sacrifices to God. I believe that most of what is common to man (such as religion, music and art) are nothing more than what the first family handed down to the generations.

I'm adding an edit here, to add the most important part of Keith's song.

Ok handy.

But a couple of questions:

We DO KNOW and agree that Satan WILL appear in the flesh in the future? And that he will set himself up to be worshiped AS God? Now, since the MAJORITY of Christianity believes that Christ IS God Himself, wouldn't it be fair to assume that upon his 'taking on the flesh' that Satan will indeed mimic himself AS the second coming of Christ?

With these things in mind, HOW can we be assured that the songs that we sing and those that we PROMOTE are ACTUALLY offering PRAISE to Christ and NOT 'the god of this world' who would LOVE for us to THINK he IS Christ? Not stating ANYTHING here. Just asking a 'simple question'.

Now, since we have evidence through the OUTRIGHT admission of some Rock artists that the VERY beat of their songs HAVE come from what they have heard while participating in VOODOO ritual and the like, is it POSSIBLE that 'some music' is OF THE DEVIL and other is FROM God? That the inspiration ITSELF has been offered by a 'principality or power' OTHER THAN the simple mind or heart of the individual who 'creates' the music?

To put it more simply, is it POSSIBLE that the SOUNDS themselves have POWER? For Paul even said that particular sounds ARE able to distinguish the NATURE of that which MAKES the sound.

Example; ever listen to Black Sabbath as a child, (or even today). Ever notice how the MUSIC itself SETS the 'tone of the song'. That NOT ONLY are the lyrics 'devilish' in nature, but the VERY sound of the MUSIC sets the tone FOR the lyrics? How about AC/DC? Van Halen? Led Zepplin? And how about a little of the 'lyrics' of Led Zepplin:

Let the MUSIC BE YOUR MASTER, Will you HEED the Master's call?

Yes there are TWO paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still TIME to change the road YOU'RE on.

And AC/DC:

(I am PROMOTING NOTHING here OTHER THAN AN ATTEMPT AT UNDERSTANDING)


AC/DC - Hells Bells Lyrics

I'm rolling thunder, pouring rain
I'm coming on like a hurricane
My lightning's flashing across the sky
You're only young but you're gonna die
I won't take no prisoners won't spare no lives
Nobody's putting up a fight
I got my bell I'm gonna take you to hell
I'm gonna get ya, satan get ya

Hells bells
Hells bells, you got me ringing
Hells bells, my temperature's high
Hells bells

I'll give you black sensations up and down your spine
If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine
See the white light flashing as I split the night
Cos if good's on the left then I'm sticking to the right
I won't take no prisoners won't spare no lives
Nobody's puttin' up a fight
I got my bell I'm gonna take you to hell
I'm gonna get ya satan get ya

Hells bells
Hells bells, you got me ringing
Hells bells, my temperature's high
Hells bells

Hells bells, satan's coming to you
Hells bells, he's ringing them now
Those hells bells, the temperature's high
Hells bells, across the sky
Hells bells, they're taking you down
Hells bells, they're dragging you down
Hells bells, gonna split the night
Hells bells, there's no way to fight
Hells bells

I think we can ALL agree that these are NOT just INUENDO, these are OUTRIGHT words confirming a FOLLOWING of Satan?

Now, ever HEARD this song? Do YOU believe that Christian Lyrics could be ADDED to THIS MUSIC and that it would THEN BE a 'Christian Song'? Do you believe that the PERSON that wrote the song DID NOT CREATE BOTH, lyrics AND MUSIC?

I'll stop here for comments,

MEC

 

[handy]

I think it is error to suppose that any type of music is inherently evil or of satan. What is evil is the heart of man. Christ came to cleanse the hearts of men, and we sing praises for this. Is our praise to God, or to a false god? If in one's heart, one isn't cleansed, then its probably to a false god. If one's heart is cleansed though by the blood of the Lamb, then this is worth singing about, whatever way one want's to sing.

You know MEC, when I was in college I was sitting with a group of kids that were as earnest as only college kids can be. And the topic of discussion was whether or not there could be ANY kind of praises or songs of worship that could be sung, other than what was in the Book of Psalms. The couple that were trying to convince us all that ONLY what was in the Book of Psalms were proper for worship, were motivated by the same sort of concerns you are setting forth here. Then it was asked, OK, if we can ONLY use the Psalms, then what music could we set them to, for all the music of that era is long gone?

And, that where the discussion breaks down quickly. Because we cannot know with any certainty whatsoever what melodies and harmonies the Psalms that David sang were set to.

Then you have the fact that the Bible clearly tells us that the early church brothers and sisters sang songs of hymns and praises and spiritual songs. (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16) What melodies and harmonies were they using? Was it the same as David's even though these people were singing these songs hundreds of years after David was long dead and buried and they didn't even live in the same country as David, nor spoke the same language as him?

The fact of the matter is, any kind of praise and song can be raised to God with pure lips and holy hands, if God has purified the lips and cleansed the hands.

So, no, I would disagree that the actual beat or sound is in of itself satanic.

You said, "For Paul even said that particular sounds ARE able to distinguish the NATURE of that which MAKES the sound."

Please provide the text to this, I'd like to study it further.

 

[Imagican]

I think it is error to suppose that any type of music is inherently evil or of satan. What is evil is the heart of man. Christ came to cleanse the hearts of men, and we sing praises for this. Is our praise to God, or to a false god? If in one's heart, one isn't cleansed, then its probably to a false god. If one's heart is cleansed though by the blood of the Lamb, then this is worth singing about, whatever way one want's to sing.

OK handy,

But ARE our hearts TRULY 'cleansed'. For IF we LIVE 'for' this world, we ARE enemies of God. No matter WHAT we may 'say'. To simply STATE that we 'believe' in Christ is a pretty WEAK, or even FALSE witness IF we do not LIVE FOR Christ. And HOW are we to LIVE FOR Christ in this day and age WITHOUT partaking of the rudiments of 'this world'?

And this EXACT point is what I am TRYING to make. Due to our 'conscience', MOST are UNWILLING to ADMIT that they LIVE FOR this world. They BELIEVE that it's OK to 'partake' because their 'churches' TEACH them that it's OK. But WHAT does The Word offer us? How many times have you read it and IMMEDIATELY been CONVICTED in your heart for that which you DO that is AGAINST what it offers?

handy, you can rest assured that I am NOT offering ACCUSATION of ANYONE. I am simply TRYING to be honest with MYSELF and others. I can't TELL YOU how OFTEN when I read The Word am I IMMEDIATELY convicted of my sins. Even some that just a few years ago I would have NEVER EVEN RECOGNIZED as sin. And the MAIN reason is that I have ALLOWED the World to BE MY GUIDE. For MOST of my life I had NO Word to guide me. Just the FLESH. And NOW it will take MORE than the REST of my life to even RECOGNIZE much that I had BELIVED for YEARS was OK. Just bear with me here and PERHAPS you will SEE where I am coming from. Just TRY to compare what I have to offer TO THE WORD......................Just TRY is all I ask. Before you condemn me or simply 'ignore' what I have to offer, just LISTEN and SEE if it is NOT PERFECTLY 'in line' with The Word. I'll SHOW YOU.

You know MEC, when I was in college I was sitting with a group of kids that were as earnest as only college kids can be. And the topic of discussion was whether or not there could be ANY kind of praises or songs of worship that could be sung, other than what was in the Book of Psalms. The couple that were trying to convince us all that ONLY what was in the Book of Psalms were proper for worship, were motivated by the same sort of concerns you are setting forth here. Then it was asked, OK, if we can ONLY use the Psalms, then what music could we set them to, for all the music of that era is long gone?

I ask this handy............is music SO important that we MUST 'partake in it'? And is that IMPORTANCE that we PLACE in it, is that HOLY or is it of the FLESH. Is it the CARNALITY that is DRAWN to it or is it the Holy Spirit that DRAWS us to MUSIC. I'm NOT talking about praise of God. I am SIMPLY talking about MUSIC. WHAT makes us INSIST that it's OK. What would make it SO HARD for those that LISTEN to the likes of AC/DC, or Black Sabbath to OPENLY admit that it is OF THE DEVIL? Is it HOLINESS or IS IT THE FLESH that ITCHES for what PLEASES IT? Think about it.........

And, that where the discussion breaks down quickly. Because we cannot know with any certainty whatsoever what melodies and harmonies the Psalms that David sang were set to.

ok OK OK!!!!!!

Believe it or not NOW we are 'getting somewhere':

Because we cannot know with any certainty whatsoever what melodies and harmonies the Psalms that David sang were set to. These are YOUR words.

Now follow me here..............I am TRYING to be as DELICATE with this issue as possible so FORGIVE me if I am UNABLE to put it in the PERFECT words that it NEEDS. But I believe that I am articulate ENOUGH, (along with a bit of GUIDANCE from The Spirit), to convey THE TRUTH.

Here goes:

I'll start with a question AFTER this bit of explanation first.

David WAS a 'man after God's OWN HEART'. I won't DWELL on this here but we DO KNOW that this is TRUTH. We HAVE a pretty GOOD biography of this man. NOT complete, but ENOUGH to KNOW that this man LOVED God. Even though he sinned atrociously at times, he ALWAYS recognized his shortcomings and RESUBMITTED himself to God, asking for forgiveness and ACCEPTING punishment as it was meeted out. He fasted and prayed and in general FOLLOWED the WILL of God. And we KNOW that God REVEALED His will TO DAVID.

Let me ask the question now: Do you think that WE are as DEVOTED to God as David was? Do you BELIEVE that God is REVEALING His WILL to us AS He DID to David? Are WE LIVING FOR God as David DID? Or, are we allowing MORE of the rudiments of this world to INFLUENCE what we BELIEVE we are SUPPOSE to be doing?

All I ask here is that you be HONEST with your answer. I will give you mine first:

I believe that I KNOW God. But I KNOW that I have allowed my family to be MORE important that God. I have allowed myself to be tempted by the rudiments of this world. I do NOT fast. I am A LIAR. To myself and others. I am a 'thief'. I am a murderer. I am an adulterer. I have 'other gods' BEFORE God Himself. I worship idols. I hate my brothers and sisters at times. There have been times that I did NOT offer my love to my mother and father. To tally this up without going on for days. I have broken EVERY commandment EVER offered by God or Christ. And MOST I CONTINUE to break on a daily if not weekly basis.

Now. You would offer that you are appalled by my admission of these things. Let me explain. I would RARELY hessitate to pick up money laying in the street. But in reality, it BELONGS to someone else. For me to 'pick it up and put it in my pocket and MAKE it MY OWN is NOTHING other than stealing and coveting. For I had to COVET that which was NOT MINE first and then STEAL it. Follow me here. EVERY person on this planet IS my brother or sister. The ENTIRE world IS to be as MY HOUSE. I am to offer my love EVEN to my ENEMIES. Now, if you found a dollar bill laying in your 'living room floor', would you pocket it or would you attempt to FIND out WHO it belongs to FIRST. Your son's perhaps, your husbands? Now, WHAT'S the difference in finding it in the street. IF you were to LEAVE it WHERE you found it, the PERSON that it BELONGED to could 'trace their steps' and FIND what they had lost. But if YOU come along and TAKE it, they can NO LONGER find what they have lost. Now is that DOLLAR bill WORTH it? But who wouldn't 'pick it up' and stick it in their pocket.

I know this is turning into a long one but it IS IMPORTANT.

Now, I have HATED my neighbors, the Bible SAYS that this MAKES me a MURDERER. For in my heart I have exhibited the SAME 'emotions' that are in the HEART of a murderer. So, NOW do you see how EASY it is to ADMIT to BREAKING EVERY commandment? And I continue to DO SOME OF THESE things on a 'practical' DAILY basis.

Boy, I'm glad that's out of the way. And 'friends', I have now OPENLY confessed my sins unto you.

Then you have the fact that the Bible clearly tells us that the early church brothers and sisters sang songs of hymns and praises and spiritual songs. (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16) What melodies and harmonies were they using? Was it the same as David's even though these people were singing these songs hundreds of years after David was long dead and buried and they didn't even live in the same country as David, nor spoke the same language as him?

Here we have the SAME question that we NEED to answer HONESTLY. Are we LIVING the same type lives that those of the PAST were living. Or, is it POSSIBLE that we have allowed the rudiments of this world to BLIND us from the TRUTH. Perhaps those of the past WERE able to discern that offered from ABOVE from that offered of this world. I can't SAY that there are NOT those NOW that are able. But I can OPENLY admit that I AM living in this world and partaking of MANY of it's pleasures that those of the past WEREN'T.

The fact of the matter is, any kind of praise and song can be raised to God with pure lips and holy hands, if God has purified the lips and cleansed the hands.

and THAT IS THE KEY. IF. That is NOT A SMALL IF. It's a REALLY BIG ONE. The words SOUND good. But are you TRULY that confident that YOU KNOW that the songs of paise you sing are NOT tainted by this world? I am NOT accusing, just asking that you be HONEST with YOURSELF.

So, no, I would disagree that the actual beat or sound is in of itself satanic.

Don't CUT YOURSELF OFF YET. Let us 'speak of these things' FIRST, before you 'make up your mind'. For ONCE you 'make up your mind' there is little that EVEN YOU can do to 'change it'. it took that actual INTERVENTION of Christ Himself to 'change' Saul. Don't do THAT to yourself.

You said, "For Paul even said that particular sounds ARE able to distinguish the NATURE of that which MAKES the sound."

Please provide the text to this, I'd like to study it further.

1 Corinthians 14:

[6] Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
[7] And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
[8] For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
[9] So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
[10] There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
[11] Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Now there will be MANY that will attempt to offer that this is taken out of context. While it IS in reference to the misuse of tongues, it STILL offers TRUTH concerning the distinction of SOUND. Read it and SEE if it does not only offer this 'distinction', but compare it to OTHER 'things' and see if it does NOT ring JUST AS TRUE. It takes NO STRETCH of the IMAGINATION to read INTO this ANYTHING that RELATES. The sayings of Paul are TRUE here and NOT ONLY as it relates to tongues but ANYTHING that 'makes noise'. Read it and SEE.

MEC

 

[handy]

You really seem to be missing the point regarding David. David was a murderer, an adulterer, and subject to depression. He was a man just as you are. In answer to your question, YES, YES ABSOLUTLELY YES! we are living the same type of lives as those living when Paul instructed the Ephesians and the Colossians. If anything, things might be a bit better. While we're still a bloodthirsty lot, we tend to let Hollywood fake the bloodletting rather than sit in the Colosseum and cheer while watching folks die. There is no temptation but that which is common to man. You are no better nor no worse than pretty much anyone else that has walked this planet.

And, yes, you are indeed taking 1 Corinthians 14 out of context if you are trying to make it say that there is anything inherently evil or satanic about certain sounds. All Paul is doing here is to say that tongues, unless there is a interpretation, cannot be accurately understood, just as a call to battle, unless the trumpeter plays the correct notes, would not be understood. Don't over-spiritualize this. The notes to "Mary Has a Little Lamb", when played in the key of "C" are E D C D E E E, D D D, E G G. If I were to play E E C E D F F G, F A B, E C D, nobody would understand what I was playing. When speaking with our tongues, we need to speak in a manner that others understand what we are speaking of. If we speak in an unknown tongue, then there needs to be an interpretation. Otherwise it comes out gibberish. That's all there really is to the passage.

MEC, you bring to my mind this Scripture, and I hope that you will take what it says to heart:

Matthew 25:14-30
For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves, and entrusted his possessions to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another, two and to another, one, each according to his own ablility; and he went on his journey.
Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
But he who recieved the one talent went away and dug in the ground, and hid his master's money.
Now after a long time the master of those slaved came and settled accounts with them. And the one who had recieved the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, "Master, you entrusted the five talents to me; see, I have gained five more talents."
His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things, enter into the joy of your master."
The one also who had received the two talents came up and said, "Master, you enterusted to me two talents, see I have gained two more talents."
His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master."
And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed. I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground; see, you have what is yours."
But his master answered and said, "You wicked lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I scattered no seed. Then you out to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have recieved my money back with interest.
Therefore, take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents."

We need to take the blessings the Lord gives us, and yes, this includes the blessing of creativity, of music and art, and use them to multiply the blessings for the glory of God. We should not, we cannot, hide our blessings away, out of fear of God's wrath. And, we cannot, should not make the same mistake that the Pharisee's made: Out of zeal to never commit any sin at all, they wound up committing the most grievous of sins, rejection of Christ and the overflowing, abundant life He freely offers to us.

 

[Imagican]

You really seem to be missing the point regarding David. David was a murderer, an adulterer, and subject to depression. He was a man just as you are. In answer to your question, YES, YES ABSOLUTLELY YES! we are living the same type of lives as those living when Paul instructed the Ephesians and the Colossians. If anything, things might be a bit better. While we're still a bloodthirsty lot, we tend to let Hollywood fake the bloodletting rather than sit in the Colosseum and cheer while watching folks die. There is no temptation but that which is common to man. You are no better nor no worse than pretty much anyone else that has walked this planet.

Oh, my dear handy, Christ stated to even THINK about having sex with someone is to DO IT IN YOUR HEART. The Romans and their colloseum NEVER even DREAMED of the depravity that we have created in 'theatrics'. The Jason Vorhees MURDERING for the simple SAKE of MURDER. At least the Romans had a POINT. It was ALWAYS the ENEMY that died. In our movies we MAKE the DEPRAVED the HERO. We revel in 'deperate housewives and their illicite affairs. We revel in the 'average joe' that decides to become a murdering crystal meth maker and distributor. We think Custer was a HERO, and praise people like BUSH for the MURDER of innocent lives that have NOTHING to do with ANYTHING other than a DESIRE to LIVE their LIVES unobstructed.

As I have already offered, David fasted and PRAYED for THREE DAYS without STOP for the LIFE of his illegitimate SON. He BEGGED God to build His temple. He BEGGED that God TAKE HIS LIFE in order to 'save those of his PEOPLE' that were DOOMED because of HIS sin. He SLEW Goliath with a CHILD's TOY. He had FAITH that MOST of us could NEVER DREAM OF................................ pardon me, was I ranting?

And, yes, you are indeed taking 1 Corinthians 14 out of context if you are trying to make it say that there is anything inherently evil or satanic about certain sounds. All Paul is doing here is to say that tongues, unless there is a interpretation, cannot be accurately understood, just as a call to battle, unless the trumpeter plays the correct notes, would not be understood. Don't over-spiritualize this.

No no my dear, NOTHING 'over spiritulized' here. Just because you 'choose' not to SEE that EVEN though this WAS concerning TONGUES, that does NOT alter the TRUTH contained in the words of Paul concerning PROPHECY, Revelation, etc.......... Either the SOUND of something HAS a DISCERNABLE sound or it DOESN'T. That IS NOT confined to TONGUES. IS IT? The notes to "Mary Has a Little Lamb", when played in the key of "C" are E D C D E E E, D D D, E G G. If I were to play E E C E D F F G, F A B, E C D, nobody would understand what I was playing. When speaking with our tongues, we need to speak in a manner that others understand what we are speaking of. If we speak in an unknown tongue, then there needs to be an interpretation. Otherwise it comes out gibberish. That's all there really is to the passage.

And WHAT IF, I play SOUNDS that YOU ARE UNABLE to discern whether they are HOLY or UNHOLY? Is there REALLY that much of a 'stretch here' that you CAN'T see the SIGNIFICANCE of what is stated? You have ALREADY stated that even YOU questioned whether the SOUNDS that we 'create' NOW are the SAME as those that were created by King David. Come on, Don't 'give up' on it NOW.

MEC, you bring to my mind this Scripture, and I hope that you will take what it says to heart:

Matthew 25:14-30
For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves, and entrusted his possessions to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another, two and to another, one, each according to his own ablility; and he went on his journey.
Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
But he who recieved the one talent went away and dug in the ground, and hid his master's money.
Now after a long time the master of those slaved came and settled accounts with them. And the one who had recieved the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, "Master, you entrusted the five talents to me; see, I have gained five more talents."
His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things, enter into the joy of your master."
The one also who had received the two talents came up and said, "Master, you enterusted to me two talents, see I have gained two more talents."
His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master."
And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed. I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground; see, you have what is yours."
But his master answered and said, "You wicked lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I scattered no seed. Then you out to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have recieved my money back with interest.
Therefore, take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents."

We need to take the blessings the Lord gives us, and yes, this includes the blessing of creativity, of music and art, and use them to multiply the blessings for the glory of God. handy, HOW can you TELL me that ANYTHING that we are ABLE to DO is a 'blessing from God'. There are those that are talented prostitutes, whore mongers, drunkards, theives, con-men, FALSE PROPHETS. Are these TALENTS 'blessings from God'? We should not, we cannot, hide our blessings away, out of fear of God's wrath. And, we cannot, should not make the same mistake that the Pharisee's made: Out of zeal to never commit any sin at all, they wound up committing the most grievous of sins, rejection of Christ and the overflowing, abundant life He freely offers to us.

Their BIGGEST sins were the MAKING of their OWN laws. That and CHOOSING to be HONORED instead of offering the HONOR to GOD ALONE. Empty graves. Pretty on the outside from the care that was placed upon them. But INSIDE, just HOLES full of 'dried up bones'. PRETENDING to BE what they told OTHERS that THEY sould be. There IS a 'difference here'.

Our lives are ONLY able to BE FILLED with ABUNDANT life IF that LIFE that we live is FILLED with Christ and His Father. We were NEVER promised AMUSEMENT, contentment in the WORLD, PLEASURE in the world, HAPPINESS supplied by OUR OWN MEANS or that of OTHERS that is SO superficial as MUSIC or ART. Actually we have been told that 'we', (those that accept and follow Christ), WOULD BE ENEMIES of this WORLD. That the WORLD would HATE us for the WISDOM that we have been OFFERED.

Do you HONESTLY believe that a 'rock' concert is ANYTHING other than a 'church of Satan' with it's congregation HAPPILY screaming HELL YES as they offer the sign of the witches in DEVOTION of the MEN on the stage SINGING praises to SATAN? Come now handy. I KNOW that you HAVE to KNOW enough of the world to REALIZE that; not only have we been TOLD that it's LOST, but you MUST be able to recognize it?

Do you HONESTLY believe that WE have been BLESSED with CREATIVITY? That when we 'create' that we are doing ANYTHING other than ATTEMPTING to usurp the Authority of God? WHO IS THE "Creator"? WHO deserves ALL the GLORY FOR CREATION? Please handy, please tell me that YOU GET IT?

Please don't take this personal, (not meant to be'), but here goes;

WHAT do you THINK WE are able to CREATE that IS RIGHTEOUS? Honestly? Has not God created ALL that CAN be righteous? For even the 'good' that WE do is but FILTHY RAGS to our 'Creator'.

There is NOTHING NEW under the sun. NOTHING. What we THINK is new is simply that which we have ONLY RECENTLY discovered. But to God it is NOT NEW.

Now, name ONE 'thing' that WE are ABLE to 'create' that would IMPRESS THE 'Creator'? Just ONE?

handy, I am NOT offering accusation against ANYONE any MORE than MYSELF. But understanding is CRUCIAL for us to even BEGIN to please our Father.

Let me ask this: What did Satan DO that 'brought about his FALL'? He wanted to BE God, but what did he DO that 'brought about his FALL'? How about this: Instead of FOLLOWING his CREATOR, he decided to BE THE CREATOR. Since the TRUTH had ALREADY been 'created', that ONLY LEFT HIM WITH BECOMING THE CREATOR OF LIES. The FIRST ACTOR of sorts. He painted a PICTURE in which HE WAS GOD. Carved a sculpture of HIMSELF and has done EVERYTHING within his power to have MANKIND worship it. He has played music that MOVES our VERY hearts to LONG to CONTINUE in this WORLD. Longing to STAY IN IT for ETERNITY. Reveling in it's delicacies that are created by the HANDS of MEN rather than SEEKING that 'created' by God Himself: righteousness, and grace, truth and above all LOVE. TRUE love that transends this fading planet and it's MATERIAL temptations.

HOW many TRUE 'creators' do we HAVE? NO, I don't MEAN people able to DUPLICATE that which has ALWAYS existed in ONE realm or the other, the question is HOW MANY 'TRUE CREATORS' have we? And what IS a 'man' TRYING to 'create' when he PERFORMS 'artistic expression'? Is it REALLY holy? Is it REALLY a 'blessing from God'? Then WHY do we, (those that observe the creation of our brothers and sisters), heap UNDO praise upon these. For IF their abilities TRULY ARE 'blessings', then it is GOD who deserves the GLORY. Yet we make the 'creators of music, art of all sorts, RICH, FAMOUS, BIGGER THAN LIFE. WHY? For there is NOTHING that WE are ABLE to DO that is ANYTHING other than FILTHY RAGS to God!!!!

Forgive me. I am NOTHING if not passionate in the defense of My God. I cannot HELP but PLACE HIM in the prominent possition in my life and HOPE to be able to offer this understanding to others. He didn't give me this information and understanding to 'hoard' or KEEP to myself.

And handy, imagine those of the past that HEARD the words of the PROPHETS. Reacon that those that HEARD these words OFFERED by the PROPHETS of God FELT the SAME way that the WORLD feels about the 'words' that I offer RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE? Hmmmmmmm.......'nothing NEW under the sun'. Get it?

MEC

 

[Vic C.]

I went to see Casting Crowns Saturday night. They were great. :angel:

chorus (Voice of Truth)
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
The voice of truth says, "Do not be afraid!"
The voice of truth says, "This is for My glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth

...and I'm going to see Switchfoot in May.

bridge (Dare you to move)
Maybe redemption has stories to tell
Maybe forgiveness is right where you fell
Where can you run to escape from yourself?
Where you gonna go?
Where you gonna go?
Salvation is here

So there! :P

 

[handy]

chorus (Voice of Truth)
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
The voice of truth says, "Do not be afraid!"
The voice of truth says, "This is for My glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth

This pretty much sums it up.

MEC, I'm only going to add this and then bow out of this discussion altogether:

You started out by asking how one can tell the difference between 'holy' and 'unholy' music. A person who is abiding in the Spirit really wouldn't struggle with the issue all that much.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

If the spirit you are listening to is causing this much confusion for you my friend, perhaps you should test that spirit.

 

[Devekut]

Handy,

This disucssion is ridiculous and marked by an insane and excessively puritanical theology.

If music (or art) with lyrics (or images) that promote the glory of God and Christian values, can be judged, regardless of its obvious and clear meaning, to be "inspired by Satan"....by what assurance do any of these people even accept the Holy Scripures as holy and inspired and, instead, not the "clever" mechanisms of the devil?

This fear of human creativity is to limit an incredible gift of God, who is Himself the Supreme Artist.

 

[GraceBwithU]

MEC,
I'm sorry but your extreme views of art and music are just that, they are extreme. As handy said I also have no problem discerning what music I should listen to or not. If I am listening to any music I get an immediate feeling inside my soul when I should not be listening to it.

God Bless you MEC

 

[GraceBwithU]

Handy,

This disucssion is ridiculous and marked by an insane and excessively puritanical theology.

If music (or art) with lyrics (or images) that promote the glory of God and Christian values, can be judged, regardless of its obvious and clear meaning, to be "inspired by Satan"....by what assurance do any of these people even accept the Holy Scripures as holy and inspired and, instead, not the "clever" mechanisms of the devil?

This fear of human creativity is to limit an incredible gift of God, who is Himself the Supreme Artist.

amen

 

[Imagican]

Handy,

This disucssion is ridiculous and marked by an insane and excessively puritanical theology.

If music (or art) with lyrics (or images) that promote the glory of God and Christian values, can be judged, regardless of its obvious and clear meaning, to be "inspired by Satan"....by what assurance do any of these people even accept the Holy Scripures as holy and inspired and, instead, not the "clever" mechanisms of the devil?

This fear of human creativity is to limit an incredible gift of God, who is Himself the Supreme Artist.

My point EXACTLY. How are we to LIMIT the Glory that is to ONLY be offered to GOD and Him ALONE if we OURSELVES attempt to BE THE 'creators'? IF we ARE to 'offer' the 'fruit' of the Spirit through our WORKS, HOW can our WORKS be an ATTEMPT to MIMIC the ONE thing that SEPARATES God from ANYTHING else? For the DISTINGUISHING FACTOR that separates HIM from ALL else IS "CREATION".

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Extreme? Perhaps. But what we HAVE been offered WOULD be considered EXTREME when discerned from the 'understanding of this world'. As thoughout the history of man's relationship with God, I am QUITE sure that EACH time that He offered His WILL to HIS people through His prophets; there were LIKELY MANY that viewed this information AS EXTREME.

Once again, there are those that refuse to DISCUSS this issue other than to THROW insults and instead of responsible debate, would rather INSIST that THEIR theology is ABOVE or MORE acceptable than that of ANYONE else.

I have YET to 'attack ANYONE', but it seems that there is a 'particular' SECT that is INSISTANT upon not ONLY disagreement, but the use of insult in their ATTEMPTS to stiffle ANYTHING that disagrees with their understanding. And these would attack the Spirit of others? Hmmmmm.......

Folks, there is Spirit, and there is FLESH. One concerns that which is pure and holy, and the other deals EXCLUSIVELY with 'this world'. I would ask this? Is there any among us able to discern the DIFFERENCE? And, if so, does MUSIC appease WHICH. That which is Spirit, or that which is FLESH?

I have PERSONALLY witnessed those that have committed attrocious crimes against The Spirit and the ONLY explanation that could be offered is that the SEED that was 'planted', that GREW into the actual commission of their acts WAS the music that they allowed into their hearts and minds. Or the MOVIES that they allowed to have 'dominion' over their spirit. Are there truly those that FOLLOW in Spirit that are COMPLETELY blind to this TRUTH?

It's one thing to disagree with what is being offered here. It's another to 'be in denial'. For one COMPLETELY consumed WITH The Spirit, I am quite sure that these would BE IMMUNE to the wiles of the devil. But for the REST of us, that is NOT the case. For we have been WARNED that we MUST put on the WHOLE armour of God to defend ourselves. And IF this IS TRUE, then not ONLY would it be required to 'put it on', but to WEAR IT EVERY second of EVERY MINUTE, of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year............. Are you 'good folk' of the opinion that this is WHAT 'you' DO?

Sorry, but I am but a lowly sinner. Often UNABLE to BE what I have been LED to be EVERY SECOND of my life. I struggle DAILY with temptation. I am forced to drop to my knees over and over THROUGHOUT each day and ASK to BE FORGIVEN for the sins of my heart. Alas, I am but one that ATTEMPTS to follow in Spirit. I guess I have just NOT reached the MATURITY in Christ that the rest of 'you guys' have. Guess I haven't yet READ enough, or TRULY submitted myself to God. Otherwise, I would NEED be 'like you folks'. Able to CLEARLY see the difference of the rudiments of this world and those THINGS that have been offered HOLY and pure from ABOVE. Forgive me for being 'such a babe' in Christ that my understanding is still SO tainted by 'this world'.

I apologize to ANY that I may have inadvertently offended with such 'childish' understanding, (or lack thereof). Guess that I'm really NOT much of a 'follower' of Christ. Just another 'lost soul' attempting to 'fool myself and others' into BELIEVING that I am 'something' that I am NOT. I guess THAT's why Christ has chosen 'you good folks' to attempt to 'set me straight' with your wisdom and understanding. To 'show me the way' per se.

I have attempted to offer ONLY what I am ABLE. I have used every means at my disposal in an 'attempt' at offering understandning of this 'issue'. And each and every time I find 'TOTAL' denial. I just wonder..................

Let's try this: Is the WORLD 'closer' to God NOW than it was,,,,,,,,,let's say, five hundred years ago? And then the next question would be; how about three hundred years ago, two, one, heck, FIFTY years ago?

If one is ABLE to be TRUTHFUL concerning the question, it becomes APPARENT that with EACH successive generation MORE AND MORE of the WORLD is accepted INTO THEIR HEARTS than that PREVIOUS. Just as Adam and Eve were created PURE and CHOSE to LOOSE that 'purity' through their ACCEPTANCE of that which is CONTRARY to 'purity', so too has each generation become MORE 'loving' of the 'things' of 'this world'.

From the Word we can PLAINLY see that there came a 'time' AFTER the 'creation' of Adam and Eve, that man's heart became EVIL continually. That instead of 'coming CLOSER to God', they veered further and further from His instruction and LOVE. We KNOW what the 'end' result was. And we KNOW what the NEXT result WILL BE.

Do you HONESTLY 'believe' that God is 'going to' destroy a 'world' FULL of 'good people'? Funny, but that IS 'exactly' what He is 'going to Do'. He IS going to destroy a 'world full' of 'self-righteous' people who 'think' that they are 'good'. But the truth is, there is ONLY ONE THAT IS GOOD. And the feeble rudiments of our 'ATTEMPTING to BE God' are but 'filthy rags' in His eyes.

I can see that this is a 'subject' that CAN'T be discussed in such an open forum. That to even attempt to offer ANYTHING that takes more than 'one bite' is simply LOST on deaf ears. That there are just TOO many from TOO many 'different' places in their walk to 'even listen' to that which is even REMOTELY 'deeper' than; 'Jesus loves You'.

So I will close with that: 'Jesus loves you'. And He wants NOTHING more than for us to BE conformed to that which IS holy. For us to live IN love and offer IT freely to any and all of God's 'Creation'. Saving the BEST PART of it FOR 'The Creator' who IS our loving and deserving Father. I guess if THIS message can be conveyed and accepted, it MAY be enough, given time, for those that ACCEPT it to 'grow'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Vic C.]

I can see that this is a 'subject' that CAN'T be discussed in such an open forum. That to even attempt to offer ANYTHING that takes more than 'one bite' is simply LOST on deaf ears. That there are just TOO many from TOO many 'different' places in their walk to 'even listen' to that which is even REMOTELY 'deeper' than; 'Jesus loves You'.

No, it's not that MEC. It's more apparent that your message be brought to site where they are actually listening to the likes of the bands you mentioned. Music is not our Master and I know you know that. For me music is a tool to be mastered, as is any God-given talent. It's also meant to be enjoyed and not in any negative way. That's the difference between the secular world and the called out ones. We do exhibit discernment, according to what I've read so far.

Music in and of itself, is neutral. What Man does with it determines it's source of inspiration, rather man's source of inspiration. Though there are exceptions to that as well.

But I will say there is no need to belittle the members by suggesting they are shallow.

quote= (That there are just TOO many from TOO many 'different' places in their walk to 'even listen' to that which is even REMOTELY 'deeper' than; 'Jesus loves You')

I'm concerned; is it really your mission to get us to think and "worship" rightly as you do or are you going through a spiritual crisis and need some positive affirmation?

 

[Imagican]

Spiritual crises? Perhaps. But none ANY DIFFERENT than that being experienced by THE ENTIRE world in which we live.

Vic, If the very angels in heaven REJOICE each and every time one COMES to God through His Son, can you IMAGINE the 'SORROW' they feel EACH and EVERY TIME one is LOST?

We haven't even been able to come to a 'conclusion' concerning WHAT music IS yet, so we certainly haven't been able to make rational decisions concerning it's NATURE so far as 'good' or 'bad'.

Do you HONESTLY 'think' that NO ONE on this forum listens to ANY music other that what the 'churches' have TAUGHT them is OK? Come on, my brother.

We have a station here in Orlando: Z88 that CLAIMS to BE a 'Christian' station. It plays MUSIC that is IMPOSSIBLE to separate from that played on 'rock stations', or 'rap stations' or 'top 40 stations. And it is APPARENT to 'anyone' able to discern, that MUCH of it is SECULAR, much of it is vague, much of it is even outright FOOLISHNESS. Now HOW does one 'discern the difference' between that which is TRULY Holy, and that which is COMPLETELY deceptive in it's 'presentation'? We KNOW that Satan IS the Father of LIes. Are you telling me that you DON'T believe that he is ABLE to 'use music' TO HIS ADVANTAGE? To TEACH a 'laxing' of that which we SHOULD NOT allow ourselves to ACCEPT? Values, beliefs, acceptance of that which is NOT "Holy"?

Vic, there are STILL people right this very minute that BELIEVE that the movie The Passion was 'truth'. There are STILL people to this day that 'believe' the movie 'The Ten Commandments' is an ACTUAL portrayal of The Bible. Now, YOU may be able to discern the 'difference', but what about those that ARE NOT mature enough in their 'walk' to BE ABLE to discern the TRUTH concerning that which they are 'exposed' to? Are we NOT our brothers keepers? Are we NOT to attempt to KEEP our brothers and sisters FROM stumbling? Now, can you honestly SAY that music CANNOT cause one to 'stumble'?

Music IS Spiritual. That has been KNOWN since as far back as we can TRACE it. The Greeks were SO aware of the IMPORTANCE Of music SPIRITUALLY that they even passed LAWS to regulate it's 'creativity'. Music has LED nations to rebel against authority. It has inspired COUNTLESS attitudes and even DESTROYED nations. It is ONE POWERFUL form of media that should NOT be 'taken lightly'. And I can't believe that there are SO MANY that have NO conception of it's influence.

I am simply here to 'point it out' to those that MAY not have been GIVEN any guidance or understanding concerning this 'form of art'. That SO MANY are willing to DEFEND it so vehemently SHOULD be a 'warning to ANY and ALL' that have ANY understanding.

Is JEWELRY 'ok' to wear Vic? Is is OK to adorn oneself with God and silver? According to the PEOPLE of this world that answer is YES. Now, what does SCRIPTURE offer concerning this 'type' of behavior. I'll leave you with that one.

MEC

 

[Rick W]

Well, there go the crosses worn in genuine belief. There go the crosses pastors, preachers, chaplains wear on their lapels and there goes the ephod of the OT.

Exodus 25:7 Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.

Song of Solomon 1:10 Thy cheeks are comely with rows of jewels, thy neck with chains of gold.
Song of Solomon 1:11 We will make thee borders of gold with studs of silver.



I believe it's the intent that God looks upon for even He bestows ornaments and jewelry onto the one He loves. Jerusalem. But, "she" trusted in the adornment given and not in God. Therein lies the difference MEC.

Now, what does SCRIPTURE offer concerning this 'type' of behavior. I'll leave you with that one.

Ezekiel 16:10 I clothed thee also with embroidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.
Ezekiel 16:11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.
Ezekiel 16:12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
Ezekiel 16:13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and embroidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
Ezekiel 16:14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 16:15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

 

[Imagican]

Potluck,

If you will read ALL the scripture that you offered you will PLAINLY SEE that God is offering REBUKE here, NOT an offering that this 'type' of behavior is 'righteous'.

Do you 'believe' that JUST because a 'minister', 'pastor', or 'bishop' DOES that which is AGAINST the will of God that it's OK for the REST of us to FOLLOW IT?

I can show you where these SAME people that wear these 'supposed' ITEMS of their 'faith' are committing MURDERS, adultery, STEALING from their congregations, etc............. Now IF these were TRUE 'signs' of their FAITH, would it EVEN be POSSIBLE that they could COMMIT such ACTS while WEARING these 'symbols'?

Talk is 'cheap', but to WALK THE WALK takes MORE than 'talk'. From what I see, these symbols are 'WISHFUL THINKING'. An 'attempt' to FOOL others into BELIEVING that those that 'wear' them ARE 'something' that they ARE NOT. HIDING 'behind' such symbols are EVERY depravity that EXISTS.

Now, wouldn't it be MORE purdent to offer 'as a symbol' THE EXAMPLE that we have been offered to FOLLOW? That our 'LOVING of our neighbors' and EVEN OUR ENEMIES, BE a MUCH more suitable symbol? Then there would be NO ability to ATTEMPT to 'hide behind a FALSE symbol'.

Here's a question to all that REFUTE EVERYTHING that I offer concerning this issue of 'art' and 'symbolism':

Do you BELIEVE that Christ WORE 'symbols' of His Faith? Jewelry? fancy clothing? expensive shoes? a RING to signify His POSITION? How about Paul? Reacon HE wore 'symbols' of HIS STATUS? Peter? Timothy? John? And weren't THESE the VERY ONES that we have been TOLD to emulate in OUR WALK?

Look, I am NOT here to CONDEMN ANYONE. I am simply attempting to encourage one to SEARCH their OWN hearts. IF you are CONTENT with the 'lives' that you live, the WAY in which you take steps in your walk, then NOTHING that I have offered here SHOULD be ABLE to 'ruffle a SINGLE FEATHER'. Yet I continually observe a bit of 'anger' in the tone of those that 'refute what I offer'. Sarcasm, belittlement, even name calling. WHY? Why could such a 'supposed BENIGN concept' BE so CONTEMPTABLE to those that CLAIM Christ AS their Savior? If my words are NOT 'truth', then how do they bring SO MUCH CONTEMPT?

I am offering NOTHING other than what The Word BASICALLY states ITSELF. Perhaps a 'deeper' understanding of it, but NOTHING that is NOT already THERE For ANYONE to SEE.

ALL of the HONOR, ALL of the GLORY, EVERYTHING that is to be offered in WORSHIP 'BELONGS to God' and WHO He has personally CHOSEN to receive such. ANY that is NOT offered in THIS respect is UN-Holy.

I guess it's time for a NEW thread. Does ANYONE actually UNDERSTAND the 'feedom' that we have been given? It's NOT freedom TO sin. It was FREEDOM from the PREVIOUS LAW of DEATH to the sinner. That DOESN'T mean that we are FREE to SIN. If ANYTHING it means that we should TRY harder to live for God through His Son. We have NOT been given a 'free pass' to DO 'whatever' we CHOOSE. We have been given a HIGHER commission. For in the past, we were ONLY required to 'live by the law'. The law offered NOTHING about LOVING ONE's ENEMIES. NOTHING of 'turn the other cheek'. NOTHING of BEING our 'brothers keepers'. The NEW covenant requires MORE of us than EVER.

God had HOPED that there would be 'some' able to 'grow up' into His Love. Instead, it seems that most have REVERTED BACK into being 'babes'. Paul STATED that NOTHING was 'against' the law anymore, (for the FINALITY of the WRITTEN law has been abolished), but he ALSO completed this offering with the STATEMENT that we are NOT 'free to SIN', through the NEW covenant, and that we are MORE responsible NOW than those that LIVED under the LAW. But, of course, that is ONLY in reference to those who God has written His law INTO the HEARTS of

This is NOT about WHO is 'right' or WHO is 'wrong'. It's an issue of WHAT. Do we TRULY understand the 'nature' of 'art'? Are we even CAPABLE of the discernment of that which is HOLY and that which is NOT, concerning this issue? I am NOT 'holier' than ANYONE else? I can ASSURE you. But NOT 'being' completely HOLY does NOT prevent me FROM understanding. We even have example that Christ offered concerning those NOT of God's people: His statements concerning FAITH. He offers that He experienced faith of the GENTILES that was GREATER than ALL of those that He had observed in HIS OWN PEOPLE. Doesn't this MEAN something folks? it SURELY does. It offers that EVEN those that are NOT living FOR Him are OFTEN able to SEE what is 'right' or what is 'wrong'. I can point out scripture in Romans that offers this SAME concept over and over again.

And, in order to FOLLOW the 'will of God', DON'T we HAVE to have 'understanding FIRST'?

MEC

MEC

 

[Rick W]

MEC, are you a purist or something?
I'll wager you are much better dressed than Jesus, Paul, Peter, Timothy or John. I'll wager you don't have to rely on strange households for a meal or shelter as the disciples had done.
Look at yourself. You're living better than most kings or queens did back then. They didn't have hot and cold running water, toilets that flushed, disposals that instantly got rid of food scrapes, the luxury to talk to someone else in real-time anywhere in the world, a transportation option as you enjoy that they could never imagine, a box that brings images live to your very face, selections of entertainment like nothing ever seen before in the history of the world... I could go on and on.

I'm not buying your comparison about shoes, clothing or anything else you care to mention. I'm here, at this moment in time, living in a world that offers more than the pharoahs of Egypt could dream of and like just about everyone else taking most of it for granted. You type out a message on a computer, a marriage of state-of-the-art electronics and luxury, that can be seen from just about anywhere in the world by just about anyone and you want to talk about the fact that Jesus didn't wear expensive shoes.

I know what your saying and I know what you're getting at but the ideal you preach simply isn't reality even for the most staunch of believers. You and I both live in this world and there's just no sense ignoring it or the availability of the shoes someone cares to wear.

Now, if you're talking about excess then maybe you have a point. Anything in excess has it's drawbacks whether it's outward appearance or the health of the spirit. But I don't think I can be condemned for an earring in my ear listening to Simon and Garfunkel while a cross swinging from a chain around my neck keeps rythme with my feet on my way to the Men's Breakfast at church on a saturday morning. Especially if I'm one of the guys that has to fry the bacon. :-D